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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5640 - February 28, 2019, 08:48 PM

    I still did not read the all Zellentin article; I'm working on another one at the moment  (simply re copying a poor pdf copy scan of a book article of Griffith in a new file to get it clean; I think, I'd have to do that for all its articles in academia and it takes time...)
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5641 - February 28, 2019, 09:08 PM

    Altara,

    If you havent read Zellentin's article, how do you know Yeez didnt get it?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5642 - February 28, 2019, 09:15 PM

    Ok. You did not get what Zellentin said. And despite (haha!) youre a great guy!


    actually i did not even read that dear Altara.    Cheesy. I just read his narration of Quasi crystal work of a well known physics guy with the work of Günter Lüling’s Ur-Qurʾān   but i watched this

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UInFMzoT808

    well that is 7 year old  interview ....  but now   i am not sure where he is now on religious narratives of faith heads and and future of mankind.. 

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5643 - February 28, 2019, 09:25 PM

    Altara,

    If you havent read Zellentin's article, how do you know Yeez didnt get it?

     well  mundi Altara  is a very very smart  in picking  parables in posts ..lol...

    but  mundi ,  Altara  .. Marc.....Mahgraye...  I wonder whether you guys read any of works  of  Günter Lüling??

    most of it appears to be inGerman... any English Translations  of his work??


    Quote
    Bibliographic selection

    - A challenge to Islam for reformation: the rediscovery and reliable reconstruction of a comprehensive pre-Islamic Christian hymnal hidden in the Koran under Islamic reinterpretations, New Delhi, Motilal Banarsidass Publishers, 2003. Excerpts from the book

    -  Die Wiederentdeckung des Propheten Muhammad. Eine Kritik am "Christlichen" Abendland. Erlangen: Lüling, 1981.
    - Der Christliche Kult an der vorislamischen Kaaba als Problem der Islamwissenschaft und christlichen Theologie. Erlangen: Lüling, 1977.

    - Über den Ur-Qur'an . Ansätze zur Rekonstruktion vorislamischer Christlicher Strophenlieder im Qur'an. Erlangen: Lüling, 1974.

    - Kritisch-exegetische Untersuchung des Qur'antextes. Erlangen, 1970 (Thesis).

    Several texts by Günter Lüling are available on Christoph Herger's website


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5644 - February 28, 2019, 09:43 PM

    Thanks for the video Yeez.

    I guess we can summarize that Zellentin studies religion and is not a historian. That's why he doesn't care what was originally meant by the words of the Quran. The rules are set out by the Islamic narrative as we know it (fixed text-the tradition in general), and he uses the building blocks that are handed to him to have a lot of interesting fun and build nice castles.

    I understand his position that it is very difficult to prove this or that reading. So he decides not to try anymore. I think lots of scholars would agree with that.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5645 - February 28, 2019, 10:22 PM

    "Who  was Allah before Islam?? Evidence  that the term "Allah" originated from Arab Jews and Arab Christians .  pdf file"  by Richard Brown...


    A Challenge to Islam for Reformation. The Rediscovery and Reliable Reconstruction of a Comprehensive Pre-Islamic Christian Hymnal hidden in the Koran under Earliest Islamic Reinterpretations (Günter LÜLING)...  a review  of Günter LÜLING work by Mehdi Azaiez - 2008 

    Quote
    A Challenge to Islam for Reformation : The Rediscovery and Reliable Reconstruction of a Comprehensive Pre-Islamic Christian Hymnal Hidden in the Koran Under Earliest Islamic Reinterpretations/Gunter Luling. Reprint. Delhi, Motilal, 2003, lxviii, 580 p., $77. ISBN 81-208-1952-7.

    Presentation

    As a protestant theologian and disciple of the renowned critics of Christianity, Albert Schweitzer and Martin Werner, the author wanted since long to contribute to the breakthrough of their resolute non-trinitarian position which has throughout the twentieth century by all and every Western Christian university theology been silenced by pretending tacitly and tenaciously the non-existence of their strong argument. His aim was solely to combat this ubiquitous fundamentalistic World Christianity by showing that the Koran teaches the original ur-Christian true concept of understanding Christ.

    But this limited text-critical endeavour led unexpected, much more important discoveries of dogma-historical import. The author stumbled across the fact that around 1900, some renowned German Islamicists already discussed the important circumstance that the Koran contained a comprehensive vernacular-Arabic strophic poetry. These studies became almost instantly deserted because the pluralistic democratic Western Academia, after World War II, showed no interest at all in dogma-critical text-criticism.

    The author succeeded in developing these forgotten studies of around the turn of the century to become an incontestable achievement. The proof is established that the pre-Islamic Christian hymnody contained in the Koran under early Islamic reinterpretations can reliably be reconstructed.

    These reconstructions yield a totally new insight into the rise and early development of Islam : the intentions of Prophet Muhammad have obviously been altered by his early successors in power, often rendered into the contrary. The reconstructions submitted here are only an exemplification of the necessary special methods of reconstructions of that period. Hundreds of pre_Islamic strophes remain to be restored.

    Table des matières

    Preface :
    1. Keeping alive liberal Dogma-criticism despite suppression.
    2. The peculiarity of Central-European liberal Dogma-criticism.
    3. Prussia ś spirit of enlightenment.
    4. Anglophone revisionism in the field of Islamic studies.
    5. Perspective of liberal dogma-criticism today.

    Introduction. I. The phenomenon of ambiguity to be found in many sections of the Koran text exemplified by the text of Sura 96 and 80 : 1. The critico-exegetical interpretation of Sura 96. 2. The critico-exegetical interpretation of Sura 80. II. Comments on the rules of strophe composition applied in the Pre-Islamic Christian Hymnody as contained in the Islamic Koran : 1. The original Strophic form of Sura 89. 2. On the history of Koranic Strophe-composition. 3. Strophic composition in Sura 101. III. On the Islamic reinterpretation of the Arabic term Al-Ganna "The Garden" as the term for the promised Islamic paradise after Al-Ganna had been fiercely resisted in the pre-Islamic Christian Koran as the despised Pagan Holy Grove/high place (in Hebrew : Bamah) : Preliminary comments. IV. Distinguishing between the texts of the Pre-Islamic Christian groundlayer of the Koran and its originally Islamic texts mainly on the basis of Criteria in content : 1. The thematically contrasting parts of text in Sura 55. 2. The thematically contrasting parts of text in Sura 77. 3. The thematically contrasting parts of text in Sura 78. V. The original text of Sura 74, 1-30 : the fragment of a “Hymn to Christ” breaking off at Christ ś descent into hell : 1. The traditional interpretation of Sura 74 and Why it must be questioned critically. 2. Christ’s descent into hell : the Christological interpretation of Sura 74, 26-30. 3. The sections Sura 74, 1-10 and 74, 18-25. 4. The corroboration of our reconstruction of Sura 74, 1-30 by a significant variant reading peculiarly transmitted. 5. Supplementary remarks unto verses 74, 21-23. Epilogue. Bibliography. Indices.




    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5646 - March 01, 2019, 01:49 AM

    Quote
    I wonder whether you guys read any of works of Günter Lüling??


    Aware of his work and have only read a few pages from his English translation.


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5647 - March 01, 2019, 01:52 AM

    What about that quote from Zellentin that Yeezevee posted? He is only comparing Lulign to that scientist. What is hard to get?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5648 - March 01, 2019, 08:06 AM

    Aware of his work and have only read a few pages from his English translation.





    Same thing for me.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5649 - March 01, 2019, 12:16 PM

    Important article by Sidney H. Griffith (who alludes a little to Luling work and nasara issue ) :
    Late Antique Christology in Qurʾānic Perspective
    You can find it here : Georges Tamer (2019) - Die Koranhermeneutik von Günter Lüling

    Available: https://bit.ly/2TjQDPr

    thanks to Maghraye.

    Interesting as Griffith  has worked since time about this topic.
    1st edit : Reynolds in (in fact) on the same side as Griffith about the :
    "A considerable controversy has arisen among recent historians of Islamic
    origins about the Christian denominational identity of the “Nazarenes” (an-na-
    ṣārā), the Qurʾānic term for “Christians”, of whom the Qurʾān speaks some fourteen
    times. On the basis of what the Qurʾān has to say about Jesus the Messiah
    and his mother, Mary, many researchers have taken the evidence of the relevant
    passages as a warrant for postulating the existence in the Arabian ḥijāz in the
    first third of the seventh century of groups known from earlier Christian heresiographical
    texts, whose Christology most nearly approximates that of the Qurʾān,
    whose views could then be considered as sources for the Arabic scripture. It is in
    this way that a number of historians have taken the further step of postulating
    the active presence in Arabia of various branches of Jewish Christians, principally the so-called “Ebionites”, “Elkasaites”, and “Nazarenes”, albeit that no other
    shred of evidence for their survival in Arabia in the early seventh century has
    come to hand. Having thus postulated their presence and actual influence on
    the emerging Qurʾānic teaching, these scholars have not hesitated as a consequence
    to cite them as present sources contributing to and even determining
    the Christology of the Arabic scripture.⁴ By way of contrast, the present writer
    has argued that the hermeneutically more plausible approach to discerning
    the denominational and creedal identity of the Christians within the Qurʾān’s
    purview, along with the Christology which the Qurʾān challenges, is to consider
    the Qurʾān’s pertinent objections in reference to the views of the Christian communities
    actually historically discoverable within its early seventh century milieu,
    namely the so-called “Melkites”, “Jacobites”, and “Nestorians”, who,
    along with the Manichees, flourished along the Arabian periphery and within
    Arabia proper at the very moment of the Qurʾān’s origins.⁵"
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5650 - March 01, 2019, 01:00 PM

    Thanks, Altara. Griffith article is certainly interesting and provides a decent overview of recent scholarly controversies. Griffith's remarks somewhat echo that of Guy Stroumsa, namely, that most scholars opine that “Nazarenes” (an-naṣārā) are not mainline Christians. Griffith, however, does seem rather dismissive in certain cases, as some scholars have noted.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5651 - March 01, 2019, 01:20 PM

    By way of contrast, the present writer has argued that the hermeneutically more plausible approach to discerning
    the denominational and creedal identity of the Christians within the Qurʾān’s purview, along with the Christology which the Qurʾān challenges, is to consider the Qurʾān’s pertinent objections in reference to the views of the Christian communities actually historically discoverable within its early seventh century milieu, namely the so-called “Melkites”, “Jacobites”, and “Nestorians”, who, along with the Manichees, flourished along the Arabian periphery and within Arabia proper at the very moment of the Qurʾān’s origins.⁵"

    He considers the nasara as christians.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5652 - March 01, 2019, 01:21 PM

    Yes, and so does Stroumsa. Griffith is an adamant opponent of the Jewish-Christianity hypothesis. He even wrote a very harsh review of de Blois article, for instance.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5653 - March 01, 2019, 01:51 PM

    It is (in the same time) very much more complicated and very much more simple than it appears. As scholars are stuck to the frame Mecca/Kaba/Zem Zem, they cannot make sense of it. From the moment one have put aside this frame, all is more clear and understandable, like Copernic has put aside Ptolemy,  and Einstein the "ether paradigm" which was believed to be "true" as the  Mecca/Kaba/Zem Zem is believed historically "true" for 90% of scholars.
    It is (sometimes, not always) much more complicated to put aside paradigm history than scientific ones.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5654 - March 01, 2019, 03:23 PM

    Important article by Sidney H. Griffith (who alludes a little to Luling work and nasara issue ) :
    Late Antique Christology in Qurʾānic Perspective
    You can find it here : Georges Tamer (2019) - Die Koranhermeneutik von Günter Lüling

    Available: https://bit.ly/2TjQDPr


    is that not interesting?

    Question dear Altara.,

    1). Does Sidney  Griffith  consider existence of Prophet of Islam "............ "Muhammad"....."  from the present geographical area Mecca & Madina?Huh?

    2). Or Does he think There was "Muhammad"  a prophet   but he was NOT from present Mecca..or Madina

    3). or Does he consider Muhammad(PBUH) of Islam was actually a Christian or Jewish guy  from some Jewish sects  or Christian sects  of Arabia?


    Well I am scanning wiki  and on him  it says
    Quote
      .........professor of Early Christian Studies at the Catholic University of America.[1] His main areas of interest are Arabic Christianity, Syriac monasticism, medieval Christian-M.......... Griffith began his career when he was ordained a Catholic priest in 1965. He continued his studies and was awarded a licentiate in theology in 1967. In 1977, he graduated with a Ph.D. from the same university. The subject of the thesis was Syriac and Medieval Arabic. He immediately assumed teaching duties, and in 1984 rose to director of the university's Graduate Program in Early Christian Studies. During his career, he has been a visiting professor or fellow at, among other institutions, The Institute for Advanced Studies at The Hebrew University of Jerusalem and Georgetown University. Furthermore, he has been president of three separate professional societies in his field. He has published prolifically on Syriac Christianity and Christian Arabs.[1][3]

    His main areas of interest are Arabic Christianity, Syriac monasticism, medieval Christian-Muslim encounters and ecumenical and interfaith dialogue.[2] He serves on the advisory board of the journal Collectanea Christiana Orientalia,[4] and gives guest lectures at prestigious institutions.......

     

    that is what it says .. well that answers a bit.,   those who worked at Georgetown university religious departments CAN NOT QUESTION THE EXISTENCE OF MUHAMMAD .. Prophet of Islam..

    but it is very unfortunate that Günter Lüling   was NOT given proper credit for his work when he was alive

    Quote
    Günter Lüling (* October 25, 1928 in Varna, Bulgaria † 10. September 2014) was a German Protestant theologian, philological scholar (Dr. in Arabistics and Islamics) and pioneer in the study of early Islamic origins. From 1962 to 1965 he was the Director of the German Goethe-Institut in Aleppo, Syria. 

    Quote
    A student of Albert Schweitzer and Martin Werner, he attempted to demonstrate the textual link between pre-Islamic Christian hymnody in the Middle East to the composition of the Qur'an. He theorized that the early believers of what later became Orthodox Islam were originally one of the worldwide last communities sticking to a - supposedly original - non-Trinitarian Christian creed whose theological positions were adopted by later generations to become the purely Arab ethno-centric religion Islam (i.e. "religion of Abraham and the tribes"). He also proposed that the Meccan and Central Arabian adversaries of Muhammad, the "mushrikun", the "associators" or those who "associate" other gods to God, were Trinitarian Christians but who were in early post prophetic times reinterpreted as if having been "idolators" or "pagans



    well you got be from AMRIKA if you want to become famous in Islamic studies/Islamic history..  anyways   I must read his book  .

    - A challenge to Islam for reformation: the rediscovery and reliable reconstruction of a comprehensive pre-Islamic Christian hymnal hidden in the Koran under Islamic reinterpretations, ..................New Delhi, Motilal Banarsidass Publishers, 2003


    Oh my goodness Amazon Jungle says ..   
    Quote
    Hardcover from $103.99
    5 Used from $103.99
    2 New from $790.83



    err that is too costly ............but  it must be a good book

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5655 - March 01, 2019, 04:49 PM

    1/ Formally yes.
    2/...
    3/ He does not talk of Muhammad very much, instead he talks of the Quran (haha!)





     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5656 - March 02, 2019, 08:28 AM

    Hallo.
    The academic discussion about the origins of Islam and the Quran is slowly getting known and debated among Islam critics, imams and the believers. Abdullah Sameer, an ex-Muslim, just said recently that it was just a short time ago, that he heard about these topics and he has for many years been running a Muslim blog.
    Ali A. Rizvi in the Secular Jihadists is talking more and more about the research that has been done.
    But here is a video from yesterday by Mufti Abu Layth about the Sanaa palimpsest.
    So maybe the discussion on the origins of Islam is finally "coming out of the closet"?

    https://youtu.be/K6fAZ7xW53Y
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5657 - March 02, 2019, 09:54 AM

    I do not think that there ever was a closet per se, at least not concerning certain topics, manuscripts being one of them. Those you named, dear Asbjoern, are not intellectuals. They are very dumb and illiterate on every topic they have spoken about. Quranic Studies is not an exception. Them speaking about recent controversies in the field is not in any way significant nor should it be lauded. Anyway, this is only my own thoughts on the matter. Personally, I find it to be very good that you are doing some reading and learning, but do not take your information from those individuals.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5658 - March 02, 2019, 10:08 AM

    Thanks for your reply, Mahgraye.
    Well, in this forum, I am "the idiot". I am learning new things all the time. I am referring to these people to show that the debate is now moving outside of the academic circles, not that they are well educated on the stuff.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5659 - March 02, 2019, 10:13 AM

    Not at all. You are by no means an idiot, haha. But I got your point about the debate going public. This article by Peter von Sivers will then be of your interest to you:

    https://bit.ly/2Vvcpx5

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5660 - March 02, 2019, 10:56 AM

    ......................
    But here is a video from yesterday by Mufti Abu Layth about the Sanaa palimpsest.
    So maybe the discussion on the origins of Islam is finally "coming out of the closet"?

    https://youtu.be/K6fAZ7xW53Y

    thank you for that tube link of   Islamic Intellectual dear  Asbjoern1958

    Mufti Abu Layth al-Maliki you tube channel[



    that is what happens when kids come out   of Pakistan mosques & Kids coming out of west that were taught by Mullhs and Muftis Islam who  were trained in Pakistani Madrassahs

     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Bnkq6HiHEs

     

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5661 - March 02, 2019, 10:58 AM

    He disgusts me. Such a degenarate. Apostate, too.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5662 - March 02, 2019, 02:07 PM

    Mahgraye,

    What's so awful about  Mufti Abu Layth? He sounds like a reasonable and symphatetic believer?

    Bjoern,

    I enjoy everyone commenting here ( I hope the feeling is reciprocal) and I am glad you join in. Everyone is here to learn, some seem further down the path of knowledge. Except Altara, he knows everything already! Cheesy
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5663 - March 02, 2019, 03:18 PM

    Quote
    Except Altara, he knows everything already!  Cheesy


    I confirm  Wink  I add that it needed hard work...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5664 - March 02, 2019, 03:27 PM

    Quote
    I confirm  Wink  I add that it needed hard work...


    yesss..I  too  confirm Altara NEED TO WORK HARDER..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5665 - March 02, 2019, 03:58 PM

    Hahaha!  Cheesy
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5666 - March 02, 2019, 04:00 PM

    This group is so much fun!
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5667 - March 02, 2019, 06:25 PM

    Quote
    Except Altara, he knows everything already!

     

    Haha. So true. And he does not share anything.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5668 - March 02, 2019, 06:32 PM

    Quote
    What's so awful about  Mufti Abu Layth? He sounds like a reasonable and sympathetic believer?


    He is an illiterate, degenerate, dishonest, individual. That is why I do not like him. Besides, he is not a Muslim at all. A complete heretic and an apostate by Muslim standards.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5669 - March 02, 2019, 06:40 PM

    Quote
    He is an illiterate, degenerate, dishonest, individual


    What has he done? Heretic, apostate? ( I just listened 30 min to him, maybe I should do the full hour... I thought reading Popp was a better use of my time, I might be wrong)
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