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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4560 - October 05, 2018, 10:53 AM
    Quote from: Marc S on October 05, 2018, 10:48 AM
    Unfortunately I don't have it. AJ Deus quotes it in his book and I haven't been able to find that book for free on the internet yet. Walker catalog  is available but it is an old book compared to Album/Goodwin.


    Too bad.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4561 - October 05, 2018, 10:57 AM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on October 04, 2018, 08:39 PM


    Am I right in assuming that you think Sebeos is somewhat an obstacle to the non-existence of prophet theory?


    Hahaha! Maybe for Marc, but not (at all) for me...  Afro
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4562 - October 05, 2018, 11:11 AM
    let me help you guys a bit here
    Quote
    Quote from: Altara on October 05, 2018, 10:40 AM
    It seems important to see both. Can you link image/article?

    Quote from: Marc S on October 05, 2018, 10:48 AM
    Unfortunately I don't have it. AJ Deus quotes it in his book and I haven't been able to find that book for free on the internet yet. Walker catalog  is available but it is an old book compared to Album/Goodwin.



    You must realize in this age of internet things float in cloud ..and many copy/paste old stuff as some of them are available on Internet cloud storage..

    So Deus gets it somewhere else from some one.. and some one gets from some other place and the cycle continues but the original source is forgotten.. and many or no one knows where it came from originally..

    by the way do you guys know who that Canadian A. J. Deus is?

    anyways   about those coins.......  there are books on that  Umayyad Coins (661-750CE)...



    Quote
    http://www.muslimheritage.com/article/umayyad-coins-661-750ce
    http://www.muslimheritage.com/uploads/Islamic%20Coins.pdf
    https://www.amazon.com/A.-J.-Deus/e/B005QTDKXE

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4563 - October 05, 2018, 11:19 AM
    Quote from: Marc S on October 05, 2018, 10:48 AM
    Unfortunately I don't have it. AJ Deus quotes it in his book and I haven't been able to find that book for free on the internet yet. Walker catalog  is available but it is an old book compared to Album/Goodwin.


    You can ask to AJ in academia.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4564 - October 05, 2018, 11:24 AM
    Quote from: Altara on October 05, 2018, 10:53 AM
    Of the power held by Ibn Al Zubayr in Iraq only as Iraq was hold by Muawiya II . As such Malik was "usurper" of anything. But  Zubayr at the death of  Muawiya II revolted against the power based in Damascus therefore Malik the" successor" of  Muawiya II. Zubayr revolted as Iraq was hold by the Arabs based in Damascus since the victory of Muawiya against Ali the amir of al Hira  at the death of Utman. It seems clear to me. We have a clear battle from the  the Arabs based in Damascus to control and to not lost Iraq each time they can 1/ death of "Utman" vs Ali and to keep Iraq : death of Muawiya II.


    You need to do like your friend Mehdy Shaddel who has found some great interest in numismatics. Here you are describing the events as per the muslim tradition ; real history might have gone in a different way.

    https://www.academia.edu/36156875/Arab-Sasanian_Issues_of_%CA%BFAbd_All%C4%81h_b._al-Zubayr_Dated_61-63_AH_appendix_to_The_Sufyanids_and_the_Beginnings_of_the_Second_Civil_War_forthcoming_
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4565 - October 05, 2018, 11:26 AM
    Quote from: yeezevee on October 05, 2018, 11:11 AM
    So Deus gets it somewhere else from some one.. and some one gets from some other place and the cycle continues but the original source is forgotten.. and many or no one knows where it came from originally..


    Deus gave clear references as to where he got the info. This is not so much different as reading, let's say Shoemaker, who will quote books in arabic.

    You have great materials on coins on Scribd or Academia. Walker Mohammedan coins catalog was a must. It is now a little bit old but still has some value.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4566 - October 05, 2018, 11:27 AM
    Quote from: Altara on October 05, 2018, 11:19 AM
    You can ask to AJ in academia.


    Yeah I already discussed a few things with him in the past but not this one as I'd rather get the book ; issue with numismatics is that, as Nevo/Koren showed, people can get the dates wrong because they would assign them to the wrong era.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4567 - October 05, 2018, 11:39 AM
    Quote from: Marc S on October 05, 2018, 11:26 AM
    Deus gave clear references as to where he got the info. This is not so much different as reading, let's say Shoemaker, who will quote books in arabic.

    Yes he gave a reference on that but they are NOT original .. he copied it from a book of year 2002 and 1987.. True Shoemaker also copy/pastes... again they are NOT original sources ,, and I operate on simple principle  ..NO ONE IS UNQUESTIONABLE

    Quote
    You have great materials on coins on Scribd or Academia. Walker Mohammedan coins catalog was a must. It is now a little bit old but still has some value.

    that is NOT oold,,, most of these academics copy/pastes from it on those coins  Cheesy
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4568 - October 05, 2018, 12:05 PM
    Quote from: Marc S on October 05, 2018, 11:27 AM
    Yeah I already discussed a few things with him in the past but not this one as I'd rather get the book ; issue with numismatics is that, as Nevo/Koren showed, people can get the dates wrong because they would assign them to the wrong era.


    Never heard or read this kid of stuff  (and I read many numismatics articles about the stuff...) I need then confirmation to take into account what you said.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4569 - October 05, 2018, 12:09 PM
    Quote from: Marc S on October 05, 2018, 11:24 AM
    You need to do like your friend Mehdy Shaddel who has found some great interest in numismatics. Here you are describing the events as per the muslim tradition ; real history might have gone in a different way.

    https://www.academia.edu/36156875/Arab-Sasanian_Issues_of_%CA%BFAbd_All%C4%81h_b._al-Zubayr_Dated_61-63_AH_appendix_to_The_Sufyanids_and_the_Beginnings_of_the_Second_Civil_War_forthcoming_


    Nor the informations of  Muawiya King of Damascus and Ali amir of Al Hira are coming from the Muslim narratives of the 9th c.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4570 - October 05, 2018, 12:13 PM
    Hello Altara  mundi asked a simple question here
    Quote from: mundi on October 04, 2018, 08:03 PM
    ............................... Marc, Maggraye, Altara...

    .........................

    Question:
    Are there any suggestions where Tachkastan is?

    i hope you guys are talking about Tajikistan  .. otherwise please correct it..

    with best wishes
    yeezevee 
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4571 - October 05, 2018, 01:20 PM
    question to Altara


    I wonder whether you had any chance of getting your hands on that above 1887 book??
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4572 - October 05, 2018, 01:55 PM
    Nope Yeez. I think that Marc will ask AJ on academia. We need images and articles.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4573 - October 05, 2018, 02:21 PM
    Some background please on this AJ on Academia!
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4574 - October 05, 2018, 02:43 PM
    Quote from: mundi on October 05, 2018, 02:21 PM
    Some background please on this AJ on Academia!

    Hi mundi...

    AJ= A. j.  Deus   ....   and some of his work...

     http://independent.academia.edu/AjDeus   
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4575 - October 05, 2018, 02:46 PM
    Quote from: yeezevee on October 05, 2018, 12:13 PM
    Hello Altara  mundi asked a simple question herei hope you guys are talking about Tajikistan  .. otherwise please correct it..

    with best wishes
    yeezevee  


    I already replied Yeezevee ; but here it is

    In 428, the Armenian Arshakuni monarchy was abolished and Nakhchivan was annexed by Sassanid Persia. In 623, possession of the region passed to the Byzantine Empire but was soon left to its own rule. Sebeos referred to the area as Tachkastan. Nakhchivan is said by his pupil, Koriun Vardapet, to be the place where the Armenian scholar and theologian Mesrob Mashtots finished the creation of the Armenian Alphabet and opened the first Armenian schools. It happened in the province of Gokhtan, which corresponds to Nakhchivan's modern Ordubad district.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakhchivan_Autonomous_Republic



  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4576 - October 05, 2018, 02:59 PM
    Quote from: Altara on October 05, 2018, 12:05 PM
    Never heard or read this kid of stuff  (and I read many numismatics articles about the stuff...) I need then confirmation to take into account what you said.


    Koren/Nevo discuss this in Part II The Evidence of the Coins / The sassanian Arena p 152-154 of their book Crossroads to Islam.

    A short extract : " Unlike the early Arab-Byzantine coins, these early Arab-Sassanian ones are for the most part dated and record the names of their mints. Despite this fact, assigning a date to an Arab-Sassanian coin can be quite complex. This is partly because of the difficult Pehlevi script employed, and partly because the date can often refer to more than one of the 3 partly overlapping eras : the Arabs (AH), Yzedigird (Y.E.) and post-Yzedigird (P.Y.E.). It is not always easy to decide which era was intended. "
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4577 - October 05, 2018, 03:13 PM
    AJ Deus:

    Why is he such a reference in this discussion? I read his article about the early Qiblas and commented (got no reaction from others, had the impression no one else read it).

    Why Altara are you so impressed? What is your connection?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4578 - October 05, 2018, 03:18 PM
    Quote from: Marc S on October 05, 2018, 02:59 PM
    ............... Despite this fact, assigning a date to an Arab-Sassanian coin can be quite complex. This is partly because of the difficult Pehlevi script employed, and partly because the date can often refer to more than one of the 3 partly overlapping eras..................

    well what is new in that Mark?

    It is interesting to note .,    In Islam these converts which ever is the period..  it could be 6 th century or it could be 2018.. they change the names ,  they change the geography., they change the superficial architecture and    they confuse the readers ... but normally it doesn't happen with those who are born in to Islamic culture..

    whatever..  But do those coins REALLY PROVE EXISTENCE OF Muhammad ., the Prophet of Islam.. the person who got those Quran revelation verses??
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4579 - October 05, 2018, 03:23 PM
    Quote from: mundi on October 05, 2018, 03:13 PM
    AJ Deus:

    Why is he such a reference in this discussion? I read his article about the early Qiblas and commented (got no reaction from others, had the impression no one else read it).

    Why Altara are you so impressed? What is your connection?


    AJ Deus came into the discussion because I quoted the following extract from his book that seems to show that numismatics contradict muslim tradition regarding Ibn Al Zubayr and Abd al Malik history.

    "A coin dated 692 that bore al-Malik’s name was made of the same stamp series but said “partisan of the Caliph” and bore also the imprint “Muhammad, Apostle of God.” Al-Malik had been used on a coin dated 685 once before in connection with the prophet Muhammad. There, he was branded “governor” of his (future) enemy az-Zubair.  The version purporting that al-Malik was a Ghassanid Saracen caliph from 685 to 705 seems misleading. The coins suggest that al-Malik had to submit to the Quraysh caliph and that he may have been a usurper."

    A. J. Deus. The Great Leap-Fraud:Social Economics of Religious Terrorism, Volume II: Islam and Secularization (p. 241).
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4580 - October 05, 2018, 03:26 PM
    Quote from: yeezevee on October 05, 2018, 03:18 PM
    well what is new in that Mark?


    Well I was replying to Altara who didn't know about this.

    Quote
    whatever..  But do those coins REALLY PROVE EXISTENCE OF Muhammad ., the Prophet of Islam.. the person who got those Quran revelation verses??


    Muhammad has nothing to do with the Quran.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4581 - October 05, 2018, 04:02 PM
    Marc,

    Quote
    Muhammad has nothing to do with the Quran.


    What is your theory for how the Quran came to exist?

    Here a cute, very readable article: http://www.academia.edu/7257668/Paradise_in_the_Quran_and_Ephrem_the_Syrian

    Could such material (relationship of Ephrem hymns and Quran cfr Paradise) give clues?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4582 - October 05, 2018, 04:37 PM
    Quote from: Marc S on October 05, 2018, 02:46 PM
    I already replied Yeezevee ; but here it is

    In 428, the Armenian Arshakuni monarchy was abolished and Nakhchivan was annexed by Sassanid Persia. In 623, possession of the region passed to the Byzantine Empire but was soon left to its own rule. Sebeos referred to the area as Tachkastan. Nakhchivan is said by his pupil, Koriun Vardapet, to be the place where the Armenian scholar and theologian Mesrob Mashtots finished the creation of the Armenian Alphabet and opened the first Armenian schools. It happened in the province of Gokhtan, which corresponds to Nakhchivan's modern Ordubad district.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakhchivan_Autonomous_Republic

    Oh I see..

    My goodness gracious .. THAT SEBEOS  GUY IS CONFUSING HELL OUT OF  EVERYTHING IN  ISLAM & ITS ORIGINS...............  Damn   that Nakhchivan  is an independent Autonomous_Republic in Armenia  ..  Ha! I didn't know that.. I was thinking,  It is in Armenia .. interesting thing is it doesn't have borders with Azerbaijan ...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wh4cDzePGf0

    As I said earlier CONVERTS CHANGE EVERYTHING



    it is remarkable to see this map That Armenia borders Syria...
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4583 - October 05, 2018, 06:19 PM
    Quote
    Could such material (relationship of Ephrem hymns and Quran cfr Paradise) give clues?


    Oh, yes. Most definitely. Thanks for the article, by the way.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4584 - October 05, 2018, 06:21 PM
    Quote
    Hahaha! Maybe for Marc, but not (at all) for me...  Afro


    Haha, I guess.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4585 - October 05, 2018, 06:27 PM
    Éléonore Cellard recently joined Twitter:

    https://twitter.com/CellardEleonore
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4586 - October 05, 2018, 06:42 PM
    https://www.franceculture.fr/emissions/matieres-a-penser/notre-besoin-dhistoire-45-de-la-decouverte-en-histoire?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1538144047

    Eléonore Cellard with Patrick Boucheron (French)
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4587 - October 05, 2018, 07:08 PM
    Quote from: Marc S on October 05, 2018, 02:59 PM
    Koren/Nevo discuss this in Part II The Evidence of the Coins / The sassanian Arena p 152-154 of their book Crossroads to Islam.

    A short extract : " Unlike the early Arab-Byzantine coins, these early Arab-Sassanian ones are for the most part dated and record the names of their mints. Despite this fact, assigning a date to an Arab-Sassanian coin can be quite complex. This is partly because of the difficult Pehlevi script employed, and partly because the date can often refer to more than one of the 3 partly overlapping eras : the Arabs (AH), Yzedigird (Y.E.) and post-Yzedigird (P.Y.E.). It is not always easy to decide which era was intended. "

    Koren/Nevo p.153..Sassanian Arena  sub Chapter

    Coins issued by three different governors appears in A.H 41/663-62  bearing Muawiya  name in  A.H 44/664-65 three years after [...] Later Abd al Malik  appears and the coins continues to bear the caliph's or governor's name down to 83 A.H near the end of Abd al Malik reign.

    AJ Deus claim :

    " Al-Malik had been used on a coin dated 685 once before in connection with the prophet Muhammad. There, he was branded “governor” of his (future) enemy az-Zubair. "

    View the Koren/Nevo passage, AJ claim is not convincing.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4588 - October 05, 2018, 07:52 PM
    I only quoted Koren/Nevo because they explain very well the issue with the dating of the arabs coins, especially in the east. However, they are relying on Walker catalog (1945) while AJ Deus is also using Album/Goodwin (2002).

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4589 - October 05, 2018, 08:00 PM
    Quote
    I've already responded to that, dear Mahgraye . Rationally, coherently, logically, it seems to me improbable, to say the least.


    In that case, your previous response was slightly misleading, since it implied that he existed somewhere else. Anyways, it is not evident that you are complete mythicist and thus reject his historicity without any distinctions. Thanks.
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