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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3990 - September 12, 2018, 06:59 AM

    Arabic heartland:

    Hegra seems not to have been an inhabited town but only a necropolis, visited a few times a year (Cfr Dan gibson who is truly a Nabatean expert avant la lettre).

    Quote
    The number of texts produced in Syro-Mesopotamia areas dwarfs the number of inscriptions in Northwest Arabia.


    ?? In what script are these?

    I still dont get the argument of the Arabic heartland based on the finds. We have 2 6C inscriptions (Zebed and Haran) incorporated in high status cultural expressions, these are called peripheral, and the handful of grafitti in the mids of the desert are declared "heartland". I am not saying the theory is wrong, I think there needs to be more evidence to prove the case.

    I guess the N-W Arabia region has a lot of sandstone and is ideal for grafitti? Maybe also bc of its sparse population, chances of surviving 1500 yrs are better that in the big arab population centres?

    I just dont see any logic of bedouin types of oasis dwellers culturally competing with the highly sophisticated Arab city dwellers of Damascus or Aleppo and winning the plight. Evidence needs to be strong to follow this counter-intuitive logic.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3991 - September 12, 2018, 09:52 AM

    Canaanite,

    I am looking for a chart of the complete Nabatean alphabet how it evolved into Arabic in the articles you linked. Can't seem to find it. Did you see it?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3992 - September 12, 2018, 11:50 AM

    Comment passing through: as to the origin(s) of the Arabic script(s), the French school accepts that the Arabic script(s) derives from the Nabataean, but add that Syriac played a role in the formation of the cursive nature of the Arabic one. This somehow ties into what a well-respected scholar once said concerning this very topic: “a Nabataean mother and a Syriac tutor.”

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3993 - September 12, 2018, 12:20 PM

    There is no material or literary evidence that Christianity was in any way widespread in 7th century Western Arabia. The presence was at best marginal. Note, however, that this assessment is not due to lack of evidence (Guillaume Dye, “Mapping the Sources of the Qurʾanic Jesus,” Paper for the 8th Nangeroni Meeting, Florence 12–16 June 2017, p. 3, n. 7, with reference to Francois Villeneuve, “La résistance des cultes bétyliques d'Arabie face au monothéisme: de Paul à Barsauma et à Muhammad,” in Le problème de la christianisation du monde antique, ed. Hervé Inglebert, Paris: Editions Picard, 2010, pp. 219–31.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3994 - September 12, 2018, 12:32 PM

    Interesting paper of Segovia : https://www.academia.edu/34630485/Reimagining_the_Early_Quranic_Milieu_Conference_Paper
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3995 - September 12, 2018, 12:51 PM

    There is no material or literary evidence that Christianity was in any way widespread in 7th century. Western Arabia. The presence was at best marginal. Not that this assessment is not due to lack of evidence (Guillaume Dye, “Mapping the Sources of the Qurʾanic Jesus,” Paper for the 8th Nangeroni Meeting, Florence 12–16 June 2017, p. 3, n. 7, with reference to Francois Villeneuve, “La résistance des cultes bétyliques d'Arabie face au monothéisme : de Paul à Barsauma et à Muhammad,” in Le problème de la christianisation du monde antique, ed. Hervé Inglebert, Paris: Editions Picard, 2010, pp. 219–31.


    We can add to this what Dye says in the 4 last minutes of this lecture (French). about the  "at best marginal Christian presence" in North Western peninsula (Mecca/Medina) of today relatively to what the Quranic text gives as information about its knowledge of Christianity. : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XELIg_Aycm4
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3996 - September 12, 2018, 01:08 PM

    Quote
    Interesting paper of Segovia


    Thanks for this. On the very first page where Segovia discusses Sinai's view that Q 23:6 is a later addition made me immediately think of traditional Christians sexual morality.

    Quote
    We can add to this what Dye says in the 4 last minutes of this lecture (French). about the  "at best marginal Christian presence" in North Western peninsula (Mecca/Medina) of today relatively to what the Quranic text gives as information about its knowledge of Christianity.


    Thanks, again. Could you summarize it?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3997 - September 12, 2018, 01:15 PM

    https://twitter.com/MemesSemitic/status/1039319033672290307
    This thread ought to be interesting for the purposes of our discussion, especially for Altara.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3998 - September 12, 2018, 01:28 PM

    Jessica Mutter reviews Peter Webb’s Imagining the Arabs: Arab Identity and the Rise of Islam

    https://marginalia.lareviewofbooks.org/tracing-construction-arab-identity-medieval-iraq/
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3999 - September 12, 2018, 01:48 PM


    Thanks, again. Could you summarize it?


    The Quran does not fit with a "at best marginal Christian presence" in North Western peninsula  relatively to what the Quranic text gives as information about its knowledge of Christianity.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4000 - September 12, 2018, 01:58 PM

    Oh! Yeah. 100 % correct. Such a marginal presence could not have given rise to the Quranic corpus. As Dye says, the Quran displays a strong Christian context.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4001 - September 12, 2018, 02:06 PM

    highly sophisticated Arab city dwellers of Damascus or Aleppo

    What ‘highly sophisticated Arab city dwellers of Damascus or Aleppo’? - given that we’re talking about the pre-Islamic period when the main languages of literacy in these cities would have been Syriac and Greek (maybe also Latin for some purposes). It’s questionable what ‘Arab’ means before Islam but if what we’re talking about is people speaking dialects that modern linguists would classify as forms of Arabic then probably they were present in cities like Damascus and Aleppo - but most likely as people coming from a pastoralist background in the rural hinterland and for the most part not as members of the literate elite.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4002 - September 12, 2018, 02:23 PM

    Where Do Languages Go to Die?  The tale of Aramaic, a language that once ruled the Middle East and now faces extinction..


    Quote
    If a Middle Eastern man from 2,500 years ago found himself on his home territory in 2015, he would be shocked by the modern innovations, and not just electricity, airplanes, and iPhones. Arabic as an official language in over two dozen countries would also seem as counterintuitive to him as if people had suddenly started keeping aardvarks as pets.

    In our time-traveler’s era, after all, Arabic was an also-ran tongue spoken by obscure nomads. The probability that he even spoke it would be low. There were countless other languages in the Middle East in his time that he’d be more likely to know.
    Quote
    His idea of a “proper” language would have been Aramaic, which ruled what he knew as the world and served, between 600 and 200 B.C.E., as the lingua franca from Greece and Egypt, across Mesopotamia and Persia, all the way through to India

    . Yet today the language of Jesus Christ is hardly spoken anywhere, and indeed is likely to be extinct within the next century. Young people learn it ever less. Only about half a million people now speak Aramaic—compared to, for example, the five and a half million people who speak Albanian.

    How does a language go from being so big to being on the verge of dying out entirely?

    One clue lies in its geographic fragmentation: Today there is no one “Aramaia” where the language is spoken. Its varieties are now used in small, obscure communities spread far apart across Iran, Turkey, Iraq, Syria, Armenia, and Georgia. There are also expatriate communities of speakers scattered even further away, in Chicago, as well as Paramus and Teaneck in New Jersey. Another indicator of the language’s gradual dissolution amid political discontinuity is the number of names it goes under nowadays. In many historical sources, the language is referred to as “Chaldean,” after one of the Aramaic-speaking dynasties that ruled Babylon when it was the glittering center of Mesopotamian civilization between the seventh and the fourth centuries B.C.E.
    Quote
    Because a Syrian dialect of Aramaic is especially well-preserved in writing and is still used for Christian liturgy in the Middle East, Turkey, and even India, one also hears often of Syriac. Some modern speakers of Aramaic call their variety Assyrian, others Mandaic.


    Aramaic, then, is in a splintered and tenuous state. Yet it was the English of its time—a language that united a large number of distinct peoples across a vast region, a key to accessing life beyond one’s village, and a mark of sophistication to many.

    The Aramaeans—according to Biblical lore named for Noah’s grandson Aram—started as a little-known nomadic group. But they were seekers, and by the 11th century B.C.E. they ruled large swaths of territory in Mesopotamia, encompassing parts of modern-day Iraq, Syria, and Turkey, including, for a spell, the city of Babylon itself. On the basis of this expansion alone, however, theirs would likely have become just one of various languages of the area that briefly enjoyed fame and then vanished in the endless game of musical chairs that was ancient Middle Eastern politics

    . The Aramaeans themselves were in Babylon only temporarily: In 911 B.C.E., the Assyrians, who spoke a language called Akkadian, ousted them. But the Assyrians unwittingly helped the Aramaeans’ language extinguish their own.

    Namely, the Assyrians deported Aramaic-speakers far and wide, to Egypt and elsewhere. The Assyrians may have thought they were clearing their new territory, but this was like blowing on a fluffy milkweed and thinking of it as destruction rather than dissemination: The little seeds take root elsewhere. Aramaic had established itself as the language of authority and cross-cultural discourse in Babylon and beyond, and with language as with much else, old habits die hard. People were soon learning Aramaic from the cradle, no longer just in one ruling city, but throughout the Fertile Crescent stretching from the Persian Gulf through northern Arabia to the Nile.

    Even the Assyrians found it easier to adjust to Aramaic than to impose Akkadian, just as in the ninth century C.E. Scandinavian Vikings invading England learned English instead of imposing their Norse.

    Here is also why Jesus and other Jews lived in Aramaic, and why goodly portions of the Hebrew Bible are actually in Aramaic. The two languages are part of the same Semitic family, but still, when the Book of Daniel switches into Aramaic for five chapters because Chaldeans are being addressed, it’s rather as if Cervantes had switched into Italian in Don Quixote for the tale of the Florentine nobleman. So dominant was Aramaic that the authors of the Bible could assume it was known to any audience they were aware of. Hebrew, for them, was local.

    Aramaic truly got around—even to places where no one had ever actually spoken it, in the form of its alphabet, on which both Hebrew and Arabic writing were based. By the time the Persians won the next round of Mesopotamian musical chairs in the 500s B.C.E.,

    Aramaic was so well-entrenched that it seemed natural to maintain it as the new empire’s official language, instead of using Persian. For King Darius, Persian was for coins and magnificent rock-face inscriptions. Day-to-day administration was in Aramaic, which he likely didn’t even know himself. He would dictate a letter in Persian and a scribe would translate it into Aramaic. Then, upon delivery, another scribe would translate the letter from Aramaic into the local language. This was standard practice for correspondence in all the languages of the empire.

    And it was a skill indeed, as no one would call Aramaic especially user-friendly. Anyone who has found Arabic tough going, or thinks back on the Hebrew they likely didn’t really learn in Hebrew school, would recognize the same obstacles in Aramaic. Plus more, such as that nouns came in different forms depending on whether they were being used in an ordinary way linked to other nouns, or being emphasized.

    Quote
    Like many other languages, Aramaic shows that approachability has nothing to do with why a language reigns, despite claims that English has been so successful because it’s relatively easy to learn its basics. After Alexander the Great conquered Persia in the fourth century B.C.E., for instance, Greek, itself an exceptionally complicated language, eventually edged out Aramaic as Eurasia’s lingua franca (though Aramaic held on in places like Judea, meaning it was almost certainly Jesus’s native language).

     

    Arabic, again, isn’t easy, and Russian, spoken by countless millions, is so horrifically complex that part of me always wonders whether it is an elaborate hoax.

    In any case, the Greeks were pushier about imposing their language than the Persians. Later came the spread of Islam, beginning in the seventh century C.E., amid which Arabic, as a vehicle of religion, was readily adopted. Hence the situation today, where the idea that any language but Arabic was ever dominant in the Middle East comes as a surprise.

    At this point, I am supposed to write that English’s preeminence could end as easily as Aramaic’s. Actually, however, I doubt it: I suspect that English will hold on harder and longer than any language in history. It happened to rise to its current position at a time when three things had happened, profoundly transformative enough to stop the music, as it were: print, widespread literacy, and an omnipresent media.

    Together, these things can drill a language into international consciousness in a historically unprecedented way, creating a sense of what is normal, cosmopolitan, cool even—arbitrary but possibly impregnable.

    If the Chinese, for example, rule the world someday, I suspect they will do it in English, just as King Darius ruled in Aramaic and Kublai Khan, despite speaking Mongolian, ruled China through Chinese translators in the 13th century C.E. Aramaic held sway at a time when a lingua franca was more fragile than it is today.

    But at least Aramaic had its 15 minutes of fame—actually, more like an hour or two. Just as today, when Nike can expect humans worldwide to understand the meaning of “JUST DO IT” on signs, the Gospel of Matthew quotes Jesus as saying Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?—“Lord, Lord, why have you forsaken me?”—in Aramaic. After all, that is what Jesus would actually have said, and surely the world knows—or knew—their Aramaic.



    Well that is nice to know and that is written by  JOHN MCWHORTER teaches linguistics at Columbia University. He is the author of The Power of Babel, Our Magnificent Bastard Tongue, What Language Is, The Language Hoax, and Talking Back, Talking Black.

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4003 - September 12, 2018, 02:34 PM

    https://twitter.com/MemesSemitic/status/1039319033672290307
    This thread ought to be interesting for the purposes of our discussion, especially for Altara.


    It is interesting to note that Imbert stay outside of the topic, where there is Nehmé, Jallad and MCM.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4004 - September 12, 2018, 02:53 PM

    Maybe someone should ask Françoise Briquel-Chatonnet what her current position is.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4005 - September 12, 2018, 03:11 PM

    What ‘highly sophisticated Arab city dwellers of Damascus or Aleppo’? - given that we’re talking about the pre-Islamic period when the main languages of literacy in these cities would have been Syriac and Greek (maybe also Latin for some purposes).


    At least they might be more "sophisticated" than those of the peninsula (except Dumat, Najran, etc) due to their environment. Religious context brings them much more "sophistication" than a void one.
    Moreover, some pastoralists learn Greek script to write their Arabic. They learn this (at the origin) by social interaction with Greek speakers who taught them.

    Quote
    It’s questionable what ‘Arab’ means before Islam

    It’s questionable for ‘Arab’ themselves. Not for the others since it is the others who named them like this.
    “The history of pre-Islamic ‘Arabs’ ought therefore be approached afresh as the history of the Muslim invention of pre-Islamic ‘Arabs’,”
    Webb is right. But there's one point : invention through the filters of Quranic concepts : paganism/jahaliyya. These concepts erase almost totally for the reader who believe the Quran, the Arabs past that it is historically recorded.Thus, it can be forgotten.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4006 - September 12, 2018, 03:15 PM

    Imbert is French, also.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4007 - September 12, 2018, 03:33 PM

    At least they might be more "sophisticated" than those of the peninsula (except Dumat, Najran, etc) due to their environment. Religious context brings them much more "sophistication" than a void one.
    Moreover, some pastoralists learn Greek script to write their Arabic. They learn this (at the origin) by social interaction with Greek speakers who taught them.

    Wouldn’t it be more likely that you’d expect to find literacy in Arabic in towns where the surrounding countryside was mainly Arabic speaking and so local elites were also likely to be Arabic speakers. This could apply to the more arid fringes of Palestine and Syria as well as to oasis towns in Arabia. 
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4008 - September 12, 2018, 03:41 PM

    Maybe someone should ask Françoise Briquel-Chatonnet what her current position is.


    Indeed it would be interesting. But as she did not say anything since her article (as far as I know...), it is possible that even if she thinks something, she won't tell considering that it is an highly controversial topic with an ethnical dimension. She has surely remarked that few scholars deals with this topic. As they knew that it is controversial, they do not want to be involved. Like her.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4009 - September 12, 2018, 03:46 PM

    Wouldn’t it be more likely that you’d expect to find literacy in Arabic in towns where the surrounding countryside was mainly Arabic speaking and so local elites were also likely to be Arabic speakers. This could apply to the more arid fringes of Palestine and Syria as well as to oasis towns in Arabia. 


    What are you calling "literacy"?



  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4010 - September 12, 2018, 03:52 PM

    The ability to read and maybe write a language - not necessarily very well.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4011 - September 12, 2018, 04:00 PM

    I recently engaged Lumbard on Twitter and some other people as well. Marijn van Putten even wrote something of his own based on my comment about C14. Here is the thread: https://twitter.com/MemesSemitic/status/1039160183816179713?s=19

    Feedback would be appreciated. See one of the threads in the thread.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4012 - September 12, 2018, 04:48 PM

    Arabic heartland:

    Hegra seems not to have been an inhabited town but only a necropolis, visited a few times a year (Cfr Dan gibson who is truly a Nabatean expert avant la lettre).

    ?? In what script are these?

    I still dont get the argument of the Arabic heartland based on the finds. We have 2 6C inscriptions (Zebed and Haran) incorporated in high status cultural expressions, these are called peripheral, and the handful of grafitti in the mids of the desert are declared "heartland". I am not saying the theory is wrong, I think there needs to be more evidence to prove the case.

    I guess the N-W Arabia region has a lot of sandstone and is ideal for grafitti? Maybe also bc of its sparse population, chances of surviving 1500 yrs are better that in the big arab population centres?

    I just dont see any logic of bedouin types of oasis dwellers culturally competing with the highly sophisticated Arab city dwellers of Damascus or Aleppo and winning the plight. Evidence needs to be strong to follow this counter-intuitive logic.


    1/ The archaeological excavations of Hegra show that the neighboring town not the necropolis was inhabited, and large site of al-Ula was inhabited also today.

    2/ the many thousands of inscriptions of syria are greek and aramaic not arabic.  no evidence that arabs were demographic majority in places like Damas in pre Islam times. For Arabs living in these areas they would have used primarily Greek for official purpose. See the Petra Papyri for example. As for bet Arbaye and southern Iraq fine to say maybe Arab majority but this does not imply the use of Arab script, the two are not equal until after Islam.

    3/ Do not put Harran and Zebed together geographically, two very different regions historically. The Zebed inscription is rare declaration of identity by minority group as you can see the Syriac, which looks nothing like the Arabic in this text, and Greek sections of inscription are much more prominent.

    The surviving examples of the Arabic script in NW Arabia are graffiti because the script was used on perishable materials, made clear from cursive ink-based form, argued by Macdonald. The heartland of the Arabic script is different than the population centre of all inhabitants of near east. Do not collapse.

    I will try a scenario : Arabic script develops incrementally from Nabataean at chancelleries of Arab petty states peripheral to empire in NW Arabia from period following collapse of Petra to 5th c. ad. Follow Hoyland these Arabs once clients of Rome promote their script that already existed, hence the transitional epigraphy, to status of identity symbol, explaining how you get Harran inscription. The script already developed and existed but its promotion to marker of an arab identity catalyzed by growing political status.

    4/ As for Quran, the Arabic script WAS NOT developed to write Quran. It previously existed. It does not matter where Quran was produced, maybe under Ghassanid culture maybe somewhere else, Arab script already exists. Clearly Quran is written in cultural context where Arabic speakesr are using Arab (late Nabataean) script. Maybe Jordan maybe somewhere else. There are linguistic arguments against the language of Quran being from north, however, but I those are well known.

    5/ Arabic monumental text exist in northern Arabia near Tabuk, Christian text published by Hoyland (first Saba Fares). Dating is unclear but shows not just graffiti but monument too.

    Your objects mr. Mundi maybe stem from misrepresentation of information. The assumption that arab speakers must always write in arab script is incorrect. population density reflects proportionately in inscriptions (more total inscrpitions in Syria/Levant than in NW Arabia), but not in <Arabic> inscriptions, which makes entire sense if you understand Arabic script to develop in peripheral environment, as the evolutionary stages show. Argument of monumental representation is also misleading because two monumental texts in 6th c. Arabic exist, and truly only one the harran inscription. The Zebed inscription in fact follows same format as graffiti, but simply carved on a monument where main languages are greek and Syrian. Zebed inscription same formula as Yazid inscription and Dumat inscription, which are graffiti.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4013 - September 12, 2018, 05:01 PM

    The ability to read and maybe write a language - not necessarily very well.


    The question is ;  "why" literacy in Arabia? the answer given so eloquently in Macdonald 2010 Arabia and the written word is 'administration and record keeping'.  Other people might acquire this skill for one reason or another but its primary use seem always to be that. Even in South Arabia. the secondary application of writing is the erection of monuments and commemorative installations. graffiti are the side effect of literacy , when those aquired the skill carve occasional text for different reasons.  the arabian administrative tradition was promoted to one of full fledged literacy only after islam. we cannot speak of book culture in arabic before islam. indeed there is no evidence whatever to support idea of 'arabic' books before islam. but much to support idea of arabic legal and contract tradition in writing. geoffry khan has written much about this.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4014 - September 12, 2018, 05:13 PM

    Wouldn’t it be more likely that you’d expect to find literacy in Arabic in towns where the surrounding countryside was mainly Arabic speaking and so local elites were also likely to be Arabic speakers.
    What are you calling "literacy"?
    The ability to read and maybe write a language - not necessarily very well.

    What is the countryside of Aleppo, Damascus, Al Hira, Ctesiphon, Callinicum,  Al Anbar, Jerusalem, etc., from the middle of the 5th. c.? Same of what you describe. It is Arabic as well, dealing with Arabic and other languages. Their elite inhabited in theses cities fluent in Greek, Syriac for the West, (even in the fringes, cf. Nessana) and Persian, Syriac for the East. And of course Arabic. All of this in an heavily scribal Christianized area.

    That theses people could be more "sophisticated" than in the peninsula seems to me a reasonable assertion.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4015 - September 12, 2018, 06:33 PM

    Is there evidence for Arabic (rather than Aramaic) being widely spoken around Aleppo, Damascus and Jerusalem before the conquests?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4016 - September 12, 2018, 07:04 PM

    Well, there is the region named by the Syriac "Bet Arabayé". It seems reasonable to think that they speak Arabic. From Al Anbar to the Gulf, as well.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4017 - September 12, 2018, 07:12 PM

    Is that anywhere near Aleppo and Damascus?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4018 - September 12, 2018, 07:43 PM

    We know the Nabateans acquired immense wealth by the incense route. Escavations from Aila (Aqaba)  show that the port stayed active early 6th C.

    What did the Nabateans/Arabs do to earn a living after the collaps of the incense route? I would think they continued trading with the East, probably on a smaller less conspicuous scale. Could Arabic have been the trading language of these people? Could that have been the incentive to keep their own language instead of switching over to the elitarian Syriac and Greek? Could that ahve been the reason why there is not much visible remaining Arabic pre 7C? Arabic was intensively used for other purposes than local external expressions like inscriptions or religious rites?

    I think the pre-islamic use of Arabic must indeed have been intensive. Otherwise it would simply have died out. One can not maintain a script and pass it to the next generations if not intensively used above a critical mass.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4019 - September 12, 2018, 07:56 PM

    Quote
    Well, there is the region named by the Syriac "Bet Arabayé".


    Important region, indeed. Same region where the Quraysh are attested. Maybe that carries some significance for the Quranic and Quran Arabic, considering that the Quran is linked to that tribe and even has an entire chapter by their name.
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