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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6420 - April 03, 2019, 11:47 AM
    Quote from: mundi on April 03, 2019, 07:44 AM

    Altara, am I starting to sound more like you?  Huh?


    Do I write about "Illuminati"   Wink

     
    Quote
    that a closed group of "illuminati" had been active on the Quranic front and had a very specific ideology worked out in the Quran and also outside. The "illuminati" were powerful enough to push through this new totally inadequate calendar for ideological crazy reasons.


    The leaders (and not Private Abdullah...) are of course displayed as military combatants and were following more or less what was understood of the Quranic texts they more or less had. Understood by them? Not necessarily but not impossible. However I consider that it was literati of the army who were high-ranking officers but not combatants who had from the point of view of their leaders the "knowledge" of what was said in the text(s). Did literati have a really  "knowledge"? I'm sure not. They just said they have, and the other believed them.


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6421 - April 03, 2019, 11:56 AM
    Altara,

    Ok, I thought I remembered you using  "illuminati" but I guess it was "litterati" !! Cheesy
    Well, personally I think "illuminati"fits better to explain what went on these first decades. This date of 9.4.631 which was enough to change the calendar into something totally unpractical has the signs of deeply  entrenched ideology. I looked for civilisations which ever had lunar calendars and I found zero, that unpractical it is. That the illuminati managed to make this system used, means that the were tightly holding the strings, even though that in teh beginning, the new ideology/religion had not spread to the masses yet.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6422 - April 03, 2019, 12:16 PM
    Quote from: Marc S on April 03, 2019, 10:58 AM
    I haven't read this article but I will, thanks Mundi.

    In other words, does this calendar really start on july 19th, 622 ?


    Possible. But the date has nothing to see with the frame Mecca/Zem Zem . Like others (Ali/Muawiya, etc) , it was dressed (no plot, in good faith...) in Islamic garments in the 9th c. Nothing attests of the frame Mecca/Zem Zem by the people in charge from 636 to 700+
    "Muhammad" being in the Quranic text(s) therefore transmitted orally to people before 636 is then set aside of the attestation. This name does not count as attesting the frame Mecca/Zem Zem such as it will be recounted in the 9th c.



  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6423 - April 03, 2019, 12:16 PM
    illuminati:

    A secret society would also explain the sober and often almost amateuristic early manuscripts. The secret text was important, not the decorations. Also scribes needed to be employed that were in on the secret, so that would have excluded the big fancy workshops that were used for the other religions fancy holy books...

    And the most evident sign: why do we know so little of the beginnings of Islam? Because it was a secret!

    I know you guys must think this sounds ridiculous, but give it some thoughts, maybe there is something in it?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6424 - April 03, 2019, 12:23 PM
    Quote from: mundi on April 03, 2019, 11:56 AM
    Altara,


    Yes.

     
    Quote
    That the illuminati  Cheesy managed to make this system used, means that the were tightly holding the strings, even though that in teh beginning, the new ideology/religion had not spread to the masses yet.


    Yes literati tried to understand the texts they have and one knows that they are particularly ambiguous about numerous topics and they decided to set up this lunar calendar as what they thought it has to be done according to the Quranic text(s) they had. It is called bricolage.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6425 - April 03, 2019, 12:27 PM
    Quote from: mundi on April 03, 2019, 12:16 PM
    illuminati:

    A secret society would also explain the sober and often almost amateuristic early manuscripts. The secret text was important, not the decorations. Also scribes needed to be employed that were in on the secret, so that would have excluded the big fancy workshops that were used for the other religions fancy holy books...

    And the most evident sign: why do we know so little of the beginnings of Islam? Because it was a secret!

    I know you guys must think this sounds ridiculous, but give it some thoughts, maybe there is something in it?


    Interesting. Can you elaborate, with sources, dates, inscriptions, historical context (I remind you, it is from Qumran to Quran, therefore almost 900 years...)
    Ground your idea.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6426 - April 03, 2019, 12:29 PM
    Quote
    from Qumran to Quran


    Read Gallez, haha.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6427 - April 03, 2019, 12:37 PM
    Quote
    Read Gallez, haha.


    Thank you Mahgraye! This saves me a lot of work.

    I dont think Gallez is so far off of the "secret society". Maybe it was not his judeo-christians that where at the core of the new movement, maybe these illuminati didn't have a centuries'old history, maybe they were a relatively new movement.

    But what Gallez says is that a relatively non-mainstream religious/ideological group managed to grab power (and loose control) with the help of an army. For Gallez that army were the Arabs. From what we seem to know, the army were mercenaries from different religions. The core illuminati apparently differentiated themselves by their arabness, and promoted that identity through the language of the Quran. Jews and Christian Arabs must have participated to writing the texts and forming the new doctrine (evidence: Quran).

    Only after the first decades, the movement was expanded and numbers were getting to be important, hence conversion stimuli.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6428 - April 05, 2019, 11:34 PM
    Peter von Siver’s discussed in a recent lecture (posted here not long ago) the identity of the “associators” (mušrikûn) in the Quran. Though he nevertheless also identifies the “associators” as Christians, he does not, contrary to scholars such as Lüling and Gallez, consider these Christians to be Trinitarians, but tritheists, which is an important qualification. This is an interesting proposal that does seem to fit well with other controversial passages dealing with the same topic, e.g. Q 4:117 (“Three [thalātha]) and Q 5:73 (“Allāh is the third of three” [thālithu thalāthatin]). You can see the lecture here: https://bit.ly/2Uk0xSr (the relevant part starts from 37:38 onwards). Please share your thoughts.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6429 - April 06, 2019, 03:58 AM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on April 05, 2019, 11:34 PM
    Peter von Siver’s discussed in a recent lecture (posted here not long ago) .................

    hello Mahgraye   .. are you talking about this one ?? otherwise I would appreciate  the link on Peter's lecture...

    this publication ............ The Islamic Origins Debate Goes Public Peter von Sivers Department of History, University of Utah .. History Compass 1 (2003) ME 058, 001–016   ............   is a good one to read

    Ha!  that was 16 years ago.. I wonder you guys  who are very active in Academic publications  of  Islamic history  could give me  the name of the  Person WHO FIRST  QUESTIONED EXISTENCE OF MECCA-MADINA-MUHAMMAD ...  I am looking for the earliest person who questioned that concept    .. So far I only know one name  "John Wansbrough"
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6430 - April 06, 2019, 11:38 AM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on April 05, 2019, 11:34 PM
    Peter von Siver’s discussed in a recent lecture (posted here not long ago) the identity of the “associators” (mušrikûn) in the Quran. Though he nevertheless also identifies the “associators” as Christians, he does not, contrary to scholars such as Lüling and Gallez, consider these Christians to be Trinitarians, but tritheists, which is an important qualification. This is an interesting proposal that does seem to fit well with other controversial passages dealing with the same topic, e.g. Q 4:117 (“Three [thalātha]) and Q 5:73 (“Allāh is the third of three” [thālithu thalāthatin]). You can see the lecture here: https://bit.ly/2Uk0xSr (the relevant part starts from 37:38 onwards). Please share your thoughts.


     [thālithu thalāthatin] is a Syriac way to talk about the Trinity concept of Christianity.
    >>>> Griffith in Academia.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6431 - April 06, 2019, 11:40 AM
    Quote from: yeezevee on April 06, 2019, 03:58 AM
    I am looking for the earliest person who questioned that concept    .. So far I only know one name  "John Wansbrough"


    It is the earliest person (to my knowledge...).
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6432 - April 06, 2019, 01:00 PM
    Quote from: Altara on April 06, 2019, 11:40 AM
    It is the earliest person (to my knowledge...).

     well then my search continues dear Altara. I wonder how John Wansbrough come to that conclusion ..

    But let me watch this guy Shabir Ally...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EX6Vdjn5jB4

    some 13 years ago I argued with that fellow to read through Dr. John Wansbrough  book..  But No one can clean up anyone's brain  .. it is for individuals to figure out.. HOW TO WASH THEIR BRAINS BY THEMSELVES ...
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6433 - April 06, 2019, 01:02 PM
    Quote
    WHO FIRST  QUESTIONED EXISTENCE OF MECCA-MADINA-MUHAMMAD


    Questioned the narrative? Then it would have to be either Wansbrough or Crone and Cook. All of them published in the same year so I am not completely sure who was first.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6434 - April 06, 2019, 01:08 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on April 06, 2019, 01:02 PM
    Questioned the narrative? Then it would have to be either Wansbrough or Crone and Cook. All of them published in the same year so I am not completely sure who was first.

    well  Crone and Cook  closely followed what Wansbrough  was saying at that time .. Then they started thinking about his concept of beginning of Islam .. John was their senior colleague.,   In fact Prof.  Wansbrough  was responsible for moving Dr. Crone from Europe to US of A...

    but dear Mahgraye again  same question to you ..... "I wonder how John Wansbrough come to that conclusion" ...........   that i posed for Altara ...
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6435 - April 06, 2019, 01:09 PM
    Oh! He applied the tools of Biblical Criticism to the Quran and the biography of Muhammad, among other things, I guess.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6436 - April 06, 2019, 01:15 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on April 06, 2019, 01:09 PM
    Oh! He applied the tools of Biblical Criticism to the Quran and the biography of Muhammad,.........

    Oh I see That is a good point ., Do you have any links of his publications ?? I only know these

    Quote
    Quranic Studies: Sources and Methods of Scriptural Interpretation (Oxford, 1977)

    The Sectarian Milieu: Content and Composition Of Islamic Salvation History (Oxford, 1978)

    Res Ipsa Loquitur: History and Mimesis (1987)

    Lingua Franca in the Mediterranean (Curzon Press 1996; Reprint by World Scientific Publishing 2012)


    and did you read through that book  edited by  Carlos A. Segovia and Basil Lourié   in Memory of John Wansbrough.?? 


    with best regards
    yeezevee
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6437 - April 06, 2019, 01:17 PM
    That's about it. He also wrote a novel. And yes, I am aware of Segovia & Lourié's anthology. Good book. Hawting and Berg as well Rippin have elucidated Wansbrough's thoughts and methods. Consult their writings.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6438 - April 11, 2019, 01:36 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on April 06, 2019, 01:17 PM
    That's about it. He also wrote a novel. And yes, I am aware of Segovia & Lourié's anthology. Good book. Hawting and Berg as well Rippin have elucidated Wansbrough's thoughts and methods. Consult their writings.


    Yes I put the pdf file link  of that book in that "downloadable book folder "  .. but I say none of these guys really explored in detail on that original(??) Dr.  John Wansbrough  conclusion ..

    I was  wondering  whether Dr.  John Wansbrough   wrote /read through any of those original  Muʿtazila ( المعتزلة al-muʿtazilah rationalist school of Islamic theology?? ..

    Anyways what is cooking in Academic Institution of Islamic theology?



    Hmm.. Mr. Prof. Dr.   Jonathan A.C. Brown becomes director of that  Prince Alwaleed Bin Talal Center for Muslim-Christian Understanding

    https://acmcu.georgetown.edu/

    AMRICA ALWAYS KEEPS THE STRINGS & CONTROLS
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6439 - April 12, 2019, 07:01 AM
    The Etymological Fallacy and Quranic Studies: Muhammad, Paradise  etc ,,, by  Walid A. Saleh

    that is a good paper    but i am not sure about this lecture...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tq2ct2vYKyY


     
    Quote
    Walid Saleh, Associate Professor and Chair of the Institute of Islamic Studies at the University of Toronto, discusses the status of the Qur’an in the 21st century.

    This lecture took place on May 1, 2016 in the Aga Khan Museum auditorium and is the second in the six-part lecture series titled “Islam and Muslims in the 21st Century.” The series features scholars and journalists who are leading thought-provoking conversations about Muslims and Islam today.

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6440 - April 12, 2019, 11:08 AM
    WALID:

    I managed to listen upto minute 11;00 and then got a bore out...
    His description of Arabia makes it clear that Mecca cannot have been the origin of the conquerors and subsequent rulers of this immense new empire.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6441 - April 12, 2019, 02:32 PM
    Christian Robin (2: 2006 ) observes that :

    "For my part, I do not believe that the origin of the Arabic alphabet can be explained only by studying letters, examined individually or in composition. It is also necessary to consider social factors and to research the environment that developed this alphabet and the reasons that guided it. However, it is not impossible to make a hypothesis about this environment of origin. It can be seen that the initiatives to win the Arabs of the Syrian and Arabian Desert to Christianity come almost all from a small region of northern Syria, namely the province Euphratesia, whose metropolitan headquarters are in Manbij (thus in Syriac, Hierapolis in Greek, Manbiǧ in Arabic) and to a lesser extent the neighbouring provinces of Osroene (metropolitan headquarters Edessa) and Syria First (metropolitan headquarters Antioch), and that they were particularly numerous during the first three decades of the sixth century."
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6442 - April 12, 2019, 02:37 PM
    I thought the Arabs neighboring the Byzantine empire were already christianised by that time... Even the ones in the Sassanian empire seem to have been too.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6443 - April 12, 2019, 03:52 PM
    Robin did not mention any time.

    "For my part, I do not believe that the origin of the Arabic alphabet [Quranic script] can be explained only by studying letters, examined individually or in composition. It is also necessary to consider social factors and to research the environment that developed this alphabet and the reasons that guided it. However, it is not impossible to make a hypothesis about this environment of origin. It can be seen that the initiatives to win the Arabs of the Syrian and Arabian Desert to Christianity come almost all from a small region of northern Syria, namely the province Euphratesia, whose metropolitan headquarters are in Manbij (thus in Syriac, Hierapolis in Greek, Manbiǧ in Arabic) and to a lesser extent the neighbouring provinces of Osroene (metropolitan headquarters Edessa) and Syria First (metropolitan headquarters Antioch), and that they were particularly numerous during the first three decades of the sixth century."

    Robin, like me, and F.Briquel-Chatonnet is sceptic and does not believe of the only Arab creation of the Quranic script supported by the Anglo Saxon school.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6444 - April 12, 2019, 05:32 PM
    Quote
    Christian Robin (2: 2006 ) observes that :

    "For my part, I do not believe that the origin of the Arabic alphabet can be explained only by studying letters, examined individually or in composition. It is also necessary to consider social factors and to research the environment that developed this alphabet and the reasons that guided it. However, it is not impossible to make a hypothesis about this environment of origin. It can be seen that the initiatives to win the Arabs of the Syrian and Arabian Desert to Christianity come almost all from a small region of northern Syria, namely the province Euphratesia, whose metropolitan headquarters are in Manbij (thus in Syriac, Hierapolis in Greek, Manbiǧ in Arabic) and to a lesser extent the neighbouring provinces of Osroene (metropolitan headquarters Edessa) and Syria First (metropolitan headquarters Antioch), and that they were particularly numerous during the first three decades of the sixth century."


    Thanks. This is really important. Emphasizing the socio-historic context of the development of the Quranic script, in contrast to only focusing on letter shaper (although important), is very convincing.

    Robin does seem to favor the French school of the Syriac hypothesis.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6445 - April 12, 2019, 07:44 PM
    Robin:

    I really dont see the relevance of what he states for the development of the Arabic script. Is there anything concrete that links its development to the Manbij area?

    We know Christianity was spread amongst the Arabs of Negev and rest of Nabatean realm. Arab towns in todays Jordan  contained a multitude of churches.

    So no, I dont see what Robin adds to the discussion.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6446 - April 12, 2019, 07:45 PM
    The context points to Syriac, perhaps. Similar to Briquel-Chatonnet.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6447 - April 12, 2019, 07:53 PM
    Syriac was everywhere, not just in the Mabij area.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6448 - April 12, 2019, 07:57 PM
    Before the conquests, Arabic script existed but was not wide spread. If it were, we would have found more of it.

    So how does one keep alive a script that is hardly used? Some institution must have existed to cherish the script and have it ready to write the Quran in.

    It doesnt really seem to be the traditional church institutions who continued well after the conquest to use uniquely Syriac and Greek, also where there were Arabic speakers.

    Any suggestions?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6449 - April 12, 2019, 09:02 PM
    Quote
    Before the conquests, Arabic script existed but was not wide spread...

     
    where one have searched . Lacks Iraq. It has never been searched by Westerners as it was never a dominion.
     
    Quote
    If it were, we would have found more of it


    Not necessarily.
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