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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Previous page 1 ... 136 137 138139 140 ... 370 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4110 - September 18, 2018, 09:41 PM
    Okay. But what do you think?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4111 - September 18, 2018, 11:39 PM
    I have some responses (but it is not the place, etc.)
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4112 - September 19, 2018, 03:34 AM
    Hmm. So my question was an important and a good one?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4113 - September 19, 2018, 09:14 AM
    Quote
    Was the alphabet of the Arabic language so imperfect as to not having been able to give rise to a book such as the Quran


    What mean "so imperfect"? It could mean for example orthography. Who has decided of the orthography of the Quranic text whereas there was no text before?

    Quote
    Is it true that imperfect stage of the Arabic alphabet could not have given rise to a written literature, and thus, the Quran could only have derived from a Christian Syriac milieu?


    I'm not sure to see the relation between the  "imperfect stage of the Arabic alphabet" and that "the Quran could only have derived from a Christian Syriac milieu" because of "imperfect stage of the Arabic alphabet". There is no link in my view.  Any literati interested in the North Arabic script of its time could manage this North Arabic script.  Literati are not necessarily linked to a  a Christian Syriac milieu. There are many people of different  milieu in the 6th and 7th c. who could have been involved because they were relatively competent in this North Arabic script, naturally or studied to the purpose to write the Quran.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4114 - September 19, 2018, 10:39 AM
    I hope I don't interfere in your debate, I don't know so much about this like you.
    I been wondering about Robert Hoyland's position in the debate. Is he a revisionist?
    In his book In God's Path, he accuses left leaning liberal scholars of  sugarcoating Islam, so it fits with the public discussion. Fred Donner is mentioned as a scholar that tries to make Islam look better than it probably was.
    Is the problem of " sugarcoating" Islam still a matter? How is the field developing?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4115 - September 19, 2018, 11:01 AM
    Yea. He is a revisionist. I do not think sugarcoating is relevant to what we are discussing. Maybe in public discussions.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4116 - September 19, 2018, 11:09 AM
    Thanks Mahgraye, for information. How active is Hoyland at the moment in the debate  about the origins of Islam or the Quran?
    By the way, did you register on Twitter the other day that Joseph Lumbard was in a kind of clinch with Gabriel S Reynolds?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4117 - September 19, 2018, 11:28 AM
    I have some more questions.
    Joseph Lumbard cites a passage from Behnam Sadeghi in this tweet where the book Hagarism by Crone and Cook is described as "historical fiction".
    Do you agree with Sadeghi´s (and probably Lumbard´s) view on Hagarism?
    https://twitter.com/JosephLumbard/status/1039720363205124096
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4118 - September 19, 2018, 11:52 AM
    Hoyland is still active to my knowledge. As for Twitter, I did join not that long ago and engaged with Lumbard and some others.

    Not sure what to say about Sadeghi's assessment of Hagarism. For some, it is an accurate description. I think it might be slightly exaggerated.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4119 - September 19, 2018, 12:12 PM
    well the problem of exploring the origins of faith/s unfortunately lies with story tellers  from faiths and story tellers from Academic departments SPECIALLY FROM WEST  and and  the political structures that supports these story tellers financially or otherwise..

    WHAT DID THAT FELLOW REALLY INQUIRE/PUBLISH ABOUT EARLY ISLAM TO GO AGAINST  Dr. Crone's   'Hagarism"

    When he was at  Princeton I am sure he was buttering her every day....

    ********************************************************************


    *****************************************************************************************************************

    From his irrelevant  pubs..?? .. the funny thing is he wrote  a paper honoring Crone  "  Islamic Cultures, Islamic Contexts: Essays in Honor of Prof. Patricia Crone. Edited by Behnam Sadeghi, Asad Ahmed, Robert Hoyland, and Adam Silverstein. Brill: 2014."

     
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4120 - September 19, 2018, 12:14 PM
    Sadeghi was one of the editors for her feischrist.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4121 - September 19, 2018, 12:21 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on September 19, 2018, 12:14 PM
    Sadeghi was one of the editors for her feischrist.

    well  who cares?? I don't care .. He was at Princeton so he goes to the party   and We all know IRANIANS ARE INTELLIGENT PEOPLE with forgotten past
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4122 - September 19, 2018, 12:38 PM
    Quote from: Asbjoern1958 on September 19, 2018, 10:39 AM

    I been wondering about Robert Hoyland's position in the debate. Is he a revisionist?


    Nope, he is not. He believes in the narrative and recounts the conquests (in his last book  "In God's Path...") as does the Muslim narrative.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4123 - September 19, 2018, 12:39 PM
    Quote from: Asbjoern1958 on September 19, 2018, 11:09 AM
    How active is Hoyland at the moment in the debate  about the origins of Islam or the Quran?


    He does not express himself on this topic Wink

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4124 - September 19, 2018, 12:41 PM
    On what topic?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4125 - September 19, 2018, 12:44 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on September 19, 2018, 12:41 PM
    On what topic?

     On the existence or non-existence of Prophet of Islam and original Author/S of Quran  manuscripts
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4126 - September 19, 2018, 12:48 PM
    All these scholars do grand tours in the middle east giving classes. Questioning details of the narrative is ok, but spelling out Mecca is not Mecca might be a bridge too far.

    I think these scholars are honest. But they function within the existing paradigms or paradogmas.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4127 - September 19, 2018, 12:51 PM
    Quote
    On the existence or non-existence of Prophet of Islam and original Author/S of Quran  manuscripts


    Not true.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4128 - September 19, 2018, 12:54 PM
    Hoyland addressed the topic of Mecca already in 1997.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4129 - September 19, 2018, 12:55 PM
    Same could be said of Muhammad's historicity. Already addresses in 1997 and even in subsequent publications.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4130 - September 19, 2018, 01:13 PM
    Altara, interesting to hear that Hoyland is not a revisionist. In his book In God's Path he writes about the difficult position for revisionist:
    "  ....many academics, who are usually left leaning liberals, shy of criticizing Islam and this has favoured the traditionalist approach while pushing sceptics/ revisionists to become more extreme". ( page 232).
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4131 - September 19, 2018, 01:15 PM
    Is there a sharp line between revisionist and non-revisionists?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4132 - September 19, 2018, 01:18 PM
    Hoyland is a revisionist.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4133 - September 19, 2018, 01:19 PM
    Of course there is a line between revisionist and non-revisionists.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4134 - September 19, 2018, 01:21 PM
    What is the cut-off to be called a revisionist? What does one need to question to qualify?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4135 - September 19, 2018, 01:25 PM
    Maybe I can explain it later on. A friend of mine has written on this extensively.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4136 - September 19, 2018, 01:33 PM
    Quote
    Quote from: Mahgraye on September 19, 2018, 12:55 PM
    Same could be said of Muhammad's historicity. Already addresses in 1997 and even in subsequent publications.

    Quote from: Mahgraye on September 19, 2018, 12:54 PM
    Hoyland addressed the topic of Mecca already in 1997.



    what did he say /write exactly on that dear Mahgraye..?? can you Quote him??
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4137 - September 19, 2018, 01:35 PM
    I guess you all know this article by Hoyland from 2017 about the critique of his book In God´s Path, but here it is, anyway.  A quote from the article:

    "Although it is by now something of a ritual, it is necessary to highlight, for newcomers
    at least, the paucity of documentation coming from within the community of the prophet
    Muhammad in the first sixty years after his death in 632 CE, which makes it difficult to say
    anything concrete about this community’s self-definition. It is not just that documents are
    few, but also they are not really of the right sort (mostly they are army requisition notes, tax
    demands, prayers and coin legends) to yield information on this topic.3
     Inevitably this has led
    to a proliferation of theories about what was going on. It is crucial to bear in mind, though,
    that all are to some extent speculative—notwithstanding their purveyors’ often assiduous
    protestations to the contrary—and the scraps of evidence that are deployed to underpin
    them are open to different interpretations. For example, the most striking thing in the eyes
    of many is that Muhammad is not mentioned on any media until the 680s, but conclusions
    from that vary from the non-existence of Muhammad (Yehuda Nevo) to the ecumenical
    nature of early Islam (Fred Donner).4
     We do of course have voluminous accounts from Muslim authors of the ninth century
    telling us exactly what Muhammad and his companions said and did throughout their lives,
    but since these also serve as legal and moral proof texts there is good reason to be critical
    of their worth as historical texts."

    I am new in this stuff, but it is so hard for me to understand why there is so little Islamic/ Arab sources from the 7th and 8th century. The Arabs was already in the first half of the 7th century a large and powerful movement/ nation that they obviously would have the means to write things down. Why didn't they ?

    http://islamichistorycommons.org/mem/wp-content/uploads/sites/55/2017/11/UW-25-Hoyland.pdf


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4138 - September 19, 2018, 01:43 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on September 19, 2018, 01:18 PM
    Hoyland is a revisionist.


    I'm sorry dear Mahgraye he is not.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4139 - September 19, 2018, 01:44 PM
    He is.
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