Qur'anic studies today

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Reply #7080 - June 27, 2019, 09:51 AM

Quote from: mundi on June 27, 2019, 06:27 AM
Altara,

Gibson's explanation for the absence of Mohammed records in Petra: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jsrhJ8B2vM

i too have 100s of books and 1000 pdf pubs which i collected for the past 15years or so on hard disks as well as some in hard copies and i can easily question those books i read and what Gibson saying on existence of Muhammad in the tube dear mundi....

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #7081 - June 27, 2019, 10:04 AM

Yeez,

No doubt you can make a video debunking Gibson or whoever. So what should we do? Give up trying to understand? Or when you make your video, we can post that one too and discuss it...
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Reply #7082 - June 27, 2019, 01:55 PM

Quote from: Asbjoern1958 on June 27, 2019, 06:14 AM
Thanks a lot for your piece of advice, Altara.

No problem.

Quote
I will stop wasting my time.

Good. It is the first step. The second is to try to understand why what say the tradition has nothing to see whith what one observes (many) times.
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Reply #7083 - June 27, 2019, 05:51 PM

Quote from: mundi on June 27, 2019, 06:27 AM
Altara,

Gibson's explanation for the absence of Mohammed records in Petra: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jsrhJ8B2vM

Well, let's go...(yawn...)

1/ "Roman army" reaction or whatever. Just allusion to the narrative : a man speaking to the Biblical God. It cannot be remains concealed. In Mars maybe, not in Petra.

2/ "He preached polytheists": There is no attestation of polytheists in Petra which is a bishopric since 358. Roman authorities would have not permit it during 3 centuries when one sees what they do about Christian heresies... Gibson is not a historian... (yawn...)

3/ Slavs, Copts? Oh my gosh...

4/ Defending in their forts not the frontiers of "Arabia", (there is no "Arabia" ...) but Persia frontier from north to south(especially against the ARABS of Persia...)
Hegra in the peninsula (Madāʾin Ṣāliḥ) is controlled by the Romans in 350 (coins MARC!).

5/ Arabs known as merchants, etc. Above all as soldiers for the Romans as well and were employed as tax collectors.

6/ "Quraysh" asks the Romans for arms? "Quraysh" ?

7/ "Badr" north of Petra? Moreover, is there a "Badr" battle? I do not think so... as there is no Zem Zem as well (!!!)

8/ "I'm sure that the Romans encouraged..." I'm sure of nothing, I was not there. I'm a historian...

9/"Uhud" my dear gosh...

10/ "Medina"...

11/ "Quraysh"in Petra?

12/ "Trench" battle?

13/"Muslims "? What Muslims ?

14/ "Comet, sky"...

15/ Do I need to say more ? (yawn...)

Gibson's explication shows us that he is a great believer...even with his Petra stuff...
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Reply #7084 - June 27, 2019, 07:47 PM

Gibson:

Yes, he is a total believer.
It is his depiction of the general political situation I thought could make sense, but you say it doesn't: noted.
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Reply #7085 - June 28, 2019, 01:18 PM

hi mundi ...
Quote from: mundi on June 27, 2019, 07:47 PM
Gibson:

Yes, he is a total believer.
It is his depiction of the general political situation I thought could make sense, but you say it doesn't: noted.

total believer.... total Automaton..... SENSE & COMMON SENSE...

So Gibson believes in what? dear mundi.,

Mecca is Petra....Petra is Mecca
and it is in the center of unverse??

well on that note let me read again that little booklet of Thomas Paine.. Common Sense: Addressed to the Inhabitants of ~~America~~ NORTH AMERICA"..

I guess Gibson lives in North America.... NOT in America ., So i added that word "North" to that wonderful booklet.. Damn that booklet is written in 1792... some 228 years ago...

with best wishes
yeezevee

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #7086 - June 28, 2019, 01:26 PM

Ooops I missed this....
Quote from: mundi on June 27, 2019, 10:04 AM
Yeez,

1. No doubt you can make a video debunking Gibson or whoever.
2. So what should we do? ~~Give up~~ trying to understand?
3.Or when you make your video, we can post that one too and discuss it...

well mundi....i am not good in making movies or videos.., moreover i am so ugly looking guy with a hoarse voice no one will watch it., but i am willing to write/question/inquire/change.. whatever...

BUT.. BUT..PLEASE DO NOT GIVE UP... on the way let me read these today's news links on Quran

Quote
Incorrect translation of holy verse in textbook angers PHC

The bench of Justice Qaiser Rasheed and Justice Abdul Shakoor Khan observed that the translation given in the textbook for 9th and 10th grade was tantamount to tarnishing Islamic history and appeared to be part of any agenda to misguide students.

Advocate Akbar Yousaf appeared along with other lawyers and contended that in the controversial translation of a verse related to the collection of bounties during war by Muslims at the time of Holy Prophet (PBUH) had been termed as “loot and plunder”, which was distortion of Islamic history...

Hmm., ........... BOOTY.... BOUNTY Vs LOOT & PLUNDER... that is the problem in 21st century

Quote
Beauty of the Quran by dr. Nikhat Sattar

............In the galaxies, the Quran mentions seven skies, each with its own earth and the lowest sky has been graced with “lamps”: the sun, moon and stars. Each is set in its orbit and revolves within it according to a set of principles. While almost all surahs depict the beauty of God’s creation, it is perhaps Surah Rahman that provides a magnificent picture of the favours of the Most Merciful.

Immersing oneself in Quranic verses brings a sense of peace and tranquillity.

According to a hadith, “God is beautiful and loves beauty” (Al-Mujam Al Ausat, 6902). As per the contemporary scholar Khaled Abu El Fadl, what is a temporary sign of God’s beauty shall perish, but His perennial beauty is eternal (Quran 55:26-27).

What can be a more beautiful manifestation of God’s beauty than the book, revealed to the Prophet (PBUH) to show the people of Makkah and to others the path to beauty, ie the path to God? A miracle in itself, it is beauty encapsulated in the highest of books, revealed to God’s beloved Prophet...

dr. Nikhat Sattar is wonderful person and a great lady.... but.... but she and many like her are/were UNABLE SOLVE the mystery of Quran... on one side Quranic verses brings a sense of peace and tranquility. and other side it brings BOOTY.... BOUNTY Vs LOOT & PLUNDER..

well that is life in faiths and inside the heads of faith heads

yeezevee

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #7087 - July 01, 2019, 12:16 PM

So I am casually reading that German born Iranian famous guy book .. "God Is Beautiful: The Aesthetic Experience of the Quran" ... casually looking in to the reviews of that book ., I came across Gabriel Said Reynolds., A reviewer of that book says in that Amazon jungle this

Quote
..........The melodious recitation of the Quran is a fundamental aesthetic experience for Muslims, and the start of a compelling journey of ideas. In this important new book, the prominent German writer and Islamic scholar Navid Kermani considers the manner in which the Quran has been perceived, apprehended and experienced by its recipients from the time of the Prophet to the present day.

Drawing on a wide range of Muslim sources, from historians, theologians and philosophers to mystics and literary scholars, Kermani provides a close reading of the nature of this powerful text. He proceeds to analyze ancient and modern testimonies about the impact of Quranic language from a variety of angles. Although people have always reflected on the reception of texts, images and sounds that they find beautiful or moving, Kermani explains that Islam provides a particularly striking example of the close correlation, grounded in a common origin, between art and religion, revelation and poetry, and religious and aesthetic experience.

This major new book will enhance the dialogue between Islam and the West and will appeal to students and scholars of Islam and comparative religion, as well as to a wider readership interested in Islam and the Quran.........

and that is what Gabriel Reynolds says on that book ., well i don't care about what " Navid Kermani" wrote in that book and such books can be written in any faith by any faith head such as

"God Is Beautiful: The Aesthetic Experience of the Quran" ..
"God Is Beautiful: The Aesthetic Experience of the new testament" ..
"God Is Beautiful: The Aesthetic Experience of the old testament" ..
"God Is Beautiful: The Aesthetic Experience of the old Buddhist literature ..
"God Is Beautiful: The Aesthetic Experience of the old Zoroastrianism literature ..

or on any other god other faiths that you see below here

and "God Is Beautiful: The Aesthetic Experience of the old RELIGIOUS literature " .. little literature books can be written from every religion/faith that you see in this wiki link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_text where you can see some 1000 faith books from different faiths...

but i am more interested in his wife Katajun Amirpur 's work

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #7088 - July 01, 2019, 12:55 PM

This is how the Koran came to be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zy6Wo4IWg-Q

... that makes sense.. singing songs makes sense...

Kulturzeit contribution with Christoph Luxenberg, Navid Kermani Koran Islam

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7GELbhm8R4

To conceal the truth or hide the facts on the origins of a faith is not a solution.

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- Altara
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Reply #7089 - July 02, 2019, 03:12 PM

Inferring the Phonetics of Quranic Arabic from
the Quranic Consonantal Text
Marijn van Putten

Abstract
This paper examines the phonetics of Quranic Arabic as they can be deduced from the Quranic Consonantal Text. It first examines the phonetic qualities of the inter dentals, the ḍād, the ǧīm and the emphatic consonants. Secondly, it is shown that Quranic rhyme makes a distinction between Maǧhūr and Mahmūs consonants. Finally, some notes on the pronunciation of the feminine ending and the assimilation of the definite article are provided.

https://www.academia.edu/39727853/Inferring_the_Phonetics_of_Quranic_Arabic_from_the_Quranic_Consonantal_Text
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Reply #7090 - July 06, 2019, 06:55 PM

Hi there!
Today Sweden beat England in the bronze final in FIFA WC for women so the evening might be spoiled for you anyway. So then you might watch this video where Jay Smith, whom not all here in this forum is a fan of, actually on the spot 1:29:46 mention the name of an amateur: ME. I kind of irritated him by trying to quote MVP and his claim that there is basically only one Quran (except the underlying text in the Sanaa manuscript).
So if your Saturday night is anyway spoiled, then you could watch Jay Smith and Al Fadi. Do they have some points when it comes to questioning the traditional Muslim way of describing how the Quran was made? Do any academics take these traditions serious?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJQdOjsHPx4
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Reply #7091 - July 07, 2019, 09:44 AM

It must now have become abundantly clear how little assistance is to be hoped for from the Muslim accounts of the history of the collection of the Qurʾān texts. The reports are a mass of confusions, contradictions and inconsistencies. By their nature, they represent the product of a lengthy process of evolution, accretion and “improvement”. They were framed in response to a wide variety of progressive needs.[...]The Muslim sources are thus quite clear that Abū Bakr and ʿUmar were responsible of for the first collection of the Qurʾān texts following the death of the Prophet. Discordant voices were nonetheless heard, ‘Abū Bakr died and the Qurʾān had not been collected; ʿUmar was killed and the Qurʾān had not been collected.’ The existence of such reports makes it clear that the Muslims were confused. The earliest stage of the traditions on the collection of the Qurʾān did consist in incompatible attributions of the first collection to Abū Bakr, to Umar, to ʿUthman.

J. Burton, The collection of the Qur'ān, Cambridge University Press, 1977, p.225-240.
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Reply #7092 - July 07, 2019, 07:13 PM

Congrats Bjorn for getting into Smith's program!

I admit I didnt watch the complete video... I watched some parts. That the tradition is contradictory and at most contains a truthlet here and there is imo generally accepted.

Is there 1 Quran? Depends what one means by "Quran". We know about all the variants accepted and described by the tradition (thousands). A systematic review of the archetype on variants outside of the tradition hasn't been done yet apparently. That would be interesting too.

I think carbon-dating in this discussion is important. I think in this discussion it is important to check the oldest manuscripts first on variations compared to Cairo 1924. It is those variations that can be interesting. A scribal error of an intermediate text being corrected back to the archetype is much less interesting here.
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Reply #7093 - July 08, 2019, 03:23 AM

Quote from: Altara on July 07, 2019, 09:44 AM
..............................

J. Burton, The collection of the Qur'ān, Cambridge University Press, 1977, p.225-240.

oh my goodness...that book is over 40 year old., that is a good book to read dear Altara.. well here is the pdf file of it..

The Collection of the Qur'an ....by John Burton

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #7094 - July 08, 2019, 07:06 AM

MVP obviously doesn't like Daniel Brubaker`s and Jay Smith`s work. He retweeted this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=fJYQaX5CntQ

https://twitter.com/Farid_0v/status/1147658985107013632
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Reply #7095 - July 08, 2019, 07:08 AM

Farid has a point. Focussing on mistakes/corrections/variations in intermediate manuscripts that were not original to the archetype or were not continued doesn't prove a lot...

But I haven't read Brubaker's work.I don't know if his work is represented honestly by Farid.
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Reply #7096 - July 08, 2019, 07:38 AM

Quote from: yeezevee on July 08, 2019, 03:23 AM
oh my goodness...that book is over 40 year old., that is a good book to read dear Altara.. well here is the pdf file of it..

The Collection of the Qur'an ....by John Burton

Burton is a must read.
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Reply #7097 - July 08, 2019, 07:53 AM

Quote from: mundi on July 08, 2019, 07:08 AM
Farid has a point. Focussing on mistakes/corrections/variations in intermediate manuscripts that were not original to the archetype or were not continued doesn't prove a lot...

But I haven't read Brubaker's work.I don't know if his work is represented honestly by Farid.

MVP can say what he want, a word is a word.
Quote from: Asbjoern1958 on July 08, 2019, 07:06 AM
MVP obviously doesn't like Daniel Brubaker`s and Jay Smith`s work. He retweeted this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=fJYQaX5CntQ

https://twitter.com/Farid_0v/status/1147658985107013632

Posting a Jay Smith rebuttal video on twitter is not a scholarly work.
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Reply #7098 - July 08, 2019, 02:40 PM

Altara,

Please address the point I am trying to make. A lot of these corrections are on intermediate exemplars and don't get propagated. Older ones don't have it. Younger ones neither So what is the relevance of these intermediate corrections?

I don't know if Brubaker's corrections are of this order or are they really corrections of the archetype that then got propagated and ended up in the Cairo 1924?
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Reply #7099 - July 09, 2019, 12:20 AM

Quote
Quote from: mundi on July 08, 2019, 02:40 PM
..................... A lot of these corrections are on intermediate exemplars and don't get propagated. Older ones don't have it. Younger ones neither So what is the relevance of these intermediate corrections?

I don't know if Brubaker's corrections are of this order or are they really corrections of the archetype that then got propagated and ended up in the Cairo 1924?

Quote from: mundi on July 08, 2019, 07:08 AM
Farid has a point. Focussing on mistakes/corrections/variations in intermediate manuscripts that were not original to the archetype or were not continued doesn't prove a lot...

.............I haven't read Brubaker's work..................

well why not read about Dr. Daniel Brubaker and read/watch him what he says on correction dear mundi .....

Quote
https://iqsaweb.wordpress.com/tag/daniel-brubaker/

IQSA also received two new lifetime members: Dr. Daniel Brubaker and Sharif Randhawa. Daniel Brubaker (pictured on the right) is primarily a scholar of Qur’an manuscripts of the 7th to 10th centuries. He defended his doctoral dissertation titled “Intentional Changes in the Quran Manuscripts” and was awarded his PhD at Rice University in Houston in 2014. Since then he’s continued his work researching corrections in early Qurans and to date Dr. Brubaker has analyzed approximately 10,000 early Quranic manuscripts or manuscript folios in institutions and libraries throughout Europe and the Middle East and elsewhere, Doha, Kuwait, Tashkent.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gjB-hMZXBc

well let us read read other side.....

A Critical Analysis: Jay Smith’s Claims About the Qur’an by Br. Ijaz Ahmad Trinidad & Tobago West Indies[/font][/u][/b]

’ 1 and the Origins of the Behnam Sadeghi and Mohsen Goudarzi 1., Stanford University / Harvard University

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #7100 - July 11, 2019, 04:17 PM

Quote from: Altara on July 08, 2019, 07:53 AM

Posting a Jay Smith rebuttal video on twitter is not a scholarly work.

I go further on that ., any Academic historian who teaches in universities and who debates and discusses .....the myths..... mythology... religions... religious Scriptures...... as true history of human cultures ((NOT STORIES OF WRITERS OF THEIR TIMES)) on twitter is an idiot with a degree... sorry in insult many folks..

my goodness .. https://www.dreamgrow.com/top-15-most-popular-social-networking-sites/ Human life is dead .. it is all web life and web lies...

anyways dear Altara I probably asked you this question and you may have answered me.. but this forum is also like rewinding tape to watch a particular scene .. which is always difficult to search... so this question again.

On this Earliest Quranic manuscripts..., ......... Tübingen fragment., Kufic manuscripts., Topkapi manuscript., Samarkand Kufic Quran........... or others

I would greatly appreciate any links of publications from Academic Quran historians from you and your input on those manuscripts with reference to present 114 chapter book. In fact this folder is exploding and hard to search back., So may be a new independent folder only on that subject wold be very useful to investigate and understand the origins of Quran ..

with best wishes
yeezevee

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #7101 - July 12, 2019, 03:17 AM

1. The Qur'anic Manuscripts.pdf

2. Oldest manuscripts of Holy Quran identical to modern day manuscripts http://dunyanews.tv 2015

3 Magnificent Quran Various Manuscripts.pdf

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #7102 - July 13, 2019, 01:04 PM

Quote
Quote from: Asbjoern1958 on July 08, 2019, 07:06 AM
..............jay Smith`s work............................

.....

Quote from: Altara on July 08, 2019, 07:53 AM
MVP can say what he want, a word is a word.
Posting a Jay Smith rebuttal video on twitter is not a scholarly work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMJRsd8SrhU

well certainly Question some aspects of Jay Smith tube " Examining the Newest Historical Research on Islam and the Earliest Quranic Manuscripts - "

and i would argue MVP to go at that video of Jay Smith...

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #7103 - July 13, 2019, 02:17 PM

MVP is a linguist. He need a context to work. The narrative offers it to him. He is then driven by him, like all Muslims.
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Reply #7104 - July 13, 2019, 02:48 PM

Quote from: Altara on July 13, 2019, 02:17 PM
MVP is a linguist. He need a context to work. The narrative offers it to him. He is then driven by him, like all Muslims.

Then he should talk ONLY about Arabic language., such as Its origins and the words/stories that came in to Arabic language or words/stories that moved out of Arabic in to other languages /other cultures ... He is fool to air his views on origins of Islam and history Islam and Quran...

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #7105 - July 13, 2019, 04:50 PM

Quote
Then he should talk ONLY about Arabic language., He is fool to air his views on origins of Islam and history Islam and Quran..

He cannot as this language is the one of the Quranic corpus.
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Reply #7106 - July 13, 2019, 05:06 PM

Quote from: Altara on July 13, 2019, 04:50 PM
~~He cannot~~ as this language is the one of the Quranic corpus.

No he can.,, he is NOT using his brain and jumping on to the Islam band wagon to save his job in Arabic language .. funds for it is coming from.......

but I say Arabic language was there much before the birth of Islam .. before the birth of Quran.. ., and in fact that is what people like him should investigate . if he does not to know what to do in Arabic language .. then he should start with wiki
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varieties_of_Arabic for example......... major regional differences of Ancient and medieval Arabic language and go bit higher to some blogs such as https://etoninstitute.com/blog/language/different-arabic-dialects

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #7107 - July 15, 2019, 09:32 AM

Quote
but I say Arabic language was there much before the birth of Islam .. before the birth of Quran..

Not in a literary form. Inscriptions are not sufficient to study it.The Quranic rasm is the first one that can be.
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Reply #7108 - July 15, 2019, 02:20 PM

Quote from: Altara on July 15, 2019, 09:32 AM
Not in a literary form. Inscriptions are not sufficient to study it.

I fully agree with Inscriptions on rocks and /or pottery are not sufficient to study it as religious literature but I would disagree that part of the bible was NOT in Arabic literary form before or during Quran became literary form and or became ...so called Quranic rasm..

Quote
The Quranic rasm is the first one that can be.

If i understand that word "Quranic rasm" correctly .. is it not just an Arabic text without those those dots and dashes ? Such Arabic text of bible stories must have been there before so-called Quran rasam publication(that folks see in those Sana manuscripts)., These Quran rasam verses or bible rasam verses (whatevr we call) that we see in many Quran verses must have been floating around in those northern Arabian peninsula monasteries.,

So I question that the "Quranic rasm is the first one that can be". dear Altara.... unless you remove all bible rasam verses...that you see in Quran...

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #7109 - July 15, 2019, 02:52 PM

1. The Arabic Versions of the Bible, Reflections on Their History and Significance

2. Review of the Arabic Text of MT. SINAI ARABIC CODEX 151

3. The identity and witness of Arab pre-Islamic Arab Christianity: The Arabic language and the Bible

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Topic: Qur'anic studies today

yeezevee

Reply #7080 - June 27, 2019, 09:51 AM

mundi

Reply #7081 - June 27, 2019, 10:04 AM

Altara

Reply #7082 - June 27, 2019, 01:55 PM

Altara

Reply #7083 - June 27, 2019, 05:51 PM

mundi

Reply #7084 - June 27, 2019, 07:47 PM

yeezevee

Reply #7085 - June 28, 2019, 01:18 PM

yeezevee

Reply #7086 - June 28, 2019, 01:26 PM

yeezevee

Reply #7087 - July 01, 2019, 12:16 PM

yeezevee

Reply #7088 - July 01, 2019, 12:55 PM

Altara

Reply #7089 - July 02, 2019, 03:12 PM

Asbjoern1958

Reply #7090 - July 06, 2019, 06:55 PM

Altara

Reply #7091 - July 07, 2019, 09:44 AM

mundi

Reply #7092 - July 07, 2019, 07:13 PM

yeezevee

Reply #7093 - July 08, 2019, 03:23 AM

Asbjoern1958

Reply #7094 - July 08, 2019, 07:06 AM

mundi

Reply #7095 - July 08, 2019, 07:08 AM

Altara

Reply #7096 - July 08, 2019, 07:38 AM

Altara

Reply #7097 - July 08, 2019, 07:53 AM

mundi

Reply #7098 - July 08, 2019, 02:40 PM

yeezevee

Reply #7099 - July 09, 2019, 12:20 AM

yeezevee

Reply #7100 - July 11, 2019, 04:17 PM

yeezevee

Reply #7101 - July 12, 2019, 03:17 AM

yeezevee

Reply #7102 - July 13, 2019, 01:04 PM

Altara

Reply #7103 - July 13, 2019, 02:17 PM

yeezevee

Reply #7104 - July 13, 2019, 02:48 PM

Altara

Reply #7105 - July 13, 2019, 04:50 PM

yeezevee

Reply #7106 - July 13, 2019, 05:06 PM

Altara

Reply #7107 - July 15, 2019, 09:32 AM

yeezevee

Reply #7108 - July 15, 2019, 02:20 PM

yeezevee

Reply #7109 - July 15, 2019, 02:52 PM

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