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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5370 - February 18, 2019, 01:28 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on February 18, 2019, 12:46 PM
    What about this remark from Crone?

    Thus, she is capable to use the frame  "Prophet"/Mecca/Medina/Kaba that she abandoned about Hagarism/Meccan trade to address "THE FIRST-CENTURY CONCEPT OF HIGRA" .
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5371 - February 18, 2019, 01:31 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on February 18, 2019, 01:24 PM
    So what if she believed that some parts of the Quran were Muhammad's own words?


    She used the frame  "Prophet"/Mecca/Medina/Kaba  to work on it like 90% of the field today. I put aside Dye and Segovia  (and in a certain way Cuypers because the "prophet" is not supposed to be an expert in Semitic Rhetoric) who moves away from this frame.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5372 - February 18, 2019, 01:41 PM
    Crone on Mohammed and the Quran:

    Quote
    But that he uttered all or most of them is difficult to doubt.


    Indeed, accepting the paradigm got her right on track again.

    I refer now to my previous post on Lindstedt's article on hgra.  Young guy not treading on anyone's toes. It would be interesting to see how often scholars refer to his work compared to the work of a scholar like Kerr...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5373 - February 18, 2019, 03:09 PM
    Quote
    It would be interesting to see how often scholars refer to his work compared to the work of a scholar like Kerr...


    90% of the time. I put aside here Gibson who does not address the topic. Apart Dye Segovia, Gobillot (who is finalizing her 1,000 p. book) and Berg (who seems in semi retirement of the general topic), Reynolds who is standing prudently aside of it, I do not see any scholar in the field who do not believe that the frame "Muhammad"/Mecca/Medina/Kaba as described by Ibn Ishaq is not  historically  true about the origin of the Quran. They're all believe in it.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5374 - February 18, 2019, 03:37 PM
    Quote from: mundi on February 18, 2019, 01:41 PM
    Crone on Mohammed and the Quran:
    Indeed, accepting the paradigm got her right on track again.


    It is quite ironic that the existence of Muhammad is never questioned by Crone in Hagarism; it is accepted at once (p.4 by the introduction of the Doctrina Jacobi which is a purely mess text) as if she was comforting  and was warning all the field  that she was not going to question its existence (necessarily in the  frame Mecca/Medina/Kaba/Zem Zem what else?) so she did not (really)  put aside this frame as she accepted the existence of its principal figure...     
    But the really startling thing about the Doctrina is its report that the Prophet was preaching the advent of 'the anointed one who is to come'. That is to say the core of the Prophet's message, in the earliest testimony available to us outside the Islamic tradition, appears as Judaic messianism. The idea is hardly a familiar one, but again it is strikingly confirmed ~ independent evidence.                 
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5375 - February 18, 2019, 03:55 PM
    1/Existence of Mohammed:

    There having been a prophet-general (called Mohammed or not) and attributing the Quran to this general is yet another leap of faith.
    And yet, scholars like Crone don't seem to have any problems taking this step.

    2/ Believing in the triad Mohammed/Mecca/Medina and not addressing critical scholars like Kerr (as if he is air) are also different things. Normally one wants to convince the one with a different opinion. Here scholars avoid them (very Quranic 28:55).
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5376 - February 18, 2019, 03:55 PM
    Quote
    There having been a prophet-general (called Mohammed or not)


    Is this also a leap of faith?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5377 - February 18, 2019, 04:01 PM
    Existence of Mohammed:

    No, I think there are sufficient sources pointing to his existence. I personally think he existed. And if I says so.... grin12
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5378 - February 18, 2019, 04:49 PM
    One cannot say like Crone in the beginning of Hagarism :

    The Islamic sources provide plenty of scope for the implementation of these different approaches, but offer little that can be used in any decisive way to arbitrate between them. The only way out of the dilemma is thus to step outside the Islamic tradition altogether and start again

    And to not step outside the main figure of this tradition as responsible of the Quranic text. Topic that she never addresses as if it was not the main topic in the field and necessarily of her book . I'm sorry but it is the main topic in the field and there is no other one.
    Thus, "to step outside the Islamic tradition altogether and start again" is not what she does ; Hagarism carries out a true/false "step outside the Islamic tradition" which of course prevent to explain really the emergence of the Quranic text which, in fact, does not interested her at all.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5379 - February 18, 2019, 04:53 PM
    Quote from: Altara on February 17, 2019, 08:56 PM
    Yes there are recent (and old) papers about this topic. All read the word from the 9th frame : Mecca/Medina/Kaba/Zem Zem... (yawn...)

     Altara  ..that letter/word ....."9th frame" .....in the last three responses for me ..  mean 9th century Islamic story of  that Quranic word  "muhajirun"..??    if it is, I am going to go to war  with you..

    yes ..  muhajirun.. this UK girl  did not know/ does not know that  she is  a 9th Century "muhajirun".



    she is again in BBC NEWS


    What the hell  ....suddenly  i see some 20 posts.,    you  guys after drinking that Altara's  Zem Zem and  yawning  you guys are running race on high horses... 

    well  let me read these links before i read posts..

    1.The Concept of Muhājirūn – and Its Potential Significance for the Piety of the Seventh-Century Qur'ānic Movement

    2.  Reflections on the Identity of the Arabian Conquerors  of the Seventh-Century Middle East
     
    3. Fighting Words_ Religion, Violence, and the Interpretation of Sacred Texts

    that 3rd  one has catchy heading..  i must read that..  good stuff good one.. and  damn   this guy Robert G. Hoyland  is very good story teller and great writer all the 25 pages of  his paper,  i would have said in 2 pages
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5380 - February 18, 2019, 04:54 PM
    I agree Altara. So let's get back on topic. I have not received any feedback yet.

    Quote from: mundi on February 18, 2019, 08:48 AM
    Al Jallad on the Arabic toponyms (written in Greek) from the 6th C Petra papyri:

    Almost all place names seem to be Arabic. Some questions:

    1/ I wonder how Quranic the Petra Arabic was? How much of the vocabulary can be found in the Quran?
    2/ Was the (Greek writing) scribe also Arab and Arabic speaker? Could people like that have written in their spare time after working hours texts in Arabic as local folklorists?
    3/ Where did administration scribes get their education? In the monastery? In special administrator schools?


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5381 - February 18, 2019, 05:33 PM
    Quote
    ............. So let's get back on topic. I have not received any feedback yet................

      mundi  says on his post of  Al Jallad etal .. 50 page article
     
    Quote from: mundi on February 18, 2019, 08:48 AM
    Al Jallad on the Arabic toponyms (written in Greek) from the 6th C Petra papyri:

      50 page  Al Jallad etall..  article


    Hi  mundi .. that is good one  and new direction but there is too much to read .50 pages. So you tell me what does   Al Jallad etal article  say on these  4 words

    1. Muhammad. 2. Mecca,  3. Madina,  4. Zam  Zam?  and  hijra  &  " muhajirun "  ..
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5382 - February 18, 2019, 05:34 PM
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 18, 2019, 04:53 PM
    Altara  ..that letter/word ....."9th frame" .....in the last three responses for me ..  mean 9th century Islamic story of  that Quranic word  "muhajirun"..??    if it is, I am going to go to war  with you..
      this guy Robert G. Hoyland  is very good story teller and great writer all the 25 pages of  his paper,  i would have said in 2 pages


     All these article are in the frame Mecca/Medina/Kaba/ Zem Zem.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5383 - February 18, 2019, 05:42 PM
     
    Quote
    All these article are in the frame Mecca/Medina/Kaba/ Zem Zem.


    Oh I see., you mean articles BY PEOPLE ., I agree with that and....I was talking About the words


     My point essentially is   "Mecca/Medina/Kaba/ Zem Zem and Muhammad"   WERE ALREADY THERE  IN ARABIC LANGUAGE BEFORE THE BIRTH OF QURAN AND BEFORE THE BIRTH OF ISLAMIC PROPHET..  including  that words like  hijra  &  " muhajirun "  ..
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5384 - February 18, 2019, 05:48 PM
    Quote
    My point essentially is   "Mecca/Medina/Kaba/ Zem Zem and Muhammad"   WERE ALREADY THERE  IN ARABIC LANGUAGE BEFORE THE BIRTH OF QURAN AND BEFORE THE BIRTH OF ISLAMIC PROPHET..  including  that words like  hijra  &  " muhajirun "  ..


    Before QURAN ? Surely not haha!
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5385 - February 18, 2019, 05:52 PM
    Yeez,

    About the 50 pages of Al Jallad's article: no need to read the whole thing to get the drift...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5386 - February 18, 2019, 05:55 PM
    Quote
    Before QURAN ? Surely not haha!


    yes Before Quran..  the present book......  well let me say this.,   Classical Prophet of Islam was allegedly born in the year 571

    Quote
    571: Birth of the Holy Prophet. Year of the Elephant. Invasion of Makkah by Abraha the Viceroy of Yemen, his retreat.


    so all those  words were there in Arabic language or in languages around Arabia before the year 571...
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5387 - February 18, 2019, 06:01 PM
    Quote from: mundi on February 18, 2019, 05:52 PM
    Yeez,

    About the 50 pages of Al Jallad's article: no need to read the whole thing to get the drift...

      oh i see ....  ,  well  it says NOTHING ABOUT   

    "Mecca/Medina/Kaba/ Zem Zem /Muhammad"/ hijra/    and and these  muhajirun"  

    So  not useful to me  Cheesy Cheesy
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5388 - February 18, 2019, 06:42 PM
    Petra papyri:


    There are quite some indications that this is the area the Quran originated. Examining documents/circumstances dating from just decades before emergence of Quran is relevant imo.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5389 - February 18, 2019, 07:29 PM
    Quote
    There are quite some indications that this is the area the Quran originated.


    Nope. Read Jallad and van Putten about the Nabatean Arabic and the Quranic one.

    Quote
    Examining documents/circumstances dating from just decades before emergence of Quran is relevant imo.


    Petra was heavily Christianized since middle 5 th c. It seems to me improbable that an Arab from Petra speaking to God during 20+ years remains unknown to all the area.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5390 - February 18, 2019, 07:41 PM
    Altara,

    I thought you were questioning the existence of a prophet and now you even accept the details of the popular narrative. 20 years talking to God???
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5391 - February 18, 2019, 08:07 PM
    Petra was heavily Christianized since middle 5 th c. It seems to me improbable that an Arab from Petra (heavily Christianized) speaking to God during 20+ years and uttering anti Chirstian topoi remains unknown to all this scribal area.  That is why the Gibson's Petra conjecture and  the "further north" (than Mecca) Quraysh sanctuary conjecture of Crone in Meccan trade, about the production of the Quranic text by the "Prophet Muhammad" according to the 9th c. narratives to which both think it has existed,  is (very) improbable as both places are scribal places. From these both scribal places there is no allusion to this kind of figure (speaking to God during 20+ years). Therefore the origin of the Quranic text has nothing to see not only with a non existent "Mecca" place, but also further north as say Crone, or Petra as say Gibson.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5392 - February 18, 2019, 08:18 PM
    Altara,

    Where do you get these 20 years from?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5393 - February 18, 2019, 08:39 PM
    The 9th c. narratives. As nor Crone nor Gibson address the production of the Quranic corpus and never have contested the 9th c. narratives about this topic I consider that they consider probable the history recounted by the 9th c. narratives therefore the chronology of this production which is according to the 9th c. narratives of 20+ years.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5394 - February 18, 2019, 08:44 PM
    right. But I am not Crone or Gibson.

    When I try to make sense of the Quran I try to look at different elements. I know Petra region was heavily christianised. And the lack of records about upcoming Islam speaks against the Quran's origins there. But this lack of records exists for all locations.  Maybe it is a coincidence. Should we really only consider Mars as the place of origin of the Quran bc we dont have any records?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5395 - February 18, 2019, 09:03 PM
    But this lack of records exists for all locations.

    Then, what do you consider as a  logical explication for this?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5396 - February 18, 2019, 09:04 PM
    Quote
    Read Jallad and van Putten about the Nabatean Arabic and the Quranic one.


    Do they say that Nabatean Arabic is not the same as Quranic Arabic? And what type of Arabic is the one displayed in the Quran?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5397 - February 18, 2019, 09:15 PM
    linguistics:

    Van Putten and Jallad say that the Arabic is from the Hijaz. Not because they have evidence but because they have no counter evidence. There might not be counter evidence linguistically (there is no evidence, comparable with situation on Mars), but there is counter evidence in almost every other aspect of the Quran: geography, topics, culturally, archaeologically.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5398 - February 18, 2019, 09:16 PM
    Ah
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5399 - February 18, 2019, 10:13 PM
    On Twitter, Van Putten liked the idea about looking for the origins of the Quran among travellers and traders in Hijaz or in Syria- Palestine.
    So he does not think it only came from Hijaz.
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