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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3960 - September 11, 2018, 02:02 PM
    Dear Yeezevee - Unfortunately, I never got the chance to meet her. As to Michael Cook, he is a great scholar.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3961 - September 11, 2018, 02:07 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on September 11, 2018, 02:02 PM
    Dear Yeezevee - Unfortunately, I never got the chance to meet her. As to Michael Cook, he is a great scholar.

    well you said  Crone had ONLY ONE STUDENT  so I was under the impression you closely followed and interacted with her
    Quote
    "Crone in fact had only one student "

     how did you know that??

    So Michael Cook  is a great scholar.., ., OK

     so what is your opinion on this from him

    I hope you can read through it..

    with best
    yeezevee
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3962 - September 11, 2018, 02:13 PM
    I am simply familiar with her and people who actually knew here. Besides, it is not an extraordinary fact anyways, ha ha. I will try to read the text you linked soon. At the moment, I am slightly busy.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3963 - September 11, 2018, 02:36 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on September 11, 2018, 02:13 PM
    I am simply familiar with her and people who actually knew here. Besides, it is not an extraordinary fact anyways, ha ha.

    .... I will try to read the text you linked soon. At the moment, I am slightly busy.

    Ok.... please read it at your convenience and tell me the Scholarship in it

    Now do you know dr. Asad   Ahmed

     
    Quote
    http://nes.berkeley.edu/Faculty-CVs/Ahmed_CV.pdf


    watch him in this tube..
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=th5JSZVWjKE

    and you can read him in this volume



    Islamic Cultures, Islamic Contexts: Essays in Honor of Professor Patricia Crone

    AND...AND   dear Mahgraye .. if you don't know Asad Ahmed .. just forget this post

    with best wishes
    yeezevee
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3964 - September 11, 2018, 02:42 PM
    I am familiar with Asad Q. Ahmed. What about him?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3965 - September 11, 2018, 03:12 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on September 11, 2018, 02:42 PM
    I am familiar with Asad Q. Ahmed. What about him?

    Ok..  do you know him??? and did you read him ((His publications are linked in the links of other post))

    and how about his work scholarship??
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3966 - September 11, 2018, 03:14 PM
    I am simply familiar with him. I watched parts of his debate that you linked. Was impressed. But I have note read anything he has written but I am also familiar with book link as well
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3967 - September 11, 2018, 03:18 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on September 11, 2018, 03:14 PM
    I am simply familiar with him. I watched parts of his debate that you linked. Was impressed. But I have note read anything he has written but I am also familiar with book link as well

      ok...good... good.,  that answers most my questions and problems with your posts on EARLY  ISLAMIC SCHOLARS  & THEIR WORKS  dear Mahgraye ..

    with best wishes
    yeezevee
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3968 - September 11, 2018, 03:26 PM
    Oh! What did it prove about me, if I may ask? Really intrigued.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3969 - September 11, 2018, 04:07 PM
    Cananite,

    I scientific write-up would be useful to back-up the claim what is peripheral and what is not. These desert inscriptions seem to be in quantity inverse proportional to the amount of people living there...

    Are these inscriptions pre islamic? How do you know?

    Do you ahve a map representing the lot? Would be really useful!
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3970 - September 11, 2018, 04:50 PM
    dear mundi,

    I am not a scholar (yet) so I do not have a scientific write up or studies of these texts but they have been discussed extensively by experts, although they are not yet published. They are pre-Islamic based on their dating, paleography, and language. I recommend you consult the experts on this material ask sean anthony or van putten or nehme or jallad or macdonald who have worked with these about them. I have and that is how i know about them in fact.

    As for the claim of peripherality ; just in terms of the inscriptions it is simple numbers. The map in Nehme's 2010 article really captures it. You can add with your own pen the tabuk dumah and burqu inscriptions to it and there you have it. Read Macdonald's edition of Zebed inscription in Fisher's Arabs and Empires rather than Islamic awareness. that is truly a terrible and misleading website.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3971 - September 11, 2018, 04:58 PM
    Quote from: mundi on September 11, 2018, 04:07 PM
    These desert inscriptions seem to be in quantity inverse proportional to the amount of people living there...


    Indeed. What you think?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3972 - September 11, 2018, 05:02 PM
    What is the implication? All fabricated or from a later period?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3973 - September 11, 2018, 05:05 PM
    They are not in inverse proportion at all. There are many scores more inscriptions from the north but just not in the Arabic script, in Greek and Aramaic. This clearly reflects the use of the script. Claims of fabrication are a cop-out ... might as well invoke ancient aliens, too. When it comes to basalt at least fabrication is impossible.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3974 - September 11, 2018, 05:07 PM
    Basalt:

    Why is forgery impossible? I know the patina changes, but is this a linear process?

    I do believe the Safaitic ones of Jallad are all genuine!
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3975 - September 11, 2018, 05:14 PM
    From my lessons on Safaitic, the oxidization of the rock takes centuries to achieve the color we encounter in ancient inscriptions. When it is carved today it is bright white. There was a tweet about this a while ago but I cannot recall it.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3976 - September 11, 2018, 05:23 PM
    Quote from: Altara on September 11, 2018, 04:58 PM
    Indeed. What you think?


    And this again underscores Altara's ignorance of all things epigraphic. There are over ten thousand inscriptions from Syria/Lebanon/Jordan (published in IGLS and other places), in Greek and Latin from the 1st to 6th c. AD. One, just one, of these is Arabic. While in the same time period from Northwest Arabia and former Nabataea you have fewer than one thousand inscriptions, and in the sixth century, all of them are in the Arabic script. This is an exact reflection of population density and the type of scripts used in these areas. More over, there are zero Syriac inscriptions from Northwest Arabia but many Greek and Latin ones and all phases of Nabataean.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3977 - September 11, 2018, 05:24 PM
    Safaitic:

    Not many would  dispute the authenticity of the safaitic inscriptions.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3978 - September 11, 2018, 05:26 PM
    Yes, but there are early Arabic inscriptions carved on Basalt, the same support. So for the same reasons these cannot be disputed either. For example, the  Yazid inscription.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3979 - September 11, 2018, 05:44 PM
    Dispute:

    The reason I don't dispute the Safaitic ones or am not even sceptic about them is their content. Same for Yazid inscription: surprising content.

    But claiming a patina CANNOT be forged would be naive.

    You are surrounded here be a group of sceptics. Don't expect us to believe. Contrary, expect us to question and doubt.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3980 - September 11, 2018, 05:46 PM
    What is the issue here? Do you guys think all of these inscriptions are fabricated or what? Not sure what is being debated.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3981 - September 11, 2018, 05:55 PM
    Quote from: mundi on September 11, 2018, 05:44 PM
    Dispute:

    The reason I don't dispute the Safaitic ones or am not even sceptic about them is their content. Same for Yazid inscription: surprising content.

    But claiming a patina CANNOT be forged would be naive.

    You are surrounded here be a group of sceptics. Don't expect us to believe. Contrary, expect us to question and doubt.


    I am a skeptic too, a doubter, exactly why I am here. The content then of the Arabic inscriptions I shared is equally surprising and difficult to explain, if you do not wish to accept the patina argument, but it remains valid.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3982 - September 11, 2018, 06:02 PM
    Guys, don't trust people about what they say about them (I'm this or that...) and who declares the contrary of what you read of them.  thnkyu
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3983 - September 11, 2018, 06:14 PM
    Maggraye,

    Just replying that a statement like "a basalt inscription cannot be forged" is probably not true. But I already said I don't doubt the inscriptions Jallad has found.

    Canaanite,

    Looking at the "heartland map" for 6C arabic: fig7.https://www.academia.edu/2106858/_A_glimpse_of_the_development_of_the_Nabataean_script_into_Arabic_based_on_old_and_new_epigraphic_material_in_M.C.A._Macdonald_ed_The_development_of_Arabic_as_a_written_language_Supplement_to_the_Proceedings_of_the_Seminar_for_Arabian_Studies_40_._Oxford_47-88

    Biggest concentration seems to be Sinai and around Madain Saleh. Hardly large population centres...

    It would ahve been good if Nehme had added the early islamic 7 C inscriptions. I think she stopped a century early...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3984 - September 11, 2018, 09:39 PM
    Quote
    Biggest concentration seems to be Sinai and around Madain Saleh. Hardly large population centres...

    Indeed. There is no large population centres in Sinai and  the peninsula. This one is void. Apart Yemen (including Najran) , NE Coast and Dumat.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3985 - September 11, 2018, 11:19 PM
    Quote
    Quote from: Mahgraye on September 11, 2018, 05:46 PM
    What is the issue here? Do you guys think all of these inscriptions are fabricated or what? Not sure what is being debated.

    Quote from: mundi on September 11, 2018, 06:14 PM
    Maggraye,

    Just replying that a statement like "a basalt inscription cannot be forged" is probably not true. But I already said I don't doubt the inscriptions Jallad has found.

     

    Hello  Mahgraye  what actually do  you mean by "forged"/fabricated

    fabricated by who ? and in what year do you think that  these inscriptions got fabricated??

    Quote from: mundi on September 11, 2018, 06:14 PM
    Canaanite,

    Looking at the "heartland map" for 6C arabic: fig7  of LAÏLA NEHMÉ WORK on "A glimpse of the development of the Nabataean script into Arabic  based on old and new epigraphic material"

    .......Biggest concentration seems to be Sinai and around Madain Saleh. Hardly large population centres...

    It would have been good if Nehme had added the early islamic 7 C inscriptions. I think she stopped a century early...

     

    that 2009 paper  is a good paper to carefully scan through dear mundi   thanks  ....
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3986 - September 11, 2018, 11:54 PM
    Quote
    Do you have a source for the inscription?

     

    Guillaume Dye and Manfred Kropp, “Le nom de Jésus (ʿĪsā) dans le Coran, et quelques autres noms bibliques: remarques sur l’onomastique coranique,” in Figures bibliques en islam, eds. Guillaume Dye and Fabien Nobilio (Bruxelles: E.M.E & Intercommunications, 2011), p. 182, with reference to Antonin Jaussen and Raphaël Savignac, Mission archéologique en Arabie II/1 (Paris: E. Leroux, 1914), p. 232, n° 386 (see also p. 228, n° 370).

    Quote
    Arab Christians do not pronounce the name that way.


    By that I simply meant that they pronounced it as such in their popular speech, as the form Yaḥyā might be a distortion of Yuḥa(n)nā, just like ʿĪsā.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3987 - September 12, 2018, 12:52 AM
    Quote from: Altara on September 11, 2018, 09:39 PM
    Indeed. There is no large population centres in Sinai and  the peninsula. This one is void. Apart Yemen (including Najran) , NE Coast and Dumat.



    There is no large population centres in Sinai but in Northwest Arabia there are major oasis settlements. The site of Hegra was inhabited throughout the pre Islamic period and after, as was Dumat. G. Charloux is excavating north in the region of Tabuk at some major sites soon, from what I hear. Read the excavation reports of the Madain Saleh expeditions to see about populations. There is no question that the population is less significant than the urban areas of Syria and Mesopotamia and that is shown in the inscriptions as well.  The number of texts produced in Syro-Mesopotamia areas dwarfs the number of inscriptions in Northwest Arabia. The fact that this place was peripheral and lightly populated allowed the Nabataean script to continue without much competition and develop. While NW Arabia is peripheral to empire it is the centre of the development of the Arabic script for exactly that purpose. When folk from this area begin to gain on the world stage, e.g. Ghassan, their script is promoted as a symbol (This is the argument of Hoyland), and you get what you find at Harran and indeed eventually in Zebed. While Zebed is not peripheral to empire, it is peripheral to Arabic.

    I do not know enough about the science of oxidization to argue on that point. I am sure there are those more knowledgable who can contribute.

    Mahgaraye, the article you linked on Isa is surprisingly badly argued. The name is to be derived from a group who were reading Mandaean but had no awareness of its pronunciation, and then for some reason rendered final o with Arabic <y> which was clearly <e> in Qoranic Arabic according to Van Putten conclusively. Could not the use of Yahya and Isa both be nativizations of the names, similar to how Arabs today might call a man named Joseph, Yusuf, making an etymological connection between the two names? Both of these names are attested pre Islamically, although with no biblical references.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3988 - September 12, 2018, 01:19 AM
    My understanding was that the authors (Dye and Kropp) argue that the Arabs arabicized a borrowed  word - in this caseʿĪsā - by adding an ʿayn, as was, and still is, as a common practice in spoken Arabic (to give one example: maccheroni to maʿkarûna, for instance). This hypothesis might account for the shift from YSWʿ to ʿYSW. In simpler term, this is how the name ʿĪsā came about: first, drop the final ʿayn in the Armean form YSÛʿ; second, shift from–ô to –â (as in Κôʿ); third,  shift from -š- to -s- (as in the Syriac Šlîmûn to Sulaymân); and fourth, add an ʿayn at the beginning, in conformity with practice in spoken Arabic.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3989 - September 12, 2018, 01:30 AM
    That explanation still requires that the word was loaned from an Aramaic without an Ayn, like Mandaic (they invoke Mandaic spellings though) and does not explain why <o> was written with yod. The suleyman example is invalid because the entire word was re worked into a diminutive pattern but more importantly alif maqsura did not signify final a but e. So this is the case of a shift of o to e which makes little sense.
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