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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6030 - March 14, 2019, 09:58 AM
    Gabriel

    Quote
    Quote from: Mahgraye on March 13, 2019, 01:14 PM
    So, the mother tongue of the author(s) was Syriac? Interesting. Reminds me of Luxenberg, Gilliot, etc., etc. ................

    Quote from: Marc S on March 13, 2019, 11:48 PM
    "A. Yusuf Ali admits that the Qur’anic word “samad” could be translated by one word. He has interpreted “samad” as ‘eternal’. Aramaic , “smd” meaning ‘bind, join’ (Num. 25: 3); 3rd.p.m.plu. “wysmd” they attached themselves to (Psa. 106: 28), etc.
    The correct interpretation is: ‘Allah, the binder’."

    The Qur'an: Misinterpreted, Mistranslated, and Misread. The Aramaic Language of the Qur'an by Gabriel Sawma



    Islamophobes....Islamophobia....

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSqOBgDvQnw

    worth watching  ...How Syrian/Lebanese  Christians trying to change Islam
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6031 - March 14, 2019, 11:12 AM
    Quote from: Marc S on March 13, 2019, 11:48 PM
    "A. Yusuf Ali admits that the Qur’anic word “samad” could be translated by one word. He has interpreted “samad” as ‘eternal’. Aramaic , “smd” meaning ‘bind, join’ (Num. 25: 3); 3rd.p.m.plu. “wysmd” they attached themselves to (Psa. 106: 28), etc.
    The correct interpretation is: ‘Allah, the binder’."

    The Qur'an: Misinterpreted, Mistranslated, and Misread. The Aramaic Language of the Qur'an by Gabriel Sawma


    That is the result of what I pointed earlier in the conversation with Maghrayé about the Quranic text. Read the Griffith papers, 2007-2019 >>> Academia (yawn...)
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6032 - March 14, 2019, 09:04 PM
    Mark Durie : Did Ishmael father the Arab nations ?


    https://www.academia.edu/38532396/Duries_Verdict._No_Mohammed._Part_Two_Did_Ishmael_father_the_Arab_nations
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6033 - March 14, 2019, 09:17 PM
    Is this Gabriel Sawma even a credible source? I have listened to him and his book seem to be even worse than Luxenberg's.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6034 - March 14, 2019, 09:20 PM
    Quote from: Altara on March 13, 2019, 11:08 PM
    “If they ask you about the Spirit, then answer: The Spirit (is = proceeds) from the Logos of my Lord” (cf. the Creed of Nicaea-Constantinople: “et in Spiritum Sanctum qui ex Patre Filioque procedit”).
    From what book of Luxenberg  is that?

    I translate Blachère : "answer :" The Spirit proceeds of the Order of my Lord"
    In Arabic there is no "proceed" but min amri rabbī
    But it is resembling to the "Spiritum Sanctum qui ex Patre procedit"
    Luxenberg event if he does no translate like me, seems right. Both are resembling.

    "The rejection of this doctrine in Sura 5:73 shows that the author of this anathema overlooked or did not comprehend the theological statement in Sura 17:85."
    Dye, Segovia et al. would say that 5,73 is a different layer of scripture from 17,85.






    So your translation is somewhat different from Luxenberg's, but you think he some more or less right in that there is a resemblance?

    So, does the Quran affirm the Trinity? And what about his translation of Surat al-Ikhlas? I quoted that too. Really confused.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6035 - March 14, 2019, 09:50 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on March 14, 2019, 09:17 PM
    Is this Gabriel Sawma even a credible source? I have listened to him and his book seem to be even worse than Luxenberg's.


    Well, I once gave the link to the following page where they ran an analysis on surah 111 ad where they said that this surah is in fact about Kore a biblical character.

    http://www.lechampdumidrash.net/ancien/mobile/articles.php?lng=fr&pg=584

    On the fact that verse 5 speak of a rope, this is what they say : " The Midrash on Proverbs makes a parralel between Kore and Haman : both were rich, proud, listened to their wives and fell. This parralel could explain the missing link about the fact the Quran is mentionning a rope. Haman's wife had a link to a rope because Haman and his kids were hanged. The Midrash also tell us that "Those who trust in their riches will fall (Proverbs 11:28).

    Now, let's turn to Gabriel Sawma on surah 111 :

    "Verse 111: 3, says the following: ‘his earnings were lying down with no help’ (i.e, his wealth did not help)."

    "Verse 111:6  ; The three commentators mention ‘palm-tree’ which is absent from the Qur’anic verse. The correct interpretation is: ‘her neck is restrained by a rope that has been fixed’, i.e. ready to be hanged. "

    So the parallel between the 2 different reviews of the text is quite surprising. Maybe it is a coincidence, who knows, or maybe there is some truth in the methodology.


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6036 - March 14, 2019, 11:01 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on March 14, 2019, 09:20 PM

    So your translation is somewhat different from Luxenberg's, but you think he some more or less right in that there is a resemblance?


    Yes. There is an objective resemblance for those who knows the Creed of Nicaea-Constantinople and who read the Quranic passage. The reader cannot not realized that what he read in the Quran resembles to something he knows.

    Quote
    So, does the Quran affirm the Trinity?


    It affirms (just) a part of the concept concerning the Spirit.
    Quote
    And what about his translation of Surat al-Ikhlas? I quoted that too. Really confused.

    Not clear for me, from where that come from?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6037 - March 15, 2019, 02:23 AM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on March 12, 2019, 02:42 PM
    Do you not think parts of the earliest Quran were written in Syriac and subsequently translated into Arabic?


    Arabo-Aramaic and 'Arabiyya: From Ancient Arabic to early standard Arabic, 200 CE–600 CE (Ernst Axel Knauf) ln The Qurʾān in Context
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6038 - March 15, 2019, 02:32 AM
    Quote from: Marc S on March 12, 2019, 03:44 PM
    An interesting article about the genre of Christian-Arabs disputation  by Syriac Christians and that explain the interest of those so-called debates  Wink

    Disputes with Muslims in Syriac Christian Texts: From Patriarch John (d. 648) to Bar Hebreus (d. 1286) Prof. SIDNEY H. GRIFFITH

    http://www.syriacstudies.com/2016/02/08/disputes-with-muslims-in-syriac-christian-texts-from-patriarch-john-d-648-to-bar-hebreus-d-1286-prof-sidney-h-griffith/


    And?

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6039 - March 15, 2019, 04:44 AM
    Quote from: Altara on March 15, 2019, 02:23 AM
    Arabo-Aramaic and 'Arabiyya: From Ancient Arabic to early standard Arabic, 200 CE–600 CE (Ernst Axel Knauf) ln The Qurʾān in Context

     good stuff.. good stuff well  that is 9 year old work and an important one., why don't we put that pdf file here for readers  dear Altara? .. In fact let me give that  whole book pdf file..

    The Qurʾān in Context Historical and Literary Investigations into the  Qurʾānic Milieu Edited by Angelika Neuwirth., Nicolai Sinai.,  Michael Marx..

    I hope Marc and mundi who are active in this folder must  read some reviews from that book.. other wise please download the pdf file  and read
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6040 - March 15, 2019, 04:52 AM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on March 14, 2019, 09:17 PM
    Is this Gabriel Sawma even a credible source? I have listened to him and his book seem to be even worse than Luxenberg's.

    NOPE HIS BOOK/WORK... IS NOT A CREDIBLE SOURCE OF HISTORY OF ISLAM....  Gabriel is not an historian neither he read Quran, OT& NT in detail..He is a Lebanese Lawyer ... Expert in divorces and its problems with women marrying middle eastern Muslim men..  He only knows Sharia laws  and the problems in it and and how to overcome the problems using   "Islamic Law" itself ..  . He became famous because  of present American President Mr. Donald Trump  and his administration ....

    please read through these  links  and watch the tubes

    Quote
    http://www.americanmideast.com/Gabriel_Sawma/
    http://gabrielsawma.blogspot.com/
    https://muslimdivorceinuscourts.com/curriculum-vitae-for-prof-gabriel-sawma/
    https://twitter.com/gabrielsawma?lang=en
    http://angryarab.blogspot.com/2017/02/is-gabriel-sawma-middle-east-advisor-to.html

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yu2W3o__7d0
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-9XOBadvP8


    Just because he is NOT a expert historian doesn't mean he  is telling lies about Islam ..   He is telling about  Islam of his times... and Islam of what he knows from travelling around middle east...
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6041 - March 15, 2019, 05:35 AM
    Marc    wrote something on Quran surah 111 and proverbs .,  It is important to read them
    Quote
    Quote from: Marc S on March 14, 2019, 09:50 PM
    Well, I once gave the link to the following page where they ran an analysis on surah 111 ad where they said that this surah is in fact about Kore a biblical character.

    http://www.lechampdumidrash.net/ancien/mobile/articles.php?lng=fr&pg=584


    ............. (Proverbs 11:28).

    Now, let's turn to  Gabriel Sawma on surah 111 :

    "Verse 111: 3, says.........

    "Verse 111:6    ............

    well let us read Quran  after all this surah has only 5 verses.. so let us read all 5 famous translations...

    Quote
      Verse -1

    Arabic:                       تَبَّتْ يَدَا أَبِي لَهَبٍ وَتَبَّ       
    Transliteration:   Tabbat yada abee lahabin watabbae.[/i] 

    Yusuf Ali:   Perish the hands of the Father of Flame! Perish he!e. 
    Shakir:   Perdition overtake both hands of Abu Lahab, and he will perish.e. 
    Pickthall:   The power of Abu Lahab will perish, and he will perish.e. 
    Mohsin Khan:   Perish the two hands of Abu Lahab (an uncle of the Prophet) and perish he!e. 
    Saheeh:   May the hands of Abu Lahab be ruined, and ruined is he. 

    Quote
    Verse -2

    Arabic:      مَا أَغْنَىٰ عَنْهُ مَالُهُ وَمَا كَسَبَ
    Transliteration:    Ma aghna AAanhu maluhu wama kasaba

    Yusuf Ali:    No profit to him from all his wealth, and all his gains!
    Shakir:    His wealth and what he earns will not avail him.
    Pickthall:    His wealth and gains will not exempt him.
    Mohsin Khan:    His wealth and his children will not benefit him!
    Saheeh:    His wealth will not avail him or that which he gained.

    Quote
    Verse -3

    Arabic:   سَيَصْلَىٰ نَارًا ذَاتَ لَهَبٍ
    Transliteration:    Sayasla naran thata lahabin

    Yusuf Ali:     Burnt soon will he be in a Fire of Blazing Flame!
    Shakir:     He shall soon burn in fire that flames,
    Pickthall:    He will be plunged in flaming Fire,
    Mohsin Khan:     He will be burnt in a Fire of blazing flames!
    Saheeh:     He will [enter to] burn in a Fire of [blazing] flame

    Quote
    Verse -4

    Arabic:          وَامْرَأَتُهُ حَمَّالَةَ الْحَطَبِ
    Transliteration:    Waimraatuhu hammalata alhatabi

    Yusuf Ali:     His wife shall carry the (crackling) wood - As fuel!-
    Shakir:     And his wife, the bearer of fuel,
    Pickthall:     And his wife, the wood-carrier,
    Mohsin Khan:     And his wife, too, who carries wood (thorns of Sa'dan which she used to put on the way of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم, or use to slander him).
    Saheeh:     And his wife [as well] - the carrier of firewood.

    Quote
    Verse -5

     Arabic:                فِي جِيدِهَا حَبْلٌ مِّن مَّسَدٍ
    Transliteration:    Fee jeediha hablun min masadin

    Yusuf Ali:     A twisted rope of palm-leaf fibre round her (own) neck!
    Shakir:     Upon her neck a halter of strongly twisted rope.
    Pickthall:     Will have upon her neck a halter of palm-fibre.
    Mohsin Khan:    I n her neck is a twisted rope of Masad (palm fibre).
    Saheeh:     Around her neck is a rope of [twisted] fiber.

    well  those are the 5 verses  but I didn't understand what Marc S is trying to say on those verses...   
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6042 - March 15, 2019, 11:18 AM
     About Q 2,127 : The foundations of the house (Q 2: 127)

    Joseph Witztum
    http://www.jstor.org/stable/40378843?origin=JSTOR-pdf

    Abstract
     In Quran 2: 127 Ibrahim founded "the house" (most probably a reference to the Kacba) together with his son Ismacil. This scene does not appear in the Bible and none of the attempts to find a literary precedent for it are satisfactory. This paper argues that this scene reflects post-biblical tra- ditions concerning Genesis 22. The argument is based on a comparison of the Quran, quranic commentaries, rabbinic sources and Syriac homilies on Gen. 22. After suggesting an origin for the story, the paper analyses the ways in which the Quran adapted and appropriated the story to its needs. The replacement of Isaac with Ismail is a central point addressed in this context.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6043 - March 15, 2019, 11:54 AM
    Quote from: yeezevee on March 15, 2019, 05:35 AM
    I didn't understand what Marc S is trying to say ...   



    Welcome in the club! (yawn...)
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6044 - March 15, 2019, 12:55 PM
    Quote
    Dye, Segovia et al. would say that 5,73 is a different layer of scripture from 17,85.


    Dye does not think that Q 17:85 and 5:72 are from different layers.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6045 - March 15, 2019, 01:25 PM
    I meant in the understanding of Luxenberg where he sees in 17,85 a kind of affirmation of the Trinity concept. (That I do not, I said : (just) a part and only regarding the Spirit.) Therefore I consider that Luxenberg is driven by its own  agenda (like the Gallez galaxy)... It is not the Trinity concept BUT a part of it and only regarding the Spirit. Then it can be considered that 5,73 if someone adopt the Luxenberg point of view contradicts 17,85 ; then could be a different layer of scripture when one considers that the Quran is a layered tax, as Segovia and Dye.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6046 - March 15, 2019, 01:33 PM
    Quote
    I meant in the understanding of Luxenberg where he sees in 17,85 a kind of affirmation of the Trinity concept. (That I do not, I said : (just) a part and only regarding the Spirit.) Therefore I consider that Luxenberg is driven by its own agenda (like the Gallez galaxy)... It is not the Trinity concept BUT a part of it and only regarding the Spirit. Then it can be considered that 5,73 if someone adopt the Luxenberg point of view contradicts 17,85 ; then could be a different layer of scripture when one considers that the Quran is a layered tax, as Segovia and Dye.


    I see your point. The word amr does not mean Logos. Luxenberg is wrong there, too.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6047 - March 15, 2019, 02:23 PM
    Quote from: Marc S on March 14, 2019, 09:04 PM
    Mark Durie : Did Ishmael father the Arab nations ?


    https://www.academia.edu/38532396/Duries_Verdict._No_Mohammed._Part_Two_Did_Ishmael_father_the_Arab_nations


    Yes. That's why the Quran uses it.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6048 - March 15, 2019, 02:25 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on March 15, 2019, 01:33 PM
    I see your point. The word amr does not mean Logos. Luxenberg is wrong there, too.


    The author(s) of the Quran can give many senses to the words they used.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6049 - March 15, 2019, 02:26 PM
    Yes. You are right. The word amr, like many other words and expressions, is polysemic. But it does not, at least in the context of this particular verse, mean Logos.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6050 - March 15, 2019, 03:21 PM
    It depends of whom read the text. You have to consider that it is a text written for 6/7th .c people. And no one else.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6051 - March 15, 2019, 03:29 PM
    Quote from: Altara on March 15, 2019, 11:54 AM

    Welcome in the club! (yawn...)

    No..no...nooooo dear Altara ., I will not join your club .,.... but I will argue with Marc to join your club... And also  I was/am curious .,............ with all publications/books Marc reads and with all the background he has on the origin of Islam .. WHY HE IS TRYING TO AUTHENTICATE AND FOLLOW THE LAWYER  Gabriel Sawma  on the subject of early Islam or on Quran., that bother me a bit....

    Quote from: Altara on March 15, 2019, 03:21 PM
    .............. You have to consider that it is a text written for 6/7th .c people. And no one else.

    That indeed is the key to understand these so-called scriptures irrespective of faith.... 

     ...For whom they have been written ??and what was the context?...and why those scriptures/stories  were put together/written ?/..  ..

    without considering  that.,   if we folks  in 21st century go on writing  our own stories/TAFSIRS  on those age ooold sayings/books/songs/sonnets/dramas ., ........ we will be running in circles forever dear Altara  and people will become victims of terrible crimes  such as the news today...

    49 dead in New Zealand mosque attacks   ..  horrible  horrible news..

    what did the children and women folks praying in mosques did to these BRUTAL ROGUES??  is that fucking   god/allah whatever  still there?.. still watching this human tragedy??

    Oh well life goes on.....
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6052 - March 15, 2019, 03:48 PM
    On Q 2:127- Witsum

    Again it is clear how ambiguous this quranic rasm is. We know the diacritics already existed. Why this  ambiguity?

    1/ To make the text appear sacral?
    2/ Meaning got lost bc at beginning the knowledge transfer was not yet institutionalised and organised?
    3/ To avoid disputes? Everyone could give its own meaning...

    The text how it is traditionally read clearly does not make much sense. Giving new meanings is possible but difficult to know what is correct.

    To show this again I'll give the Bonnet-Emyard reading for 2:126 (nobody reacted when I did a few deays ago, maybe better luck today)

    Quote
    reading of 2:126

    traditional
    Quote
    And [mention] when Abraham said, "My Lord, make this a secure city and provide its people with fruits - whoever of them believes in Allah and the Last Day." [ Allah ] said. "And whoever disbelieves - I will grant him enjoyment for a little; then I will force him to the punishment of the Fire, and wretched is the destination." 2:126


    Bonnet
    My Lord, make this a faithful boy and provide these people with palm trees- whoever of them believes in God and the Day that will come. But whoever apostatizes, I will plant him for a short time. And I will keep him for the fire and bad is the affliction.

    Further I see that according to Gn 12 6, Abraham builds an altar for Yahweh at an oak in Sichem and in Mambré (Gn  13 18) but it is Jacob who erects a stele and calls this place house of God ( beit-el) (Gn 29 19)

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6053 - March 15, 2019, 03:51 PM
    De Blois and others were not convinced by this reading. Maybe I can dig up their comments.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6054 - March 15, 2019, 04:19 PM
    Quote from: yeezevee on March 15, 2019, 03:29 PM
    No..no...nooooo dear Altara ., I will not join your club .,.... but I will argue with Marc to join your club... And also  I was/am curious .,............ with all publications/books Marc reads and with all the background he has on the origin of Islam .. WHY HE IS TRYING TO AUTHENTICATE AND FOLLOW THE LAWYER  Gabriel Sawma  on the subject of early Islam or on Quran., that bother me a bit....
    That indeed is the key to understand these so-called scriptures irrespective of faith.... 

     


    Yeezevee, I don't think you really had a look at Gabriel Sawma's work hence your confusion ; he didn't work on the origins of Islam ; he just says the Quran was badly translated from Aramaic so he wrote a book about how the Quran should be read and he explain how Aramaic allows him to do this reconstrcution of the true (for him) meaning of the Quran.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6055 - March 15, 2019, 04:24 PM
    Quote from: yeezevee on March 15, 2019, 05:35 AM

    well  those are the 5 verses  but I didn't understand what Marc S is trying to say on those verses...   


    Maghraye asked if Gabriel Sawma is reliable.

    I just said that, on surah 111 verse 5, he reconstructs that verse in a certain way ; that reconstruction gives a new meaning to verse 5 ; that meaning can be connacted to the context of what is the meaning of the whole surah 111 according to a web site that has been arguing that surah 111 doesn't mean what the muslim tradition says it means.

    So 2 different people with 2 diffeerent methodologies get to th same understanding of the text ; there might be some truth in what they say.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6056 - March 15, 2019, 04:31 PM
    Quote
    according to a web site that has been arguing that surah 111 doesn't mean what the muslim tradition says it means.


    what Muslim tradition?  which Muslim tradition dear Marc?? Who Authorizes which Muslim tradition is correct Tafsir for Quran verses dear Marc??
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6057 - March 15, 2019, 04:36 PM
    The muslim tradition about Abu Lahab.

    But the website I am refering to is not muslim and contradict the muslim narrative.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6058 - March 15, 2019, 05:30 PM
    Mark- on Korah,

    Trying to get into the discussion here. Your readings seem to make sense.

    What do we learn from this? What we already knew and that is that parts of the Quran are inspired by a Christian tradition, parts by the Jewish tradition. Can we expect a single author or group of authors to have known both sufficiently well to produce the Quran? Or should we look at different groups each from a different tradition and their papers were merged at a later stage?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6059 - March 15, 2019, 05:59 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on March 15, 2019, 03:51 PM
    De Blois and others were not convinced by this reading. Maybe I can dig up their comments.

    Yet it is the evident reading whatever de Blois et al. think. As I already said,  the use of words by the Quranic author(s) is unlike any other.
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