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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3930 - September 10, 2018, 01:12 PM

    Quote
    Necessarily both. Because what is written must be understandable. Otherwise there's no point in writing for people who don't understand anything.


    Don't agree. There are a lot of books written that nobody reads or understands. We dont understand a big chunk of the Quran now, we just assume that when the Quran was just out, people did understand... No, I think the Quran was lying on the shelf. The message was much simpler like eg. you can raid the neighboring village, take the property, kill the men, enslave the women, or its ok to have 4 wives and as many concubines as you want, or its ok to marry your cousin...

    Things like that, practical stuff that attracted people to the new faith. Not the boring Surah 2 that never seems to end...

    Another example of not read texts: who reads the papal encyclicks ?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3931 - September 10, 2018, 01:17 PM



    "@PhDniX I have a memeworthy ? for you. In a certain discussion I am having, an individual states this: "I consider that Quranic Arabic linguistically was very intermingled with Syriac, so much so that it seems (to me...) very difficult to know  which is purely Syriac or Arabic.̈"


    I also said that it was possibly an artificial language. Wink
    And I'm taking into account the rasm, not what was added by later Arabs who have adapted it to their language to make understandable to them the Quranic Arabic. That they have many difficulty to understand.

    Quote
    Van Putten: Anyone that manages to call the Arabic of the Quran a mixed language has clearly has no idea what a mixed language looks like. Quranic Arabic is just a form of  Arabic with perhaps slightly-more-than-average Aramaic loanwords

    .
    And I'm taking into account the rasm, not what was added by later Arabs.


    Quote
    This makes sense, as a religious text that borrows liberally from both Judaism and Christianity, it would have been a miracle if it had not contained any Aramaic loanwords. "

    Idem. As there is no Syriac presence in the NW peninsula evidenced...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3932 - September 10, 2018, 01:22 PM

    Altara,

    Quote
    Idem. As there is no Syriac presence in the NW peninsula evidenced...


    Can you explain the above?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3933 - September 10, 2018, 01:31 PM

    They need above all to be known as cultural and scriptural centres heavily influenced by Syriac Christianity, when considering the Quranic text. There is nothing like this in the NW peninsula.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XELIg_Aycm4&t=248s
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3934 - September 10, 2018, 01:53 PM

    Don't agree. There are a lot of books written that nobody reads or understands.

    Today yes. But the authors write for people (even small); if not, they would not  be published.
    In Late antiquity or Antiquity nope. As writing mobilize important means (men, money, etc)

    Quote
    We dont understand a big chunk of the Quran now, we just assume that when the Quran was just out, people did understand...


    We suppose logically that the text was not written to be kept by its authors in an armoire. Because 'scripture' is to communicate something to someone. If not, it never would have been invented.What's the point of writing then?
    For pleasure?
    Nope ; we know why writing has been invented : to communicate informations that memory was not enough to kept, when organization of  states (3500 BC in Sumer) necessitated it. Especially financial stuff (grains, money, etc). All of this is proven as the first written artefact are theses stuff.
    And then more and more different registers stuff was added (laws, religion, etc).



  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3935 - September 10, 2018, 02:03 PM

    I do not see that  Van Putten has anything to do with this centre for the study of Islam and Society, which is directed by Petra Sijpesteijn who is earning much money from the gulf Arabs.

    Well canaaniteshift., As I already mentioned innumerable times on this forum that "I AM NOT IN THIS FIELD OF EARLY HISTORY OF FAITHS".. and I don't earn my bread & butter from investigating faiths.,  so

    "I know nothing
    I see nothing and
    I hear nothing.."


    but i was under the impression  that Ahmad Al-Jallad., Marijn van Putten., The Lady Petra Sijpesteijn ., Haneen Omari .,  Said Reza Huseini and ..and Prof. Peter ACE Webb.....  are all under the same wavelength with reference to early Islam ., I could be wrong  dear canaaniteshift.,    but..but who makes more money out of Oil wealth of Sand lands depends upon who knows how to butter right sheikh  in those lands ..

    As far as Van Putten and you on the early history of Quran is concerned
     
    Quote
    Quote
    Van Putten did respond and he scoffed at the idea.

    Quote
    "@PhDniX I have a memeworthy ? for you. In a certain discussion I am having, an individual states this: "I consider that Quranic Arabic linguistically was very intermingled with Syriac, so much so that it seems (to me...) very difficult to know  which is purely Syriac or Arabic.̈"


    Quote
    Van Putten: Anyone that manages to call the Arabic of the Quran a mixed language has clearly has no idea what a mixed language looks like. Quranic Arabic is just a form of  Arabic with perhaps slightly-more-than-avarage Aramaic loanwords. This makes sense, as a religious text that borrows liberally from both Judaism and Christianity, it would have been a miracle if it had not contained any Aramaic loanwords. "


    that is OK ., well Van Putten  can scoff at  that idea  ., you  can do it and Peter Webb and Petra Sijpesteijn ., Haneen Omari .,  Said Reza Huseini   etc..etc can scoff at that idea .. but trust me PEOPLE WILL EXPLORE THAT IDEA., I wish dr. Patricia Crone was still alive  to say few words on that ..

    Quote
    And do not worry dear yeezeevee, ashhadu an laa ilaaha wa laa tanzeela. 2nd generation atheist of Calvinist extraction. I do not BELIEVE anything I am convinced by good arguments.

    Hmmm  Cheesy   OK.. NO PROPHETS AND NO RASULALLAH??

     
    Quote
    For me the linguistic arguments for an Arabian origin specifically the oasis towns of West (= Hijaz) Arabia (not deserts) made by what altara calls anglo saxon scholars is most convincing. I am not yet convinced of any connection with a Mohammad, historical or imaginary.

    well don't worry about Altara .. he is racist .... fascist  and highly biased

    So say that again., did I get this right??

    Quote
    "I am not yet convinced of any connection with a Mohammad, historical or imaginary"


    You mean to say "Muhammad" Prophet of Islam has NO CONNECTION WITH QURAN??  

    And next question  

    do you think that there was a person in early Islam as leader  WITH A NAME "MUHAMMAD" without having any connection to Quran??

    You know I am learning a lot on early Islam  reading your Leiden group

    with best regards
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3936 - September 10, 2018, 02:18 PM

    1/I've gone from nothing. Could be this or that.
    2/You have not still evidenced the contrary.




    Yes you have. You earlier denied any connection with Nabataean. Evidence to the contrary? The hundreds of transitional Nabataeo-Arabic inscriptions from Northwest Arabia, showing the evolution from Nabataean to the Arabic script in the intervening time period is exactly evidence to the contrary.

    No, saying there isn't only one script is not a valid argument at all ; it is simply an observation. The argument would be showing how one script influences the other and you have not shown that at all. You are saying : you have not demonstrated the opposite. Well I have done nothing  but Nehme and Macdonald have demonstrated the opposite in the form of hundreds of inscriptions in the transitional script. So the evidence is there and the argument is there. No matter how much hand waving you do, you aren't a Jedi and those evidences are not going away.



    Yes, I have given no proof, (like you), but I have given arguments that lead to think that your arguments are weak and must not be accepted because they consider only one piece of the issue : technical stuff. I'm afraid that it is not enough to convince anybody, except only those who are already convinced by personal and non scientific reasons.



    Altara, Science is built on the technical details. This statement illustrates your unfamiliarity with this subject matter. You see Altara you are one of the few convinced by these non arguments because of your own personal non-scientific convictions. It is a simple matter to SHOW the influence of Syriac on the development of Arabic. You cannot SHOW that. Nehme and Macdonald have shown the opposite in the details, and that is how to demonstrate arguments, altara, the details. I believe they take into account all the EVIDENCE. And there is no evidence for Syriac, I'm sorry.

    And do not answer questions for me Altara. I followed the argument of Nehme that Arabic script developed in NW Arabia political centres, oasises. There are many areas identifies as loci, for example, Tabuk, Al-Ula, Dumat, and yes even Yathrib. Nobody needs to talk about Mecca, these are documented places and places where Nabataean, Transitional Nabataean, and even early Arabic inscriptions are found. There is evidence for all three stages here backing up her claims. You know what isn't here, Altara? Syriac. You lack the evidence, and you are convinced by your own circularity. And you confuse the ' Syriac Christanity presence in the Quran with the development of the Arabic script. These are two different issues. As for the Rasm of the Quran being Syriac, when Van Putten talks about Quranic Arabic he MEANS the language Rasm, which is in no sense Syriac or Aramaic or anything of the like.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3937 - September 10, 2018, 02:24 PM


    As far as Van Putten and you on the early history of Quran is concerned
     
    that is OK ., well Van Putten  can scoff at  that idea  ., you  can do it and Peter Webb and Petra Sijpesteijn ., Haneen Omari .,  Said Reza Huseini   etc..etc can scoff at that idea .. but trust me PEOPLE WILL EXPLORE THAT IDEA., I wish dr. Patricia Crone was still alive  to say few words on that ..
    Hmmm  Cheesy   OK.. NO PROPHETS AND NO RASULALLAH??



    Dear Yeezeevee, is not Van Putten exploring that idea? Is not his opinion the very result of his exploration? Of course! I do not know what Jallad or Sijpesteijn's opinion on the Quran is and I do not know who these other people are you mention. Peter Webb is very traditional thinking about language I suppose.

    What is this Yeezeevee ? reverse declaration of faith?  Cheesy From my study as a interested person a scholar in training I have not seen definitive proof for Islamic tradition's muhammad in the Quran.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3938 - September 10, 2018, 04:34 PM

    Quote
    The hundreds of transitional Nabataeo-Arabic inscriptions from Northwest Arabia, showing the evolution from Nabataean to the Arabic script in the intervening time period is exactly evidence to the contrary.


    Nope, as it is not the only script present like in Europe, where it is an internal "evolution" (yawn)...

    Quote
    saying there isn't only one script is not a valid argument at all ; it is simply an observation.


    It is an argument which shows that what was possible in Europe namely an internal "evolution" is specific to this place because there was only one script. And that "internal" evolution is not the common way  when people are  in contact with other scripts, (Japan/China/Korea, etc) which is the case of Arabic people since we know (very well) where they are. And they are principally in Iraq and Syria from the middle of the 4th.c (and somehow before). Iraq and Syria are the place of the Syriac script.
    You have nothing to respond to this argument.

    Quote
    The argument would be showing how one script influences the other and you have not shown that at all.


    Not at all. An argument is an objection showing that what you taking as granted (and must be accepted)  has only took into account one dimension of the issue ; the technical one.  This flawed method, make of "Arabic" an "exception" in the story of scripture which is that when people are in contact and have the same pattern language there is necessarily and naturally borrowings. Except when there is one script (the Europe case).
    Arabic would be an "exception" in the entire planet according to Jallad et al. I do not think so. There is no logical and scientific reason to this "exception". Not a piece of one.
    These people are not historians, they are applying a model which do not exist nowhere else. They do not make scholarship.
    There is, in contrast, many "personnal" reasons, when it deals with the people who affirm this "exception". They are Arabs (Nehmé/Jallad). They are, from the Jallad part, Muslim, believing in the pure genuine Arabic origin of the Quran, affirmation which is slowly destroyed, in view of the heavily Syriac influence in the Quranic text. What is left to Arabs supposed to be the best of the best (Quran...)?
    Nothing.
    I think theses reasons may explain the affirmations of an "exception" whereas they do not give any scientific ground about it. Worst, they do not even compare what happened elsewhere in the same cultural and geographical situation with multiple scripts, same family language. "No no! said they, for Arabic script it is different! Sure guys, believe us, see the technical stuff!".
    It is not scholarship.
     Especially when all can see where we come from about the 2nd c. Nabatean script and where we arrive when we deals with Quranic Script as seen in a Syriac environment in Zebed and Harran.
    Quote
     that Arabic script developed in NW Arabia political centres, oasises. There are many areas identifies as loci, for example, Tabuk, Al-Ula,There are many areas identifies as loci, for example, Tabuk, Al-Ula, Dumat, and yes even Yathrib. Nobody needs to talk about Mecca, these are documented places and places where Nabataean, Transitional Nabataean, and even early Arabic.There is evidence for all three stages here backing up her claims.  You know what isn't here, Altara?  Syriac.


     The fact that we found Quranic scrip in Tabuk, Al-Ula, proves nothing of an internal "evolution" without any external influence. Syriac has no need to be present, as inscription,  in Tabuk, Al-Ula, Dumat, to influence or creating a script considering the situation.  Could be learned by others people and spread. Three stages as internal "evolution" whereas there is other scripts where the Arabs are much more massively present than in the peninsula, would be an "exception". This "exception" is not even mentioned by Jallad et al. because they cannot explain it. They do not do their work.
    Quote
    You lack the evidence, and you are convinced by your own circularity. And you confuse the ' Syriac Christanity presence in the Quran with the development of the Arabic script.


    I have objections to what Jallad et al. affirm for Arabic, namely the "exception" of Arabic as 500 years of internal "evolution" is for me untenable taking into account the environment.

    Quote
    And you confuse the ' Syriac Christanity presence in the Quran with the development of the Arabic script. These are two different issues.


    Not at all. I confuse nothing. It is necessarily linked, one way or another.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3939 - September 10, 2018, 07:14 PM

    Altara states:
    > > It is an argument which shows that what was possible in Europe namely an internal "evolution" is specific to this place because there was only one script. And that "internal" evolution is not the common way  when people are  in contact with other scripts, (Japan/China/Korea, etc) which is the case of Arabic people since we know (very well) where they are. And they are principally in Iraq and Syria from the middle of the 4th.c (and somehow before). Iraq and Syria are the place of the Syriac script.
    You have nothing to respond to this argument.

    In all of those cases, the influence of the other script is demonstrable. In the Arabic case it is not. And furthermore, there is zero evidence for Syriac script in the areas where the Arabic script developed. It is circular inference. You say the Arab people are in Iraq and Syria from the middle of the 4th c. That is fine, but there is no evidence for the Arabic script in these place. Only once outside the province of Arabia in Zebed and clearly exceptional considering the distribution now, all clustered in NW Arabia and S. Levant. Your arguments are very weak in fact - you assume the Arabic script had to evolve in Iraq and Syria because Arabs were there, well there were obviously Arabs in NW Arabia and provincia Arabia. Why not by the same argument say it evolved in the latter places. If you did that, you would have the support of the transitional Nabataeo-Arabic inscriptions to explain its emergence. By claiming it comes from Iraq and Syria you have nothing to explain its emergence, not a single inscription until the 6th c., and then ONLY ONE, the few names in the Zebed inscription, which is not the earliest and clearly an outlier. The difference between you and MAcdonald is that he bases his argument on actual evidence. Yours is based on inference and introspection with complete disregard for the evidence. Also your claim that scripts only develop gradually when there is not another script present is simply a claim you invented from nothing. This is not established and we should no tassume it. If Syriac influenced Arabic, then show it.

    But let us back up a moment. Your appeal to religious reasons for the argument that Arabic comes from from Nabataean make no sense. This is not Jallad's idea; I would say Macdonald made the conclusive argument then followed up by new discoveries by Nehme. So stick to the arguments and facts and stop trying to read intentions or minds. We can argue back and forth for centuries this way. Let us try to center things.

    Whether you agree or not, the Nabataean script continues to evolve after the fall of Petra. This evolution that happens in Northwest Arabia makes the letters more cursive and the connecting bar move towards the bottom of most letters. The particular letter shapes develop from Nabataean, from the looped alif to the tailed alif, the distinction between d and r, not found in Syriac, the merger of d and k, except the connecting factor, the placement of the dots, the tailed yod, the loss of samekh, the shape of the open ayn, the sin/shin that lays flat. all of these are isogloss of Nabataean that develop in the Nabataeo-Arabic script attested in Northwest Arabia. None of these developments are plausibly explained as Syriac influence, rather gradual changes from ink writing. All of these changes are reflected in the final form of the Arabic script in the 6th century. The writing rules and shapes already emerge here with no Syriac influence. This is not controversial. The logical thing is then to link the late 5th century Arabic script with the latest phase of the Nabataeo-Arabic script in the middle of the 5th century.

    So Altara, what does Syriac explain? Where does it come in? Why do you even need it? There is no evidence for it. You say it doesn't need to be present in an inscription, then tell me what evidence is there for it? Nothing but introspection. Anyway the appeal to Syriac explains nothing about the Arabic script. Is it only because you think it is present therefore it MUST have done something? This is not an argument.

    Finally, the Arabic script evolved before anyone decided to write a Quran down so, no, they are not necessarily linked.

    I rest this case Altara, produce a valid argument for how Syriac explains anything about the emergence of the Arabic script based on evidence. Otherwise, you are the same as Lumbard and all these folks you criticise, making introspective arguments neglecting the facts and evidence.

    Gabish?


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3940 - September 10, 2018, 08:23 PM

    As I have yet not read Powers's monograph (only his latest article), I can't not judge every dot and tittle of his argument. My suspicion would be that it was a simple haplographical mistake. Such mistakes are indeed very common. To quote Adam Gacek: “Omissions. These are the most common errors in Arabic manuscripts. Here mention should be made of haplography, which is the error of writing a sequence of letters (or a word) once, when they should have been written twice.” One does not need postulate such an extraordinary as Power's does in order to explain the correction. In line with Ockham's razor prefer the simplest explanation available.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3941 - September 10, 2018, 09:22 PM

    Canaanite,

    If Arabic is the result of an internal evolution from Nabatean, why was it so stable from at least 515 (Zebed inscription) for the next centuries?  Had it found its final perfect form?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3942 - September 10, 2018, 09:54 PM

    It is not stable after that. It continues to evolve. Final waws on personal names a hold over of nabataean wawation disappears. The shape of the ha evolves. Aramaicisms bar etc disappear. Stacking of letters develop in Islamic period. Etc. It keeps changing. Then different calligraphic forms develop. That is how things can be dated paleographically even after that period.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3943 - September 10, 2018, 10:33 PM

    Quote
    In all of those cases, the influence of the other script is demonstrable. In the Arabic case it is not.


    Then Arabic  would be the "exception" of the entire planet? Are you serious? Due to what?  You have no response (as usual, it can be noted...) to that.
    Quote
    And furthermore, there is zero evidence for Syriac script in the areas where the Arabic script developed.


    There is zero evidence for Phoenician script  in the areas where the Greek script developed.

    Quote
    You say the Arab people are in Iraq and Syria from the middle of the 4th c. That is fine, but there is no evidence for the Arabic script in these place.


    What is the difference between Syria/Iraq and the peninsula (including not Yemen)?

    Quote
    Only once outside the province of Arabia in Zebed and clearly exceptional considering the distribution now, all clustered in NW Arabia and S. Levant.


    Then, what the Zebed does there? According to you it shouldn't even exist!

    Quote
    Your arguments are very weak in fact - you assume the Arabic script had to evolve in Iraq and Syria because Arabs were there, well there were obviously Arabs in NW Arabia and provincia Arabia. Why not by the same argument say it evolved in the latter places. If you did that, you would have the support of the transitional Nabataeo-Arabic inscriptions to explain its emergence.


    1/What I say is very simple : Arabic script (from Nabatean script of the 2nd c. itself product of Imperial Aramaic) has not evolved on his own. I do not think so, I'already explained why.
    2/ It did not "had to". It evolved under influence (or was created) and spread to Arabic speakers towards the peninsula. It was a script as we see it there, graffiti, etc. Not at all for what was Nabatean script (administration, commerce, etc)
    Quote
    By claiming it comes from Iraq and Syria you have nothing to explain its emergence, not a single inscription until the 6th c., and then ONLY ONE, the few names in the Zebed inscription, which is not the earliest and clearly an outlier.


    What I only claim here,  is that an internal evolution would be an exception on this planet considering the environment. This "exception" is not even mentioned by Jallad et al. because they cannot explain it.
    And this influenced evolution (which starts from the 2nd c. and lasts until Zebzd) is perfectly explainable when we consider the environment. It is not an "exception".
    Quote
    The difference between you and MAcdonald is that he bases his argument on actual evidence. Yours is based on inference and introspection with complete disregard for the evidence.


    Unfortunately, he is unable to explain this internal evolution surrounded by scripts.
    What you call "evidence" are not. It describes different stages of evolution. Theses stages come from where? Heaven? Nope from the outside. And outside is Syriac script.

    Quote
    Also your claim that scripts only develop gradually when there is not another script present is simply a claim you invented from nothing. This is not established and we should no tassume it.


    When there is only one script around, yes, it can develop on his own. When there is multiple scripts and same pattern of language, there are script borrowings (China/Japan/Korea, etc)
    Just give a same example of what you claim about Arabic!
    That does not exist (as far as I know Wink ) Arabic would be an exception! I do not think so.
    Quote
    Whether you agree or not, the Nabataean script continues to evolve after the fall of Petra. This evolution that happens in Northwest Arabia makes the letters more cursive

    Under the influence of what? Heaven? Alone? Why not, without other script around. With other script I do not think so.
    Quote
    None of these developments are plausibly explained as Syriac influence, rather gradual changes from ink writing.

    There was no ink for the Nabaeans before? Of course there was... Why this script would have to wait for ink to change? Whereas ink existed? You cannot be serious...
    Quote
    All of these changes are reflected in the final form of the Arabic script in the 6th century. The writing rules and shapes already emerge here with no Syriac influence.


    And I say that it did not change on his own, whereas Arabs are surrounded by Syriac priests, monks and bishops, in a scribal culture, and where Arabs are slowly converted to Christianity. Never seen elsewhere, and Arabic would be an exception? I do not think so at all. And you cannot convince me as you tell thing as if Arabs where isolated population, etc. This was not the case.
    Quote
    So Altara, what does Syriac explain? Where does it come in? Why do you even need it?


    It explains either the creation of what we see in Zebed, Dumat, Najran, etc. Either a long influence since the Nabatean. It comes in because it is the only Semitic script around heavily used. What you describe because of ink could be an influence from Syriac script read by Arabs who decided to copy the Syriac cursive script and to adapt it to their actual script. The cursive idea is come from others, not them (if the original script is the Nabatean script of the 2nd c.)  like all the others (China, Korea, Japan, etc) And the others are Syriac people.

    Quote
    Anyway the appeal to Syriac explains nothing about the Arabic script.


    It explains many things, the cursive, etc. I've already said my arguments and explained why the methodology used by Jallad et al. seems flawed to explain this evolution.

    Quote
    Is it only because you think it is present therefore it MUST have done something?

     

    Something else is present, in this case there is influence as this is Semitic language. It's logic. Arabic is not an exception on the entire planet. He has not evolved on his own as if it was on Mars, whereas we know what we know of the history of Orient.
    Or it's a miracle, like the Quran. I do not think (at all) that the Quran is a miracle.

    Quote
    produce a valid argument for how Syriac explains anything about the emergence of the Arabic script based on evidence.


    My evidence is that the methodology of Jallad et al. is flawed. It does not take into account the environment of Orient between 150 and 600, and it does not explain why Arabic would be so exceptional, that it developed alone whereas he is not. Thing that did not (as far as I know... ) happened nowhere.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3944 - September 10, 2018, 10:49 PM

    No Altara Arabic isn't the exception: all scripts change and evolve over time without the need of outside influence. Did the Greek book hand develop from Syriac influence? Did its cursive forms develop that way? Your thinking that Nabataean only developed cursive from the later period reflects your own ignorance of the data and the fact that you do not read macdonald closely. Already in the nahal hever nabataean papyri you have a highly cursive script with many of the letter shapes that appear on rock inscriptions centuries later. Before Christianity and before Syriac. So no you do not need Syriac to explain cursive. I listed the forms that are explained from Nabataean evolution. If you give only cursive due to Syriac , which is demonstrably not the case because of material pre dating even plausible Syriac contact , you clearly fail.  Nobody says zebed shouldn't exist. Clearly you have not read anything but islamic awareness site about this inscription. It can exist the way minaic inscriptions on crete exist -- people move but the peripheral exception is not the rule. Your response is just strawmen. Arabic is no exception and claiming that it developed from nabataean though gradual documented changes is not exceptional. In short cursive forms developed before introduction of syriac and continue to develop long after rise of islam.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3945 - September 11, 2018, 12:02 AM

    Quote
    No Altara Arabic isn't the exception: all scripts change and evolve over time without the need of outside influence.

    No.
    Quote
    Your thinking that Nabataean only developed cursive from the later period reflects your own ignorance of the data and the fact that you do not read macdonald closely


    Your thinking that Nabataean has developed alone. I do not think so considering that it was not an isolated population from other script. I do not think it is possible, as Arabic is not an exception on the entire planet. Likely, the Quran is not a miracle.
    Moreover, few scholars deals with this topic as they knew that it is controversial, they do not want to be involved.  All of this is easily understandable.

    Quote
    Already in the nahal hever nabataean papyri you have a highly cursive script with many of the letter shapes that appear on rock inscriptions centuries later.


    Sure. I'm the King of England.

    Quote
    If you give only cursive due to Syriac , which is demonstrably not the case because of material pre dating even plausible Syriac contact


    I'm still the King of England.

    Quote
    Nobody says zebed shouldn't exist. [...]  It can exist the way minaic inscriptions on crete exist -- people move but the peripheral exception is not the rule.


    Zebed is not peripheral. There is massive Arab population with Syriac and Roman population and not so far in the East there's even a Beth Arabayé.
    It is not  what I call (at all)  "peripheral." Without doubt, the Jallad et al. methodology in action. Justify this argument by taking as an example Minaic inscriptions in Crete shows that you really do not know what you're talking about ;  are you drunk?
    Quote
    Arabic is no exception and claiming that it developed from nabataean though gradual documented changes is not exceptional.


    The documented changes are not an argument that it was an internal evolution as you claim. As far as I know (maybe I'm wrong Wink ...) , it is an exception on the entire planet. I do not think that Nabatean script evolved alone in this area.  On Mars, surely.






  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3946 - September 11, 2018, 12:11 AM

    So we have reached the point where your counter arguments are claims to the throne of england and interplanetary travel. Checkmate altara.

    And to be serious i think you have no idea what the nabataean papyri from nahal hever are.

    You are the most memeworthy troll I've encountered. Too bad you don't publish anything.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3947 - September 11, 2018, 12:21 AM

    Where does the Quranic name “Yahya” come from? It’s supposed to be John the Baptist but Yahya is clearly a different name to Yuhanna. As far as I know there are no pre-Islamic references to Yahya. Apparently the rasm can be read as Yahya or Yuhanna (according to the Markus Gross paper that was linked a few pages back), so at some point the traditional qiraat misread the rasm as Yahya.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3948 - September 11, 2018, 12:32 AM

    The name Yaḥyā is mentioned on a Nabataean inscription dated to the year AD 316. Markus Gross is right: both words share the same skeletal (unpointed) text. One could thus reason that due to the absence of dots and vowels the text was at some point misread. But that is not the only available explanation, since the name is attested prior to the Quran and could be the way Arab Christians pronounced the name in their popular speech. 
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3949 - September 11, 2018, 07:15 AM

    concerning Yayyha or Yuhanna,

    I just dont get that these semitic people didnt massively switch over to a complete alphabet like the Greek one. It's obvious that even in the Semitic languages the pronunciation isn't fixed with this kind of script.

    If even the pronunciation of the name of God could get lost over time (Yawhe, Yehova...) or of Mohammed (apparently there is doubt here too), why didnt they just switch over to "the better " system???
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3950 - September 11, 2018, 07:22 AM

    Canaanite,

    Peripheral Zebed:

    1/ I tend to agree here with Altara not calling Zebed peripheral. Why would it be? It is not that we have so many more complete arabic 6 C inscriptions in the so called central/non-peripheral areas to prove the point. Only fragments over there, and a clear full blown Arabic in Zebed.

    2/Stability after Zebed: the changes (wawation, bar, he) you mentioned are very minor details. right into the 7th C, there is really very little change.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3951 - September 11, 2018, 09:39 AM

    The name Yaḥyā is mentioned on a Nabataean inscription dated to the year AD 316. Markus Gross is right: both words share the same skeletal (unpointed) text. One could thus reason that due to the absence of dots and vowels the text was at some point misread. But that is not the only available explanation, since the name is attested prior to the Quran and could be the way Arab Christians pronounced the name in their popular speech. 


    Interesting. Do you have a source for the inscription?

    Arab Christians do not pronounce the name that way. In the Arabic and Syriac Bibles, it’s always Yuhanna as far as I know. Even if the name Yahya is attested prior to the Qur’an, it’s unlikely that it was for John. The traditional qiraat seems to be an outlier here, so it’s more likely that it was a misreading that led to that name. It wouldn’t be the first time that’s happened in the Qur’an.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3952 - September 11, 2018, 09:45 AM

    Interview with Robert Hoyland
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2DjyGMHYS4M
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3953 - September 11, 2018, 10:50 AM

    Thanks Zeca, interesting interview of Hoyland.
    He says that Crone was his supervisor. Of Seeing... as his PhD dissertation?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3954 - September 11, 2018, 12:08 PM

    Yes. Crone was his teacher. Crone in fact had only one student - Hoyland.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3955 - September 11, 2018, 12:29 PM

    Canaanite,

    Peripheral Zebed:

    1/ I tend to agree here with Altara not calling Zebed peripheral. Why would it be? It is not that we have so many more complete arabic 6 C inscriptions in the so called central/non-peripheral areas to prove the point. Only fragments over there, and a clear full blown Arabic in Zebed.

    2/Stability after Zebed: the changes (wawation, bar, he) you mentioned are very minor details. right into the 7th C, there is really very little change.


    Dear Mundi:
    1/You have nine 6th century Arabic inscriptions from the Tabuk area including the only proper prose texts, three from Hawran region one from burqu and one from dumah. That is 14 from the former borders of Nabataea. Further 9 from Najran, and Arabian town. And only one from northern Syria. That is the very definition of peripheral. Also the zebed text is the most fragmentary of all of these. It doesn't matter if there were arabs there we shouldn't assume all who were called arabs wrote in Arabic script anyway. Maybe those ones used Syriac.

    2/ as for the stability of the script those are not small changes they are huge overhauls to the very logic of the writing system. Wawation perisited for centuries before disappearing in the 7th c. Also i forgot to mention the use of alif to spell internal long a , which is not attested at all in pre islamic arabic inscriptions. What would you count as a big change? Because if it is in letter shapes, the basic letter shapes were achieved long before zebed. And they continue to change in 9th c Arabic the ayn closes lam alif develops new shape etc. The idea that the Arabic script was frozen at any point is simple false.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3956 - September 11, 2018, 01:46 PM

    Yes. Crone was his teacher. Crone in fact had only one student - Hoyland.

    Hmm..  Mahgraye knows lots of stuff.,   

    Hello Mahgraye.. how are you doing?? did you ever meet her?? .. and what is your opinion on dr.  Michael Cook


    with best
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3957 - September 11, 2018, 01:47 PM

    Canaanite,

    You have a whole list of 6th C Arabic there. What is your source? I go with the Islamic awareness site, but maybe they havent updated yet...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3958 - September 11, 2018, 01:51 PM

    ....................You are the most memeworthy troll I've encountered. .........................

     
    No..no...nooooo., your post will read much better without such words dear  canaaniteshift
     

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3959 - September 11, 2018, 02:01 PM

    Canaanite,

    You have a whole list of 6th C Arabic there. What is your source? I go with the Islamic awareness site, but maybe they havent updated yet...


    No Islamic awareness is very outdated and the readings and interpretations are often incorrect too. Here is a nice sample of the tabuk inscriptions and i posted a tweet of the abd shams one before too : http://alsahra.org/?p=17938. I think the najran ones are well known. The duma one was published by nehme and the burqu one by jallad.

    Yeezeevee, I am sorry but I give Altara the benefit of the doubt assumung he is trolling. It's really unimpressive argumentation otherwise.
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