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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6180 - March 19, 2019, 12:59 PM

    Interesting. Which findings for example ?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6181 - March 19, 2019, 01:07 PM

    Quote
    As to the question of when the consonantal skeleton finally reached closure and the corpus no longer was open to further editions—that is, the date of the Qurʾān’s codification and establishment of the ne varietur text—most Islamologists now agree that this occurred by at least the late first/seventh century (for this consensus, see Jonathan E. Brockopp, “Islamic Origins and Incidental Normativity,” Journal of the American Academy of Religion 84 [2016], p. 34). However, there are currently two competing dates in modern scholarship: [1] middle of the first/seventh century (650s CE) under ʿUthmān b. ʿAffān (r. 23–35 AH/644–56 CE); or [2] between the beginning and the end of the second half of the first/seventh century (c. 685–705 CE) under the Umayyad caliph ʿAbd al-Malik b. Marwān (r. 65–85 AH/704–704 CE) and his patron, al-Ḥajjāj b. Yūsuf al-Thaqafī (r. 75–96 AH/694–713 CE).

    For the first possibility, see Estelle Whelan, “Forgotten Witness: Evidence for the Early Codification of the Qurʾān,” Journal of the American Oriental Society 118 (1998), pp. 1–14; Michael Cook, “A Koranic Codex Inherited by Mālik from His Grandfather,” Graeco-Arabica 7–8 (2000), pp. 93–105; id., “The Stemma of the Regional Codices of the Koran,” Graeco-Arabica 9–10 (2004), pp. 89–104; Behnam Sadeghi and Uwe Bergmann, “The Codex of a Companion of the Prophet and the Qurʾān of the Prophet,” Arabica 57 (2010), pp. 343–436; id., & Mohsen Goudarzi, “Ṣanʿāʾ 1 and the Origins of the Qurʾān,” Der Islam 87 (2012), pp. 1–129; Yasin Dutton, “An Umayyad Fragment of the Qurʾan and its Dating,” Journal of Qurʾanic Studies 9 (2007), pp. 57–87; Gregor Schoeler, “The Codification of the Qurʾan: A Comment of the Hypothesis of Burton and Wansbrough,” in Angelika Neuwirth, Nicolai Sinai & Michael Marx (eds.), The Qurʾān in Context: Historical and Literary Investigations into the Qurʾānic Milieu, Leiden, 2010, pp. 779–94; Nicolai Sinai, “When did the consonantal skeleton of the Quran reach closure? Part I,” Bulletin of the School of Oriental and African Studies 77 (2014), pp. 273–92; id., “When did the consonantal skeleton of the Quran reach closure? Part II,” Bulletin of the School of Oriental and African Studies 77 (2014), pp. 509–21 (Sinai’s two-part article is the status quaestionis on the matter); Herbert Berg, “The collection and canonization of the Qurʾān,” in id. (ed.), Routledge Handbook on Early Islam, London, 2017, pp. 37–48; Marijn van Putten (forthcoming).

    For the second, see Paul Casanova, Mohammed et la fin du monde, Paris, 1911, pp. 103–142 and 162; Alphonse Mingana, “The Transmission of the Ḳurʾān,” Journal of the Manchester Egyptian and Oriental Society 5 (1915–1916), pp. 25–47; Patricia Crone & Michael Cook, Hagarism: The Making of the Islamic World, Cambridge, 1977, p. 17f. (both have since retracted and now accept the ‘first possibility’; Patrica Crone, The Qurʾānic Pagans and Related Matters: Collected Studies in Three Volumes, ed. Hanna Siurua, Leiden-Boston, 2016, p. xiii; and for Michael Cook, see his 2000 and 2004 articles in Graeco-Arabica above); Patricia Crone, “Two Legal Problems Bearing on the Early History of the Qurʾān,” Jerusalem Studies in Arabic and Islam 18 (1994), pp. 1–37; Yehuda Nevo, “Towards a Prehistory of Islam,” Jerusalem Studies in Arabic and Islam 17 (1994), pp. 108–41; Stephen J. Shoemaker, “Christmas in the Qurʾān: The Qurʾānic Account of Jesus’ Nativity and Palestinian Local Tradition,” Jerusalem Studies in Arabic and Islam 28 (2003), pp. 11–39; id., The Death of a Prophet: The End of Muhammad’s Life and the Beginnings of Islam, Philadelphia, 2012, pp. 136–58; David S. Powers, Muḥammad Is Not the Father of Any of Your Men: The Making of the Last Prophet, Philadelphia, 2009, pp. 155–96 and 227–33; id., “From Nuzi to Medina: Q. 4:12b, Revisited,” in Ilan Peled (ed.), Structures of Power: Law and Gender Across the Ancient Near East and Beyond, Chicago, 2017, pp. 181–201; Alfred-Luis de Prémare, Les fondations de l’islam. Entre écriture et histoire, Paris, 2002, pp. 278–322. Arabic translation: Taʾsīs al-Islām: bayna al-kitāba wa-l-tārīkh, trans. ʿĪsā al-Muḥāsibī, Beirut, 2009, pp. 313–359; id., Aux origines du Coran: Questions d’hier, approaches d’aujourd’hui, Paris, 2004; id., “ʿAbd al-Malik b. Marwān et le processus de constitution du Coran”, in Karl-Heinz Ohlig & Gerd-Rüdiger Puin, Die dunklen Anfänge: Neue Forschungen zur Entstehung und frühen Geschichte des Islam, Berlin, 2005, pp. 179–210. English translation: “ʿAbd al-Malik b. Marwān and the Process of the Qurʾān’s Composition,” in Karl-Heinz Ohlig & Gerd-Rüdiger Puin, The Hidden Origins of Islam: New Research into Its Early History, Amherst, pp. 181–221; Chase Robinson, ʿAbd al-Malik, Oxford, 2005, pp. 100–4; Guillaume Dye, “Pourquoi et comment se fait un texte canonique: quelques réflexions sue l’histoire de Coran,” in Christian Brouwer, Guillaume Dye & Anja van Rompaey (eds.), Hérésies: une construction d’identités religieuses, Bruxelles, 2015, pp. 55–104; see also Michael Cook, The Koran: A Very Short Introduction, Oxford, 2000, pp. 119–22.

    Considering evidence from an array of disciplines and methods—including numismatics, epigraphy, philology, paleography, codicology, art history, and radiocarbon dating—suggestions placing the ne varietur text sometime in the late second/eighth and/or early third/ninth century (à la Wansbrough, for instance; Quranic Studies: Sources and Methods of Scriptural Interpretation, Oxford, 1977, pp. 44–5) are henceforth obsolete, irrespective of whether one prefers the first or second possibility (see the references above). Cf. Andrew Rippin, “Foreword”, in John Wansbrough (auth.), Quranic Studies: Sources and Methods of Scriptural Interpretation, Amherst, 2004, pp. xiv–xviii. My understanding is that the late Prof. Rippin (d. 2016) – notwithstanding certain limitations – has since aligned his views with the broader scholarly community in that the Qurʾān’s codification took place by at least the late first/seventh century. Jonathan E. Brockopp, “Islamic Origins and Incidental Normativity,” Journal of the American Academy of Religion 84 (2016), p. 34. Another ‘Wansbroughian revisionist’, Hebert Berg, has also conceded that Wansbrough’s claim concerning the ne varietur text needs modification, proposing a mid-Umayyad codification date (i.e. ‘second possibility’). Herbert Berg, “The Needle in the Haystack: Islamic Origins and the Nature of the Early Sources,” in Carlos A. Segovia & Basil Lourié (eds.), The Coming of the Comforter: When, Where, and Whom? Studies on the Rise of Islam and Various Other Topics in Memory of John Wansbrough, Piscataway, 2012, p. 272, note 3. Several years later, Berg espoused some skepticism concerning the mid-Umayyad codification hypothesis, writing that despite its appeal, it “raises more issues than it solves”. Herbert Berg, “The collection and canonization of the Qurʾān,” in id. (ed.), Routledge Handbook on Early Islam, London, 2017, p. 45.


    Please see the fourth paragraph for the answer to your question.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6182 - March 19, 2019, 01:22 PM

    https://www.academia.edu/10863446/_The_prophecy_of_%E1%B8%8E%C5%AB-l-Qarnayn_Q_18_83-102_and_the_Origins_of_the_Qur%CA%BE%C4%81nic_Corpus_._Miscellanea_arabica_2013_2014_273-90

    I think we can conclude that according to Tesei, verses 18:83-102 must be post 630. According to Corpus Coranicum, it's not in the early Sanaa manuscripts. That could be a coincidence or it could point to a later addition (but of course still 7th C). It doesnt discredit the early C14 of the Sanaa1, Codex DAM 01-25.1 or Codex DAM 01-29.1 (I think these are the 3 earliest according to https://www.islamic-awareness.org/quran/text/mss/radio.html)
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6183 - March 19, 2019, 01:30 PM

    I agree that no verse was added after the late seventh century. Everyone agrees on this. There is a consensus.

    Well many times in educational institutes consensus  means.... agreeing to a guy who holds high position in Academics  ..   often they are wrong because of their  hardheadedness dear Mahgraye   .. And if you go to religious scholars .. mullahs..imams..politicians make that consensus  ...


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6184 - March 19, 2019, 01:32 PM

    Quote
    Well many times in educational institutes consensus   agreeing to a guy who holds high position in Academics  .. often they are wrong because of their  hardheadedness dear Mahgraye   .. And if you go religious scholars .. mullahs..imams..politicians make that consensus  ...


    A consensus among critical scholars who are aware of the relevant issue and evidence. Consensuses matter. See my above post with the litterature cited.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6185 - March 19, 2019, 01:37 PM

    A consensus among critical scholars who are aware of the relevant issue and evidence. Consensuses matter. See my above post with the litterature cited.

    i know.. i know  i do read through  the literature dear Mahgraye ..  i will read through what you gave in the above post ..   you see., in one of your posts you also gave me some 500 names of scholars .. and I can easily show you from their published literature  .. THEY ARE CHANGING THE TUNES now..

    yes .. i am downloading your references .. i will go through them..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6186 - March 19, 2019, 01:44 PM

    I agree that no verse was added after the late seventh century. Everyone agrees on this. There is a consensus.

    one more point dear Mahgraye

    you are conclusively saying NOTHING IS ADDED/CHANGED  IN TO THE PRESENT QURAN  after the year 699..  and every critical scholar agree with it and there is a consensus.

    could you please put few published references on that particular point in your next post ...

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6187 - March 19, 2019, 01:45 PM

    Tomasso Tesei:

    Quote
    We can also have some confidence that he was preaching in Central Arabia and that his movement was in contact with members of a Jewish community—whose presence in the Hijaz is certified by few inscriptions

    .

    Quote
    Furthermore, from very early times, non-Islamic sources associate the new religious movement with the Hijaz. It might be observed that, if Islam had arisen elsewhere and the identification of the latter as its cradle was just an element within an idealized Islamic salvation history, one should assume that by the end of 7th c. this salvation history was already established and so widespread to influence also writers from outside the community of believers. This seems to be quite improbable.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6188 - March 19, 2019, 01:48 PM

    Quote
    could you please put few published references on that particular point in your next post ...


    See the first paragraph of my previous post where I cite Brockopp. You can see Tesei for a similar assessment. Then see the rest of the reference showing that this is the case.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6189 - March 19, 2019, 01:51 PM

    Mahgraye,

    on Tesei:

    Quote
    Furthermore, from very early times, non-Islamic sources associate the new religious movement with the Hijaz.


    That is news to me. Do you ahve an idea of his sources?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6190 - March 19, 2019, 01:52 PM

    He doesn't provide any.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6191 - March 19, 2019, 01:53 PM

    Do you know of any sources confirming that? Or is this an example of Yeez'affirmation that general concensus amongst scholars is often wrong?

    (though I agree on your Quranic closure date bc of the evidence we all have checked ourselves)
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6192 - March 19, 2019, 01:59 PM

    Altara,


    Yes.
    Quote
    I think I can agree on your resumé. [...]  part of an older tradition that indeed didn't start with Mohammed hearing stuff.


    1/ Bonnet-Eymard (1988) and Gallez (2005). I thinks that Gallez is convincing when he links the building to Q  2,127.
    2/ There is no Muhammad because there is no Mecca. It is a later creation and a (re) creation about the Kaba. Get the Hawting paper it is interesting : The origins of the Muslim sanctuary at Mecca.




    Quote
    But then what do you say about these early Qiblas?

     

    Early Qiblas not pointing "Mecca" are in line with what I say. I say that the Arabs of the "conquests" have nothing to see with the frame Mecca/Zem Zem in which they will be described as actors in the 9th narratives. BUT they had Quranic texts (same way of the Arabs,  Quranic texts did not come from Mecca) Therefore it is normal that they built "masjid" not really toward "Mecca".

    Quote
    Would these pre-Mecca orientations be part of these pre-conquest beliefs? Propagated in one of these "secret societies"I mentioned before?


     I do not think so. Simply because the 637/700 Arabs were not part of these "secret societies" (in you paradigm, not mine);  637/700 Arabs have nothing to see with the author(s) of the Quran, they did not know them.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6193 - March 19, 2019, 02:05 PM

    Altara,

    Quote
    637/700 Arabs have nothing to see with the author(s) of the Quran, they did not know them


    Again I can agree on this. But the Q-rasm was there and also according to your theory some knew about 2:127 and directed their people to start building. In my mind this could be this set of illuminati (secret society?) directing their "mercenaries" of different beliefs to do certain things. One of these things was building mosques with Qiblas to the south (not to Jeruslaem, not to Mecca). We see from early on that their own mosques were built. Someone must of directed people to perform according to a specific ideology that you see connected to the Quran (eg 2:127).
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6194 - March 19, 2019, 02:09 PM

    Please see the fourth paragraph for the answer to your question.


    Thanks, that is a long list but I wonder how people can reach such a conclusion without having performed a word by word, verse by verse, manuscript by manuscript review. Not to say they are wrong, they are probably more right than me, but that would be the only way. Maybe some of them did but I am not so sure (I had a quick look at De Premarre paper in the Hidden Origins of Islam and it is not so clear for example).
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6195 - March 19, 2019, 02:12 PM

    Tomasso Tesei:
    .
    Quote
    Furthermore, from very early times, non-Islamic sources associate the new religious movement with the Hijaz. It might be observed that, if Islam had arisen elsewhere and the identification of the latter as its cradle was just an element within an idealized Islamic salvation history, one should assume that by the end of 7th c. this salvation history was already established and so widespread to influence also writers from outside the community of believers. This seems to be quite improbable.



    well  Tesei and everyone  must realize   ISLAM IS DIFFERENT FROM QURAN..

    Any way that Quoted text from  "The Qur’ān(s) in Context(s) 1-2' by  Tomasso Tesei unpublished paper for me dear Mahgraye??

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6196 - March 19, 2019, 02:22 PM

    Marc,

    Quote
    Thanks, that is a long list but I wonder how people can reach such a conclusion without having performed a word by word, verse by verse, manuscript by manuscript review.


    I agree on this. The absence of reliable tables makes this work very difficult. Now we have to do the searching ourselves in Corpus Coranicum and Islamic awareness. And these lists of available verses and datings must be changing all the time (whenever a new folio is discovered). This would be a wonderfull thesis for a student. Magraye? You are thinking of going (back?) to school?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6197 - March 19, 2019, 02:27 PM

    Quote
    Magraye? You are thinking of going (back?) to school?


    Yeah (not go back, however). I am planning to apply to university in the following days.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6198 - March 19, 2019, 02:27 PM

    Quote
    Any way that Quoted text from  "The Qur’ān(s) in Context(s) 1-2' by  Tomasso Tesei unpublished paper for me dear Mahgraye??


    Yes.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6199 - March 19, 2019, 02:47 PM

    Quote
    Thanks, that is a long list but I wonder how people can reach such a conclusion without having performed a word by word, verse by verse, manuscript by manuscript review. Not to say they are wrong, they are probably more right than me, but that would be the only way. Maybe some of them did but I am not so sure (I had a quick look at De Premarre paper in the Hidden Origins of Islam and it is not so clear for example).


    I am not the one to ask, really, but these authors provide evidence that the Quran is an early document but that it was canonized under Abd al-Malik. Some argue under Uthman, but they agree on one thing: the Q is early. Mansucript studies show that it can't be as late as the eighth or ninth century , for instance.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6200 - March 19, 2019, 02:49 PM

    Yes.

    I see.. I read that before.. and I am reading that 20 pages pre-publication again... but sorry to say this .. It is NOT a critical work on Quran neither on origins of Islam..  just another story publication taking some Quran verses here and there and adding bit of stories from sira/hadith...

    I question all  publications  where they use of the word "Muhammad" as proper name for Prophet of Islam..   and this one from Tommaso  is no exception to that rule.

    Quote
    .............through Muḥammad in the historical context..........
    ..........abound with details about Muḥammad's life, ............
    ............accounts about the life of Muḥammad.........
    .........very different from that where Muḥammad lived and preached. ...........
     ...........how Muḥammad's preaching was understood.....................


    all that is from his first page.. that word "Muhammad" needs more words to complete the name..  So all these guys are writing stories without knowing ... who he was..   and trying to mix Quran Muhammad  with Sira/hadith Muhammad   to  write more stories on Islam..

     It really did not answer your point    THAT NOTHING IS ADDED IN TO THE PRESENT BOOK after the year 699 dear Mahgraye....

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6201 - March 19, 2019, 02:51 PM

    Then what should write instead of Muhammad? "He who has no name"? Whether muhammad is a proper name or not has no bearing on that someone carried it. Furthermore, that muhammad was not a proper name is not fact but a hypothesis. And furthermore, Tesei is a critical scholar. If you read the publication, you will see that this is the case.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6202 - March 19, 2019, 02:52 PM

    Quote
    It really did not answer your point    THAT NOTHING IS ADDED IN TO THE PRESENT BOOK after the year 699 dear Mahgraye....


    Sort of. End of the seventh century. Tesei writes: As for the Qur’ān, the canon was probably already in existence by the end of the 7th c., while scholars disagree on the exact period.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6203 - March 19, 2019, 02:59 PM

    Sort of.
    Quote
    End of the seventh century. Tesei writes: As for the Qur’ān, the canon was probably already in existence by the end of the 7th c., while scholars disagree on the exact period.


    No..no.no.  ""'THAT IS NOT  EVEN  SORT OFF ...  . that is hand waving statement     and and that word  " Quran   .. "The Canon"....   a vague word..

    in that vague sense  sense " Quran   .. "The Canon"....   is complete BEFORE THE BIRTH  OF Muhammad .. way before .  So let me ask you the question..

    What is the Quran The Canon..?? what does it mean??

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6204 - March 19, 2019, 03:02 PM

    Then what should write instead of Muhammad? "He who has no name"?

    Well explore and inquire on that .. WHERE DID THAT WORD COME FROM AND WHEN??

    Quote
    Whether muhammad is a proper name or not has no bearing on that someone carried it. Furthermore, that muhammad was not a proper name is not fact but a hypothesis. And furthermore, Tesei is a critical scholar. If you read the publication, you will see that this is the case.

    Well  let me agree to disagree with you on that

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6205 - March 19, 2019, 03:02 PM

    If you read his publications, you would agree with.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6206 - March 19, 2019, 03:04 PM

    699 is approximately the end of the seventh century. The canon? Here is what is meant by that:

    As to the question of when the consonantal skeleton finally reached closure and the corpus no longer was open to further editions—that is, the date of the Qurʾān’s codification and establishment of the ne varietur text. Meaning, when the Quran became a finished product and a context. A canon.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6207 - March 19, 2019, 03:08 PM

    Quote
    ....Here is what is meant by that:

    As to the question of when the consonantal skeleton finally reached closure and the corpus no longer was open to further editions—that is, the date of the Qurʾān’s codification and establishment of the ne varietur text. Meaning, when the Quran became a finished product and a context. A canon......


    where did you get that statement from??  whose publication

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6208 - March 19, 2019, 03:09 PM

    My wording. It is a common definition. But I guess it is inspired by Sinai.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6209 - March 19, 2019, 03:16 PM

    My wording. It is a common definition. But I guess it is inspired by Sinai.

      well that is wonderful...  anyways.. why don't you read this

    The collection and canonization of the QurʾĀn  Authored by: Herbert Berg  in  Routledge Handbook on Early Islam....   if you can get that book   please go through this

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
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