Qur'anic studies today

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- Mahgraye
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Reply #5430 - February 19, 2019, 04:59 PM

Or a Judaic movement?
- Altara
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Reply #5431 - February 19, 2019, 05:03 PM

If one considers that the "conquest" is an initial "movement", nope.
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Reply #5432 - February 19, 2019, 05:04 PM

That makes sense. I believe that I have also made a similar distinction between the conquests and the movement preceding it. I am asking about the latter, not the conquests, then.
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Reply #5433 - February 19, 2019, 05:08 PM

The latter is nor christian nor Jew. He is build by the Quranic texts since 637 but it is not the Quranic texts which are at the origin of the conquest.
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Reply #5434 - February 19, 2019, 07:56 PM

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You're wrong : The north Arabic script which will be used in the Quran is well known in the 6th c. : 512 : https://www.islamic-awareness.org/history/islam/inscriptions/zebed.html
568 : https://www.islamic-awareness.org/history/islam/inscriptions/harran.html

Yes, 2 inscriptions for that time span!!! We know the script must have been used more frequently, otherwise there would not have been the continuity.

Those 2 inscriptions say something about where they are fund but nothing about where they are not found.
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Reply #5435 - February 19, 2019, 08:00 PM

What is the nature of your disagreement exactly?
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Reply #5436 - February 19, 2019, 08:26 PM

Quote from: mundi on February 19, 2019, 12:23 PM
Yeez,

1/C14 shows that the Quran is a very early document. Probably latest realistic date for the earliest extant copies is around 630.

Islamic traditions as well as non muslim sources seem to allude to separate texts so is the Quran (not the texts themselves but the book) really that early ? This is not so sure.

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2/We know from archeology that the Arab take over was rather friendly. No major destruction found in Palestine, Negev.

What do those 2 facts tell you regarding the conquest itself ? Also, what about other areas out of the Neguev ?

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3/We know that these Arabs knew how to administrate big population centres. We see the towns they took over continue to prosper. That cannot be the work of some barbarians coming out of the desert.

What sources do tell you that the conquerors did take into their own hands the administration of those centres ?

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4/We know the Arabs had a distinctive religion from the start of their conquest (early mosques show that).

So, according to you, all the arabs had the same religion ? I guess you first should explain what you mean by the arabs, so in other words do you mean the conquerors here , If yes, then you should explain which conquerors and at which stage of the conquest you think your assumption is right ?

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Above is why I am looking (for the moment, until someone convinces me to look elsewhere) to Arabia Petraea or its fringes as the locus of the Quran.

That is quite a large area according to Robert Kerr, much larger than restricting it to Petra and its surrouding only.
https://www.academia.edu/2593422/The_Language_of_the_Koran
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Reply #5437 - February 19, 2019, 08:50 PM

Quote
1/C14 shows that the Quran is a very early document. Probably latest realistic date for the earliest extant copies is around 630.

Islamic traditions as well as non muslim sources seem to allude to separate texts so is the Quran (not the texts themselves but the book) really that early ? This is not so sure.

True, Quran might not have been complete or in separate books. But we know by 630 that there was a canonised version that was copied with the utmost care. That is what counts here.

Quote
2/We know from archeology that the Arab take over was rather friendly. No major destruction found in Palestine, Negev.

What do those 2 facts tell you regarding the conquest itself ? Also, what about other areas out of the Neguev ?

I dont know, do you ahve an idea?

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Quote
3/We know that these Arabs knew how to administrate big population centres. We see the towns they took over continue to prosper. That cannot be the work of some barbarians coming out of the desert.

What sources do tell you that the conquerors did take into their own hands the administration of those centres ?

Delegating the administration is also a very special skill. We know that the locl administration seem to continue functioning. Good job of the conquerors!

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4/We know the Arabs had a distinctive religion from the start of their conquest (early mosques show that).

So, according to you, all the arabs had the same religion ? I guess you first should explain what you mean by the arabs, so in other words do you mean the conquerors here , If yes, then you should explain which conquerors and at which stage of the conquest you think your assumption is right ?

Most Arabs seem to have been Christians. But the conquerors seemed to ahve their distict religion from the beginning of their take over.
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Reply #5438 - February 19, 2019, 08:50 PM

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True, Quran might not have been complete or in separate books. But we know by 630 that there was a canonised version that was copied with the utmost care. That is what counts here.

Evidence? The date you give is even earlier than the date given by scholars accepting the traditional story.
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Reply #5439 - February 19, 2019, 09:01 PM

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But the conquerors seemed to have their distinct religion from the beginning of their take over.

The leaders have their distinct "ideas" not "religion", 637 attests of that. And not necessarily hostile to Christianity as the soldatesque. One have accounts of the relative kindness of the conquerors to Christianity.
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Reply #5440 - February 19, 2019, 09:07 PM

Maghraye,

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Evidence? The date you give is even earlier than the date given by scholars accepting the traditional story.

Have a look at the list here: https://www.islamic-awareness.org/quran/text/mss/radio
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Reply #5441 - February 19, 2019, 09:08 PM

So? I am aware of these radiocarbon datings. I presume you are familiar with problems with this method of dating?
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Reply #5442 - February 19, 2019, 09:11 PM

Altara,

Quote
The leaders have their distinct "ideas" not "religion", 637 attests of that. And not necessarily hostile to Christianity as the soldatesque. One have accounts of the relative kindness of the conquerors to Christianity.

Agree with you. But they saw themselves a s separate. And this from the beginning Proof is their building of their own mosques (look at Gibson's list...).
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Reply #5443 - February 19, 2019, 09:13 PM

C14 and problems

Yes I am aware of the eventual objections. I dont think they are convincing. Individual datings can be disputed but the collectivity gives a clear trend. Note that the 630 is already adding some years to what is possible based on the numbers.

Revisionists cling to their narrative just as traditionalists do. We have to let go of bias.
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Reply #5444 - February 19, 2019, 09:43 PM

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Yes I am aware of the eventual objections. I dont think they are convincing. Individual datings can be disputed but the collectivity gives a clear trend. Note that the 630 is already adding some years to what is possible based on the numbers.

I do not find this argument convincing at all. We are talking about very different manuscripts. And we know for a fact that the datings produced on that website for some of the manuscripts are dead wrong.
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Reply #5445 - February 19, 2019, 09:56 PM

In fact, more than half of these dating are spurious.
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Reply #5446 - February 19, 2019, 10:01 PM

Quote from: mundi on February 19, 2019, 09:11 PM
Altara,

Agree with you. But they saw themselves a s separate.

Yes, but much less than later. As time goes by from the Abd al Malik time, the separation is more and more important.
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Reply #5447 - February 19, 2019, 10:36 PM

Quote from: mundi on February 19, 2019, 08:50 PM
True, Quran might not have been complete or in separate books. But we know by 630 that there was a canonised version that was copied with the utmost care. That is what counts here.

I am not sure that we know what you are claiming. C14 dating has its own problem and the dating of muslim manuscripts seem to be quite an issue in itself.

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I dont know, do you ahve an idea?

Well for one there might have been no "conquest" of the Palestine/Neguev.

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Delegating the administration is also a very special skill. We know that the locl administration seem to continue functioning. Good job of the conquerors!

If you read the muslim sources, the conquerors just go from town to town and sign treaties with local authorities. This is no special skills. Looking into it, this might give some explanations of "one" of the cause of this "so-called" conquest.

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Most Arabs seem to have been Christians. But the conquerors seemed to ahve their distict religion from the beginning of their take over.

The fact arabs were following different religions is known well before the arab conquests. But this ain't Quran related.
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Reply #5448 - February 20, 2019, 01:25 AM

Can someone please give me their take on this:

https://youtu.be/KRNRxUndbhE?t=1059

Click on the link and the video will start where I have timestamped it or watch from 17:39 until 22:50.
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Reply #5449 - February 20, 2019, 07:57 AM

Well, it's (from what I could understand...) an "Islamic" poor discussion about Gibson (and Gallez Bakka) thesis. I did not get the specific details of what he said. But the " They build Mecca" in red was very fun.
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Reply #5450 - February 20, 2019, 08:03 AM

Marc,

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If you read the muslim sources, the conquerors just go from town to town and sign treaties with local authorities. This is no special skills. Looking into it, this might give some explanations of "one" of the cause of this "so-called" conquest.

I didnt know the muslim sources claimed a peaceful overtake... If so, that seems to be corroborated by archeology.
And yes, that is VERY skillful to be able to negotiate oneself into power. I doubt that militarily, from the beginning, they could have gotten what they got by negotiating.
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Reply #5451 - February 20, 2019, 11:39 AM

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I didnt know the muslim sources claimed a peaceful overtake...

They don't and I never claimed that. But they have this topo about ending up signing treaties.

Coming back to the point, they didn't know and didn't manage towns but you have to be careful when you talk about conquerors, when you imply that these people were one because the reality is that there was no conquest in the beginning and the motives for going to war against Byzantium were diverse.
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Reply #5452 - February 20, 2019, 11:44 AM

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I didnt know the muslim sources claimed a peaceful overtake... If so, that seems to be corroborated by archeology. And yes, that is VERY skillful to be able to negotiate oneself into power.I doubt that militarily, from the beginning, they could have gotten what they got by negotiating.

Question is where do you start that beginning??

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620: Journey to Taif. Ascension to the heavens.
621: First pledge at Aqaba.
622: Second pledge at Aqaba. The Holy Prophet and the Muslims migrate to Yathrib.
623: Nakhla expedition.
624: Battle of Badr. Expulsion of the Bani Qainuqa Jews from Madina.
625: Battle of Uhud. Massacre of 70 Muslims at Bir Mauna. Expulsion of Banu Nadir Jews from Madina. Second expedition of Badr.
626: Expedition of Banu Mustaliq.
627: Battle of the Trench. Expulsion of Banu Quraiza Jews.
628: Truce of Hudaibiya. Expedition to Khyber. The Holy Prophet addresses letters to various heads of states.
629: The Holy Prophet performs the pilgrimage at Makkah. Expedition to Muta (Romans).
630: Conquest of Makkah. Battles of Hunsin, Auras, and Taif.
631: Expedition to Tabuk. Year of Deputations.
632: Farewell pilgrimage at Makkah.
632: Death of the Holy Prophet.Election of Hadrat Abu Bakr as the Caliph. Usamah leads expedition to Syria. Battles of Zu Qissa and Abraq. Battles of Buzakha, Zafar and Naqra. Campaigns against Bani Tamim and Musailima, the Liar.
632: Death of the Holy Prophet.Election of Hadrat Abu Bakr as the Caliph. Usamah leads expedition to Syria. Battles of Zu Qissa and Abraq. Battles of Buzakha, Zafar and Naqra. Campaigns against Bani Tamim and Musailima, the Liar.
633: Campaigns in Bahrain, Oman, Mahrah Yemen, and Hadramaut. Raids in Iraq. Battles of Kazima, Mazar, Walaja, Ulleis, Hirah, Anbar, Ein at tamr, Daumatul Jandal and Firaz.
634: Battles of Basra, Damascus and Ajnadin. Death of Hadrat Abu Bakr. Hadrat Umar Farooq becomes the Caliph. Battles of Namaraq and Saqatia.
635: Battle of Bridge. Battle of Buwaib. Conquest of Damascus. Battle of Fahl.
636: Battle of Yermuk. Battle of Qadsiyia. Conquest of Madain.
637: Conquest of Syria. Fall of Jerusalem. Battle of Jalula.
638: Conquest of Jazirah.
639: Conquest of Khuizistan. Advance into Egypt.
640: Capture of the post of Caesaria in Syria. Conquest of Shustar and Jande Sabur in Persia. Battle of Babylon in Egypt.
641: Battle of Nihawand. Conquest Of Alexandria in Egypt.
642: Battle of Rayy in Persia. Conquest of Egypt. Foundation of Fustat.
643: Conquest of Azarbaijan and Tabaristan (Russia).
644: Conquest of Fars, Kerman, Sistan, Mekran and Kharan.[/u] Martyrdom of Hadrat Umar. Hadrat Othman becomes the Caliph.
645: Campaigns in Fats.
646: Campaigns in Khurasan, Armeain and Asia Minor.
647: Campaigns in North Africa. Conquest of the island of Cypress.
648: Campaigns against the Byzantines.
651: Naval battle of the Masts against the Byzantines.
652: Discontentment and disaffection against the rule of Hadrat Othman.
656: Martyrdom of Hadrat Othman. Hadrat Ali becomes the Caliph. Battle of the Camel.
657: Hadrat Ali shifts the capital from Madina to Kufa. Battle of Siffin. Arbitration proceedings at Daumaut ul Jandal.
658: Battle of Nahrawan.
659: Conquest of Egypt by Mu'awiyah.
660: Hadrat Ali recaptures Hijaz and Yemen from Mu'awiyah. Mu'awiyah declares himself as the Caliph at Damascus.
661: Martyrdom of Hadrat Ali. Accession of Hadrat Hasan and his abdication. Mu'awiyah becomes the sole Caliph.
662: Khawarij revolts.
666: Raid of Sicily.
670: Advance in North Africa. Uqba b Nafe founds the town of Qairowan in Tunisia. Conquest of Kabul.
672: Capture of the island of Rhodes. Campaigns in Khurasan.
674: The Muslims cross the Oxus. Bukhara becomes a vassal state.
677: Occupation of Sarnarkand and Tirmiz. Siege of Constantinople.
680: Death of Muawiyah. Accession of Yazid. Tragedy of Kerbala and martyrdom of Hadrat Hussain.
682: In North Africa Uqba b Nafe marches to the Atlantic, is ambushed and killed at Biskra. The Muslims evacuate Qairowan and withdraw to Burqa.
683: Death of Yazid. Accession of Mu'awiyah II.
684: Abdullah b Zubair declares himself aS the Caliph at'Makkah. Marwan I becomes the Caliph' at Damascus. Battle of Marj Rahat.
685: Death of Marwan I. Abdul Malik becomes the Caliph at Damascus. Battle of Ain ul Wada.
686: Mukhtar declares himself as the Caliph at Kufa.
687: Battle of Kufa between the forces of Mukhtar and Abdullah b Zubair. Mukhtar killed.
691: Battle of Deir ul Jaliq. Kufa falls to Abdul Malik.
692: The fall of Makkah. Death of Abdullah b Zubair. Abdul Malik becomes the sole Caliph.
695: Khawarij revolts in Jazira and Ahwaz. Battle of the Karun. Campaigns against Kahina in North Africa. The' Muslims once again withdraw to Barqa. The Muslims advance in Transoxiana and occupy Kish.
700: Campaigns against the Berbers in North Africa.
702: Ashath's rebellion in Iraq, battle of Deir ul Jamira.
705: Death of Abdul Malik. Accession of Walid I as Caliph.
711: Conquest of Spain, Sind and Transoxiana.
712: The Muslims advance in Spain, Sind and Transoxiana.
713: Conquest of Multan.
715: Death of Walid I. Accession of Sulaiman.
716: Invasion of Constantinople.
717: Death of Sulaiman. Accession of Umar b Abdul Aziz.
720: Death of Umar b Abdul Aziz. Accession of Yazid II.
724: Death of Yazid II. Accession of Hisham.
725: The Muslims occupy Nimes in France.
732: The battle of Tours in France.

that is just first 100 years of Islam....

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737: The Muslims meet reverse at Avignon in France.
740: Shia revolt under Zaid b Ali. Berber revolt in North Africa. Battle of the Nobles.
741: Battle of Bagdoura in North Africa.
742: The Muslim rule restored in Qiarowan.
743: Death of Hisham. Accession of Walid II. Shia revolt in Khurasan under Yahya b Zaid.
744: Deposition of Walid I1. Accession of Yazid II1 and his death. Accession of Ibrahim and his overthrow. Battle of Ain al Jurr. Accession of Marwan II.
745: Kufa and Mosul occupied by the Khawarjites.
746: Battle of Rupar Thutha, Kufa and Mosul occupied by Marwan II.
747: Revolt of Abu Muslim in Khurasan.
748: Battle of Rayy.
749: Battles of lsfahan and Nihawand. Capture of Kufa by the Abbasids. As Saffah becomes the Abbasid Caliph at Kufa.
750: Battle of Zab. Fall of Damascus. End of the Umayyads.
751: Conquest of Wasit by the Abbasid. Murder of the Minister Abu Salama.
754: Death of As Saffah. Accession of Mansur as the Caliph.
755: Revolt of Abdullah b Ali. Murder of Abu Muslim. Sunbadh revolt in Khurasan.
756: Abdul Rahman founds the Umayyad state in Spain.
762: Shia revolt under Muhammad (Nafs uz Zakia) and Ibrahim.
763: Foundation of Baghdad. Defeat of the Abbasids in Spain.
767: Khariji state set up by Ibn Madrar at Sijilmasa. Ustad Sees revolt in Khurasan.
772: Battle of Janbi in North Africa. Rustamid. state set up in Morocco.
775: Death or the Abbasid Caliph Mansur, Accession of Mahdi,
777: Battle of Saragossa in Spain.
785: Death of the Caliph Mahdi. Accession of Hadi.
786: Death of Hadi. Accession of Harun ur Rashid.
788: Idrisid state set up in the Maghrib. Death of Abdul Rahman of Spain, and accession of Hisham.
792: Invasion of South France.
796: Death of Hisham in Spain; accession of al Hakam.
799: Suppression of the revolt of the Khazars..
800: The Aghlabid rule is established in North Africa.
803: Downfall of the Barmakids. Execution of Jafar Barmki.
805: Campaigns against the Byzantines. Capture of the islands of Rhodes and Cypress.
809: Death of Harun ur Rashid. Accession of Amin.
814: Civil war between Amin and Mamun. Amin killed and Mamun becomes the Caliph.
815: Shia revolt under Ibn Tuba Tabs.
816: Shia revolt in Makkah; Harsama quells the revolt. In Spain the Umayyads capture the island of Corsica.
817: Harsama killed.
818: The Umayyads of Spain capture the islands of Izira, Majorica, and Sardinia.
819: Mamun comes to Baghdad.
820: Tahir establishes the rule of the Tahirids in Khurasan.
822: Death of AI Hakam in Spain; accession of Abdul Rahman. II.
823: Death of Tahir in Khurasan. Accession of Talha and his deposition. Accession of Abdullah b Tahir.
827: Mamun declares the Mutazila creed as the state religion.
833: Death of Mamun. Accession of Mutasim.

that is 2nd 100 years of Islam....

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Reply #5453 - February 20, 2019, 11:48 AM

Quote from: Marc S on February 20, 2019, 11:39 AM
They don't and I never claimed that. But they have this topo about ending up signing treaties.

Coming back to the point, they didn't know and didn't manage towns but you have to be careful when you talk about conquerors, when you imply that these people were one because the reality is that there was no conquest in the beginning and the motives for going to war against Byzantium were diverse.

we must realize here ..
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The Byzantine Empire was the eastern continuation of the Roman Empire after the Western Roman Empire's fall in the fifth century CE. It lasted from the fall of the Roman Empire until the Ottoman conquest in 1453.

that Byzantine Empire itself conquered middle east.. so called Eastern Roman empire

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Reply #5454 - February 20, 2019, 12:55 PM

Quote from: Marc S on February 20, 2019, 11:39 AM
you have to be careful when you talk about conquerors, when you imply that these people were one because the reality is that there was no conquest in the beginning and the motives for going to war against Byzantium were diverse.

1/ Hoyland is right when pointing a revolt of local Arabs in Palestine which is what Sophrone talk in his Sermons. But it is not these Arabs who enter in Jerusalem in 637 and build the masjid.Hoyland holds (of course) that it is those of Mecca/Zem Zem.
2/ There is a "conquest" from the moment where local authority is changing.
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Reply #5455 - February 20, 2019, 01:15 PM

Quote
1/ Hoyland is right when pointing a revolt of local Arabs in Palestine which is what Sophrone talk in his Sermons. But it is not these Arabs who enter in Jerusalem in 637 and build the masjid.Hoyland holds (of course) that it is those of Mecca/Zem Zem.
2/ There is a "conquest" from the moment where local authority is changing.

I have a very serious problem with that word "Arab"... who was Arab what was there demography ? if we take this land picture of middle East

where were the Arabs Living? Just because some SILLY VERSE in Quran mentions .. does it mean Quran initially was reveled in Arabic language ??

Were there any Arab Jews? Arab Christians ?? where were they living during that Eastern Roman Era ?? Was there any Arab soldiers or otherwise in Eastern Roman Empire??

WHO WAS THE ARAB AT THAT TIME??

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Reply #5456 - February 20, 2019, 01:37 PM

Hmm.. Some good stuff good points and some revelation here .....
Quote
Quote
Quote from: Mahgraye on February 19, 2019, 04:59 PM
Or a Judaic movement?

Quote from: Altara on February 19, 2019, 05:03 PM
If one considers that the "conquest" is an initial "movement", nope.

Quote from: Mahgraye on February 19, 2019, 05:04 PM
That makes sense. I believe that I have also made a similar distinction between the conquests and the movement preceding it. I am asking about the latter, not the conquests, then.

Quote from: Altara on February 19, 2019, 05:08 PM

The latter is nor christian nor Jew. He is build by the Quranic texts since 637 but it is not the Quranic texts which are at the origin of the conquest.

Interesting posts there "Conquest Versus Movement " .. but on this REVELATION from Alatra

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"The latter is nor christian nor Jew. He is build by the Quranic texts since 637 but it is not the Quranic texts which are at the origin of the conquest."

I agree that ORIGINAL Quranic texts are very little to do with conquest.. And on top of that

I say .... "even today to all the way to year 610., ..the alleged The first revelation in the cave at Mt. Hira. and that Islamic Holy Prophet declares himself or by his near & dear as Messenger of God." ... not sure whether I should call them as MOVEMENTS OR CONQUESTS

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the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #5457 - February 20, 2019, 01:43 PM

Yeez,

Quote
621: First pledge at Aqaba.
622: Second pledge at Aqaba.

Interesting in your history that you start it in Aqaba (Ayla) which is a port city connecting different peoples and cultures but was certainly intensely connected with the lands in the Negev and around Petra. I didnt know muslim tradition referred to this city so early on.

Excavations have been done there and a "conquerors"city has been found next to the earlier byzantine city. The conquerors city also contained a mosque with a mihrab pointing to.... Mount Sinai. This is a very interesting case because from Ayla, the conquerors could not have missed their homeland, the Hijaz, if they would have wanted to point the Qibla there. Visually they could have estimated the approximate direction. But no, instead of directing the Qibla to the S-East, they directed their Qibla S-West, to the other side of the Gulf of Aqaba.
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Reply #5458 - February 20, 2019, 01:49 PM

mundi says
Quote
Interesting in your history that you start it in Aqaba (Ayla) which is a port city connecting different peoples and cultures but was certainly intensely connected with the lands in the Negev and around Petra. I didnt know muslim tradition referred to this city so early on.

Excavations have been done there and a "conquerors"city has been found next to the earlier byzantine city. The conquerors city also contained a mosque with a mihrab pointing to.... Mount Sinai. This is a very interesting case because from Ayla, the conquerors could not have missed their homeland, the Hijaz, if they would have wanted to point the Qibla there. Visually they could have estimated the approximate direction. But no, instead of directing the Qibla to the S-East, they directed their Qibla S-West, to the other side of the Gulf of Aqaba.

Thank you mundi., thank you thank you...

thank you for noticing that and Now it is time for me & you TO MOVE ALL ORIGINS OF ISLAM .. that includes Mecca..Madina.. Qibla..Kabba ORIGINAL Quran Scribes and etc.. etc of early islam and its rituals to that original area FROM PRESENT MECCA, MADINA & DAN GIBSON"S PETRA ... .......... we just need to figure out that Zam zam water well..........

LET US FIGHT THAT.. rascals making billions of dollars a year as Islamic worship place .. in the name of Islam and in the name of Prophet of Islam .. That adjective word ...that... that adjacent word to a or any Arab name " "Muhammad"

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
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Reply #5459 - February 20, 2019, 04:24 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on February 20, 2019, 01:15 PM
I have a very serious problem with that word "Arab"... who was Arab what was there demography ?

For the Romans North Arabic speaker and first third of the Western peninsula imported in Palestine Syria to keep control of the East frontier vs Persia

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where were the Arabs Living?

There and Iraq (until Aleppo). Yemeni are outside this topic as they are far from the Romans and Persia. I even think that they were not called "Arabs".

Quote
Just because some SILLY VERSE in Quran mentions .. does it mean Quran initially was reveled in Arabic language ??

It's a kind of Arabic language.

Quote
Were there any Arab Jews? Arab Christians ?? where were they living during that Eastern Roman Era ?? Was there any Arab soldiers or otherwise in Eastern Roman Empire??

1/ Yemeni Jews but the Talmud-s did not know them
2/Yes
3/Yes
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Mahgraye

Reply #5430 - February 19, 2019, 04:59 PM

Altara

Reply #5431 - February 19, 2019, 05:03 PM

Mahgraye

Reply #5432 - February 19, 2019, 05:04 PM

Altara

Reply #5433 - February 19, 2019, 05:08 PM

mundi

Reply #5434 - February 19, 2019, 07:56 PM

Mahgraye

Reply #5435 - February 19, 2019, 08:00 PM

Marc S

Reply #5436 - February 19, 2019, 08:26 PM

mundi

Reply #5437 - February 19, 2019, 08:50 PM

Mahgraye

Reply #5438 - February 19, 2019, 08:50 PM

Altara

Reply #5439 - February 19, 2019, 09:01 PM

mundi

Reply #5440 - February 19, 2019, 09:07 PM

Mahgraye

Reply #5441 - February 19, 2019, 09:08 PM

mundi

Reply #5442 - February 19, 2019, 09:11 PM

mundi

Reply #5443 - February 19, 2019, 09:13 PM

Mahgraye

Reply #5444 - February 19, 2019, 09:43 PM

Mahgraye

Reply #5445 - February 19, 2019, 09:56 PM

Altara

Reply #5446 - February 19, 2019, 10:01 PM

Marc S

Reply #5447 - February 19, 2019, 10:36 PM

Mahgraye

Reply #5448 - February 20, 2019, 01:25 AM

Altara

Reply #5449 - February 20, 2019, 07:57 AM

mundi

Reply #5450 - February 20, 2019, 08:03 AM

Marc S

Reply #5451 - February 20, 2019, 11:39 AM

yeezevee

Reply #5452 - February 20, 2019, 11:44 AM

yeezevee

Reply #5453 - February 20, 2019, 11:48 AM

Altara

Reply #5454 - February 20, 2019, 12:55 PM

yeezevee

Reply #5455 - February 20, 2019, 01:15 PM

yeezevee

Reply #5456 - February 20, 2019, 01:37 PM

mundi

Reply #5457 - February 20, 2019, 01:43 PM

yeezevee

Reply #5458 - February 20, 2019, 01:49 PM

Altara

Reply #5459 - February 20, 2019, 04:24 PM

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