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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4620 - October 07, 2018, 10:27 AM

    By Iraq, do you mean the final redaction or the actual composition of the text itself? Or you think the text itself arose somewhere in Mesopotamia, in which case you would be in line with what Wansbrough thought and as well as Hawting.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4621 - October 07, 2018, 12:54 PM

    I consider, as I already said, that the composition could have taken place in any scribal place of Orient : Egypt, Palestine, Yemen, Syria, Iraq (of today and further north until Edessa) East coast of the Peninsula (under Iraq of today).
    And the emergence, meaning the spreading to people, has been taken place in Iraq (of today) from Edessa to the Gulf.
    The interpolations ( cf. Guillaume Dye " Réflexions méthodologiques...") could have taken place in Iraq (Edessa to the Gulf). I do not think that they have taken place in Palestine, but it is possible for just a few of them, and not all. Meaning that the rasm has been closed relatively early in a first time and possibly reopen in Abd al Malik time as he has the monopoly of the codex.
    Have I responded to your questions?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4622 - October 07, 2018, 01:30 PM

    Dear Mundi,

    Unfortunately I cannot go further as it is not the place to do it.

      well i understand your problem.,  usurping Sharks are everywhere in Academics.. Cheesy

       Are you writing a book dear Altara...  ?? if you are.,   my suggestion to you is .....first publish couple of ((small 10 page  ))  publications in one of those journals ..  send the publications to a journal after book is completely ready ...  

    Quote
    The sources are there, suffices to read them in putting aside the Muslim narrative of the 9th c.(including the existence of a "prophet" supposed to have written the Quranic texts.) which clothes all the actors of the time of Islamic garments (in telling that they would have came from Mecca/Medina/Kaba, are "Companions", Caliphs (Abu Bakr, Utman, Ali, Muawiya, etc) that  these actors never validate  in any of their documents (epigraphic, archaeologic, or scribal). External sources is the same. One wonder why the external sources would have not stated these informations.

     when you say  "Muslim narrative of the 9th c." .,     i guess you are speaking about hadith or Tafsir of Quran..  did i get that right??

    Quote
    They had no reasons to not state them. Then, rationally, logically, coherently,  it seems clear that they were not aware that they did deal with "Companions", "Caliphs" etc., as the Muslim narrative of the 9th c. will describe them. Because they were not. These people were aware of Quranic texts and that is all.  

     Who?  who were aware of Quranic texts??    .. these "IBN"s??  such as

    1)..  Abū ‘Abd Allāh Muḥammad ibn Ismā‘īl ibn Ibrāhīm ibn al-Mughīrah ibn Bardizbah al-Ju‘fī al-Bukhārī

    2. Abu Ja'far Muhammad ibn Ya'qub ibn Ishaq al-Kulayni al-Razi

    well in that sense you are right...  these guys were Persians   ...

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4623 - October 07, 2018, 01:30 PM

    Altara - I think so.

    Many scholars would place the Quranic milieu somewhere in the geographical area known as Arabia Petraea (or the Provincia Arabia). This area spans from North of the Arabian Peninsula to Syro-Palestine (most likely candidate), which includes the Egyptian Sinai, Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, South-eastern Turkey, and North-western Iraq. This would correspond to what you wrote about the possible places of the composition. But to be fair, a case could also be made that parts of the text where indeed composed in the Hijaz in Western Arabia.

    As for the term “emergence”, I am not entirely sure what you mean by it. Do you mean “promulgation”? Meaning, where the text was officially spread? For instance, de Prémare and Lafontaine place the final edition in Iraq (the former specifically under Iraq's then-governor, al-Ḥajjāj b. Yūsuf). In the case of intertextual exchanges (i.e. scribal) between several different religious communities, Syro-Palestine and/or Iraq-Iran are far more reasonable candidates than the pre-Islamic Arabian peninsula (not sure if this point is more relevant here or to the previous one regarding the Quranic milieu, or what you label “composition” of the text).

    In the case of the Quranic rendition of Mary’s pregnancy and Jesus’ birth  (Q 19, Sūrat Maryam), both Shoemaker and Dye have convincingly linked the story to local Christian liturgical and scriptural traditions associated with the Kathisma church/mosque in the Levant, which is more precisely located between Jerusalem and Bethlem. Every verse does not necessarily have to be an interpolation nor composed in Palestine, but their overarching thesis remains true.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4624 - October 07, 2018, 01:32 PM

    Yeezevee - The translation of the commentary looks great. Hopefully, further classical commentaries will be translated into English, such as al-Tabari.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4625 - October 07, 2018, 02:42 PM

     well i understand your problem.,  usurping Sharks are everywhere in Academics.. Cheesy


    Haha!


    Quote
    when you say  "Muslim narrative of the 9th c." .,     i guess you are speaking about hadith or Tafsir of Quran..  did i get that right??
     Who?  who were aware of Quranic texts??    .. these "IBN"s??  such as


    1/ Baladuri, Waqidi as well as Al Azdi, etc. End of 8th c.
    2/The conquerors (the elite by the means of their literati advisers)





  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4626 - October 07, 2018, 03:32 PM

    Altara - I think so.

    Many scholars would place the Quranic milieu somewhere in the geographical area known as Arabia Petraea (or the Provincia Arabia). This area spans from North of the Arabian Peninsula to Syro-Palestine (most likely candidate), which includes the Egyptian Sinai, Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, South-eastern Turkey, and North-western Iraq. This would correspond to what you wrote about the possible places of the composition. But to be fair, a case could also be made that parts of the text where indeed composed in the Hijaz in Western Arabia.


    Nothing to see with fairness here.  The "Hijaz" as a "place" is known by anybody . And void of any traces of scribal civilization. It is unfortunately as simple as that.

    Quote
    As for the term “emergence”, I am not entirely sure what you mean by it. Do you mean “promulgation”? Meaning, where the text was officially spread?


    emergence (n.)
    1640s, "unforeseen occurrence," from French émergence, from emerger, from Latin emergere "rise up" (see emerge). Meaning "an emerging, process of coming forth" is from 1704.
    emerge (v.)
    1560s, from Middle French émerger and directly from Latin emergere "bring forth, bring to light," intransitively "arise out or up, come forth, come up, come out, rise," from assimilated form of ex "out" (see ex-) + mergere "to dip, sink" (see merge). The notion is of rising from a liquid by virtue of buoyancy. Related: Emerged; emerging.

    French word, like 60% of English vocabulary.

    Not promulgation of any sort. Some people got the texts, and communicated them to fellow Arabs. For me between 600 and 630.

    Quote
    For instance, de Prémare and Lafontaine place the final edition in Iraq (the former specifically under Iraq's then-governor, al-Ḥajjāj b. Yūsuf). In the case of intertextual exchanges (i.e. scribal) between several different religious communities, Syro-Palestine and/or Iraq-Iran are far more reasonable candidates than the pre-Islamic Arabian peninsula (not sure if this point is more relevant here or to the previous one regarding the Quranic milieu, or what you label “composition” of the text).


    Yes, I've already said that it was possible that the rasm was reopen by Hajjaj b. Yusuf. But it was "closed" before. Meaning that possibly the rasm before Hajjaj was different, the shape of the sura the same.


    Quote
    In the case of the Quranic rendition of Mary’s pregnancy and Jesus’ birth  (Q 19, Sūrat Maryam), both Shoemaker and Dye have convincingly linked the story to local Christian liturgical and scriptural traditions associated with the Kathisma church/mosque in the Levant, which is more precisely located between Jerusalem and Bethlem. Every verse does not necessarily have to be an interpolation nor composed in Palestine, but their overarching thesis remains true.


    It is especially linked to Ps. Matthew.The text has no need of the Kathisma to exist,  Ps. Matthew is (largely) enough.  Since before the discover of the Kathisma, it was already linked to it.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4627 - October 07, 2018, 04:36 PM

    Haha!

    1/ Baladuri, Waqidi as well as Al Azdi, etc. End of 8th c.
    2/The conquerors (the elite by the means of their literati advisers)

    By those words/names  you broke origins of Islam in to two entirely different starting points dear Altara..

    1). A Persian Story telling  Islam

    2), Islam of Umayyad Caliphate..

    Somewhere in the middle there must be Shia Islam story......  did I get that right from you??

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4628 - October 07, 2018, 04:45 PM

    I consider, as I already said, that the composition could have taken place in any scribal place of Orient : Egypt, Palestine, Yemen, Syria, Iraq (of today and further north until Edessa) East coast of the Peninsula (under Iraq of today).


    Area of composition of the main Quranic texts see surah 37, verse 137


    Quote
    And the emergence, meaning the spreading to people, has been taken place in Iraq (of today) from Edessa to the Gulf.


    Iraq yes but the area of distribution was much smaller.

    Quote
    These people were aware of Quranic texts and that is all.

    You read too much into the muslim narrative. Nothing demonstrates what you say, but the evidence, or the absence of it, shows the opposite.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4629 - October 07, 2018, 05:24 PM

    Altara write and Mark S says
    I consider, as I already said, that the composition could have taken place in any scribal place of Orient : Egypt, Palestine, Yemen, Syria, Iraq (of today and further north until Edessa) East coast of the Peninsula (under Iraq of today).
     
    Area of composition of the main Quranic texts see surah 37, verse 137.,  Iraq yes but the area of distribution was much smaller.
    You read too much into the muslim narrative. Nothing demonstrates what you say, but the evidence, or the absence of it, shows the opposite.


    what?? Hell Mark S., How does one verse from a surah tell us where composition of the main Quranic texts originated??

    That is astonishing to me.,  well let read me that .  it says

    Quote
    Surah_37  As-Saaffaat  verse 137..

    Yusuf Ali 137:    Verily, ye pass by their (sites), by day-
    Shakir 137:    And most surely you pass by them in the morning,
    Saheeh: 137:    And indeed, you pass by them in the morning


    Oh my goodness ... that is a miracle .,  same numbers   37 and 1 3 7....
    A Surah & verse having same numbers in it must have some special hidden meaning in it ...

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4630 - October 07, 2018, 05:31 PM

    Quote from: yeezevee
    1/when you say  "Muslim narrative of the 9th c." .,     i guess you are speaking about hadith or Tafsir of Quran..  did i get that right??
     2/ Who?  who were aware of Quranic texts??    .. these "IBN"s??  such as


    1/ Nope: Baladuri, Waqidi as well as Al Azdi, etc. End of 8th c.
    2/The Arabs warriors of Iraq of the 628/30 (the elite by the means of their literati advisers)

    By those words/names  you broke origins of Islam in to two entirely different starting points dear Altara..

    1). A Persian Story telling  Islam

    2), Islam of Umayyad Caliphate..

    Somewhere in the middle there must be Shia Islam story......  did I get that right from you??


    I need to work on this.




     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4631 - October 07, 2018, 05:37 PM

    Area of composition of the main Quranic texts see surah 37, verse 137


    Why not. But I do not think that it emerged in Palestine.


    Quote
    Iraq yes but the area of distribution was much smaller.
    You read too much into the muslim narrative. Nothing demonstrates what you say, but the evidence, or the absence of it, shows the opposite.


     We have already discussed about that. It is not Muslim narratives : they build a masjid in 637 in Jerusalem on the Temple Mount. They know Quranic texts, not all possibly, but enough to build this house of prayer.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4632 - October 07, 2018, 05:38 PM

    Quote
    Nothing to see with fairness here.  The "Hijaz" as a "place" is known by anybody . And void of any traces of scribal civilization. It is unfortunately as simple as that.


    I don't seem to be as simple as that. Donner, Sinai, Dost, to name but a few, have argued for a Hijazid milieu on textual and epigraphic grounds. For concise reasons as to why this is the case, see Nicolai Sinai, The Qurʾan: A Historical-Critical Introduction, Edinburgh, 2017, p. 40-77. Others point out that Western Arabia was a cosmopolitan place that was open to outside influences as well. On this, see the collected articles in Greg Fisher, Arabs and Empires Before Islam, Oxford, 2015.

    Quote
    It is especially linked to Ps. Matthew. The text has no need of the Kathisma to exist,  Ps. Matthew is (largely) enough.  Since before the discovery of the Kathisma, it was already linked to it.


    Many don't realize that the Latin text, Liber de infantia, is from the VIIIth or IXth century, and thus can't be the direct source of the Quranic rendition. Rather, it seems that both share a common source. Moreover, there are a few subtle differences between the two accounts concerning Mary’s encounter with the date palm. Pseudo-Matthew locates this incident in Egypt; whilst the Quran places it during Mary's delivery in Bethleem. The solution is not so simple.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4633 - October 07, 2018, 06:40 PM

    Quote
    I don't seem to be as simple as that. Donner, Sinai, Dost, to name but a few, have argued for a Hijazid milieu on textual and epigraphic grounds. For concise reasons as to why this is the case, see Nicolai Sinai, The Qurʾan: A Historical-Critical Introduction, Edinburgh, 2017, p. 40-77. Others point out that Western Arabia was a cosmopolitan place that was open to outside influences as well. On this, see the collected articles in Greg Fisher, Arabs and Empires Before Islam, Oxford, 2015.


    1/They argue without source as far as I know. I'm sorry dear Mahgraye but... There is nothing. The great void. Even the explications of Sinai  (edit) cannot  make forget this. He tries hard, without doubt... but...
    2/ "Cosmopolitan place" without nobody knowing it? Seriously? Thanks to quote some passages of the Fisher to support this. I'm afraid that there will not be many things...

    Quote
    Moreover, there are a few subtle differences between the two accounts concerning Mary’s encounter with the date palm. Pseudo-Matthew locates this incident in Egypt; whilst the Quran places it during Mary's delivery in Bethlehem. The solution is not so simple.


    "Mary's delivery in Bethlehem"  the Quran? "Bethlehem" written in the Quran? You sure?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4634 - October 07, 2018, 08:00 PM

    Why not. But I do not think that it emerged in Palestine.


    ....................... : they build a masjid in 637 in Jerusalem on the Temple Mount. .............


    who build the temple dear Altara ? that story is flimsy... Islamic story goes like this ..

    Some guy named Umar Ibn al-Khattab an idolater who wanted kill Muhammad(PBUH) because of  his monotheistic preaching  impressed by Prophet and converted to Islam .. .. and and gave one of his daughters to Prophet.. So he was also Prophet's father in-law., After that Abu Bakr died/got killed ..  Umar Ibn al-Khattab became 2nd Caliph of Islam ..

    Apparently he was the one   who after the Muslim conquest of Jerusalem in 638 CE, Caliph 'Omar ibn al Khatab, disgusted by the filth covering the site, had it thoroughly cleaned, and granted Jews access to the site....

    So they point is Umar Ibn al-Khattab ,, whatever... DID NOT BUILD ANYTHING BUT GAVE THAT TEMPLE TO JEWISH FOLKS....  Off course story become different when you go to year 692
     construction of the al-Aqsa Mosque   and Dome of the Rock on the site gets  completed in 692 CE

    Well stories over stories ., and new stories are built on stories

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4635 - October 07, 2018, 08:28 PM

    Quote
    Islamic story goes like this ..


    My reference is not the Muslim narratives, but external non Muslim sources on which I rely.
    We have developed with Marc at length this topic previously 2 (?) months ago.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4636 - October 07, 2018, 09:10 PM

    Area of composition of the main Quranic texts see surah 37, verse 137

    Interesting point. Writing about a (famous) place would mean that the writer(s) lived in the same area?  I'm (really) not so sure of that. That is why I cannot affirm that Palestine is the place of composition, nor emergence.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4637 - October 07, 2018, 10:02 PM

    Quote
    Interesting point. Writing about a (famous) place would mean that the writer(s) lived in the same area?  I'm (really) not so sure of that. That is why I cannot affirm that Palestine is the place of composition, nor emergence.


    There more to the verse than you think. Allow me to quote Crone:

    Quote
    God himself was of the opinion that the Meccans would pass by the petrified remains of Lot’s people in southern Palestine “in the morning and in the evening.” One would not have guessed from this remark that the Meccans had to travel some eight hundred miles to see the remains in question.


    She further elaborated on this point on another occasion:

    Quote
    The prophet frequently tells his opponents to consider their significance and on one occasion remarks, with reference to the remains of Lot's people, that “you pass by them in the morning and in the evening”. This takes us to somewhere in the Dead Sea region. Respect for the traditional account has prevailed to such an extent among modern historians that the first two points have passed unnoticed until quite recently, while the third has been ignored. The exegetes said that the Quraysh passed by Lot’s remains on their annual journeys to Syria, but the only way in which one can pass by a place in the morning and the evening is evidently by living somewhere in the vicinity.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4638 - October 07, 2018, 11:38 PM

    Interesting. I have another explication (but this is not the place, etc).
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4639 - October 08, 2018, 07:39 AM

    My reference is not the Muslim narratives, but external non Muslim sources on which I rely.

    oh i see hope it is NOT bible .....

    Quote
    We have developed with Marc at length this topic previously 2 (?) months ago.

     well  it is hard to keep a track of it.,  you guys debate so many different subjects around Islam..  but let me ask a question on Mark's comment dear Altara...
    Area of composition of the main Quranic texts see surah 37, verse 137

    so this is the verse..

    Surah_37  As-Saaffaat  verse 137 : And most surely you pass by them in the morning,

    is it possible to figure out from such verse where Quran or Quranic chapter is constructed/ written in the first time??

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4640 - October 08, 2018, 07:53 AM

    Quote
    is it possible to figure out from such verse where Quran or Quranic chapter is constructed/ written in the first time??


    Someone well informed of the place and of the story in the Bible (a literati for example) can write it from anywhere in Orient  : Egypt, Palestine, Yemen, Syria, Iraq (of today and further north until Edessa) East coast of the Peninsula (under Iraq of today).
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4641 - October 08, 2018, 08:15 AM

    Someone well informed of the place and of the story in the Bible (a literati for example) can write it from anywhere in Orient  : Egypt, Palestine, Yemen, Syria, Iraq (of today and further north until Edessa) East coast of the Peninsula (under Iraq of today).

    there is no doubt about that ...  it is just a bible story coupled to something ...

    Quote
    130:    Peace be on Ilyas.

    131:    Even thus do We reward the doers of good.

    132:    Surely he was one of Our believing servants.

     133:    And Lut was most surely of the apostles.

     134:    When We delivered him and his followers, all--

     135:    Except an old woman (who was) amongst those who tarried.

    136:    Then We destroyed the others.

    137:    And most surely you pass by them in the morning,

    138:    And at night; do you not then understand?


    139:    And Yunus was most surely of the apostles.

    140:    When he ran away to a ship completely laden,

    141:    So he shared (with them), but was of those who are cast off.

    142:    So the fish swallowed him while he did that for which he blamed himself

    143:    But had it not been that he was of those who glorify (Us)
    ,
    144 :       He would certainly have tarried in its belly to the day when they are raised.


    Now those two highlighted verses need not be from bible story.. or are they??.,  Actually Quran writers do not even retell the bible stories there .. He/they are just using names ((such as  Ilyas, Yunus , Lut .. etc..))  from bible to string a statement

    correct me if i am wrong...
       

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4642 - October 08, 2018, 09:03 AM

    Quote
    Now those two highlighted verses need not be from bible story.. or are they??.,


    When the Quran speak of Moses with Pharaoh those "verses need not be from bible story.. or are they??., "

    Quote
    "Actually Quran writers do not even retell the bible stories there .."

    In their way they do it.

    Quote
    He/they are just using names ((such as  Ilyas, Yunus , Lut .. etc..))  from bible to string a statement


    Making allusions to these stories ; recounting them in their way to make appears what they want to tell.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4643 - October 08, 2018, 10:08 AM

    Quote
    When the Quran speak of Moses with Pharaoh those "verses need not be from bible story.. or are they??., "


    In their way they do it.

    Making allusions to these stories ; recounting them in their way to make appears what they want to tell.

    you used the right word "allusions" that was exactly my point on those two verses..

    i will get back on your first Quran statement , Cheesy.,   as i have to take care of some emergency..  but quickly on that word  "allusions "

     indeed   allusions are great way of conveying the  information in just a few words in a cryptic fashion. But many Quran readers  fail to understand that and fall in to ditches making those verses as words some allah/god haha huhuha.... But the problem is why the author of Quran  make reference to these bible allusions as it  is NOT directly being discussed/debated. Question is  what were the underlying events that made the authors of Quran to tell old bible  tales  

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4644 - October 08, 2018, 12:41 PM

    Quote
    indeed   allusions are great way of conveying the  information in just a few words in a cryptic fashion. But many Quran readers  fail to understand that and fall in to ditches making those verses as words some allah/god


    1/ Yes.
    2/ Nope. It is the text which " making those verses as words some allah/god"

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4645 - October 08, 2018, 02:18 PM


    is it possible to figure out from such verse where Quran or Quranic chapter is constructed/ written in the first time??



    Quaranic texts come from the Torah, NewTestament Apocrypha, and other local legends. Apart from the 7 sleepers of Ephesus, all those texts were originally written or had a setting in Syria/Palestine.

    What is interesting in surah 37, verse 137 is that we have the writer direclty adressing his audience so this could be a "local" adjustment to an original text.

    Now, what is complicated is that it could well be the case that those texts were written centuries before the 7th century (meaning coming from older texts but formalized under the structure they have in the Quran), let's say next to the Dead Sea, and then they "migrated" to Irak and were translated in arabic as they were.

    I might be wrong but I am not so sure that it is so important to know who wrote the Quran. Knowing who translated it in arabic or even to whom it was adressed might be better but that is not so sure as for me this is not linked with the different conquests.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4646 - October 08, 2018, 02:48 PM

    Quote
    7 sleepers of Ephesus


    May Shaddel argued convincingly that it is the 7 sleepers of Petra (rqm). And he doesnt do that because he is a Gibson follower...

    http://www.academia.edu/12372967/Studia_onomastica_coranica_al-raq%C4%ABm_caput_Nabataeae_Journal_of_Semitic_Studies_62_2017_pp._303-318_
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4647 - October 08, 2018, 02:56 PM

    Yes Raqim is the Arabic name of Petra. I knew it before the Shaddel article... This displacing of the event in Petra is interesting. In doing this, what want to do the authors? Make believe what? That the Sleepers were Arabs?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4648 - October 08, 2018, 03:03 PM

    Is there a difference between the  Seven Sleepers od Ephesus and Petra? So, Sūrat al-Kahf is not about the Seven Sleepers of Ephasus? What about van Bladel and Tesei?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4649 - October 08, 2018, 03:06 PM

    How did you get to know about RQM? Was it published somewhere else?

    Maybe Rqm was a well known place. It is known today because so beautiful, probably it made an impression in Late Antiquity too. Even if the ritual function didnt exist anymore, it might still have been an important place to Arabs.

    What were the important places for Arabs we know of?

    1/ Jerusalem
    2/ ?
    3/ ?
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