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Reply #8010 - October 19, 2019, 03:40 PM

Quote from: Altara on October 19, 2019, 03:29 PM
..............Sophronios (632-637) .................

Look at that., no one mentioned that name in early Islamic publications w.r.t early Islamic history ., that guy was right in the middle.,

you are relic dear Altara., there is something wrong with you...

write..write ..write a publication.. a review ....ASAP ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgTpd4xXUQs

CHURCH OF THE HOLY SEPULCHRE ...CHURCH OF THE HOLY SEPULCHRE... great video

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Reply #8011 - October 19, 2019, 04:43 PM

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there was no real "prophet" with them.

prophet, general, warlord... what is the difference?
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Reply #8012 - October 19, 2019, 05:46 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on October 19, 2019, 02:44 PM
All right .. posing hypothesis on a topic .. so she initiated an hypothesis along with dr. Cook.,

Is that what your point is ?? for that she should be called as believer ? and you appears to be using it as derogatory term very regularly

Education is repetition :

Believer to the traditional narrative. Narrative which is mandatory to start to believe that the Quran is the word of God, giving to "Muhammad". Where? In Mecca/Zem zem, i.e., to be Muslim.
To be Muslim you are obliged to believe to the narrative as historical.

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YOU ARE VERY WRONG saying she fled to Princeton., why would you say that??

Because it was no more possible to work in UK for her. Posing an hypothese (Hagarism and Meccan trade) about Islam was scandal. Whereas she even did not believe in it, as evidenced by her later articles.She fled to Princeton.
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what do you mean by "insupportable" ?? it is hypothese ....it is HYPO-THESIS ., it is an idea to be explored ., it is supposed to be investigated., and to be proved whether it is right or wrong . You know that ., that is how modern scholarship works in every field of investigation.

Science does not work like that Yeez. There are clans, hate, etc.

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well., no one becomes popular just by raising an hypothesis .,

In the topic of Islam, yes.

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So there must be something in that booklet .. whether you call it as hypothesis or convulsed ..plain..simple concept .,

WHAT IS IT??

The hypothese that the narrative was partly wrong. And as the narrative is a belief mandatory to be Muslim, it mean call into question the Islamic religion.

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Besides, Crone is wrong, like all the scholarship which, like her, identifies "the prophet has appeared coming with the Saracens, and is proclaiming the advent of the anointed one" to Muhammad.

There is no "advent of the anointed one" announcement in the Quran.
Ok., you mean to say ....she was wrong w.r.t Muhammad and she was wrong w.r.t appearance of new prophet .. and she was wrong in her scholarship and identifying "the prophet has appeared coming with the Saracens, and is proclaiming the advent of the anointed one" to Muhammad.

I mean to say that. In doing so, she does not start again. She keep the narrative : Muammad, Kaba, Zem zem. With this, it is impossible to find something. She found then nothing and was rather lost when she dealt with the core text of the Quran (about the pagans notably)..
She was dressed as a revisionist whereas she was not! And this "dress" obliged her to flee. It's quite ironic...
Am I (at last!) clear?

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well then IT IS GOOD THING FOR PEOPLE LIKE YOU AND OTHERS ., you have something original to write , to explore, to explain on the history of Islam ., one person can not do everything ..

I never said (TM) she had to do everything. I just says that she start nothing as she still accept "Muhammad" and the rest. And I consider that in accepting "Muhammad" and the rest." she start again nothing. That is all
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Reply #8013 - October 19, 2019, 05:49 PM

Altara,

Can you direct us to the reading of Sophronius' texts? Thanks
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Reply #8014 - October 19, 2019, 06:28 PM

Nope. But I think you can find articles in academia.
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Reply #8015 - October 19, 2019, 09:14 PM

Quote from: zeca on October 19, 2019, 11:11 AM
Eleonore Cellard - Review of Qur’anic Research (Vol. 5, no.9), Hilali, A. The Sanaa palimpsest

https://www.academia.edu/40665225/RQR_Review_of_Qur_anic_Research_Vol._5_no.9_Hilali_A._The_Sanaa_palimpsest

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The hypotheses of Hilali and Sadeghi and Goudarzi (2012) converge on one point: because the ʿUthmānic text of the Qurʾān was transmitted with great fidelity after its canonization in the mid-
seventh century CE, there can be no ʿUthmānic codex with many variants in the rasm after that time. According to Sadeghi, the scriptio inferior of the palimpsest —which differs from the ʿUthmānic text in many ways— should be related to another text type from a Companion of the Prophet.

Surely not a "Companion of the Prophet". May be to a "Companion" of Iron Man
If aliens come to Earth whereas there's no more humans alive and find Avengers movies, some of them will believe that they had existed...
They existed : in movies and comics...

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As for Hilali, she proposes to interpret this lower layer of text as traces of another milieu of production, distinct from the one where official manuscripts —or manuscripts consistent with the ʿUthmānic recension— were produced.

Well... this time no "Companion"...It could be related to anything else as well.
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There is actually another hypothesis which has not been explored yet: that the scriptio inferior could be in fact an ʿUthmānic codex, produced in a milieu where the textual transmission was more fluid, and admitting more variants.

Interesting.

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Very little evidence of this milieu has reached us but that does not mean that it never existed; the scriptio inferior reached us precisely because it was hidden behind the canonical text.

And was totally forgotten...

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Perhaps other evidence has been simply destroyed by later readers.

Possible.

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At any rate, traces of this milieu seem to have survived in other manuscripts from Ṣanʿāʾ .

Which ones?

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The major issue that needs to be resolved to improve our understanding of the palimpsest would be to define what is an ʿUthmānic text type and what is not.

It's the trap. "ʿUthmānic text type" is an invented concept of the 9th c.
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Reply #8016 - October 19, 2019, 09:56 PM

Claude Gilliot and Pierre Larcher, « Language and style of the Qurʾān », Encyclopaedia of the Qur’ān [EQ], III, Leyde, Brill, 2003, p. 109-35 (G.3.82)
https://www.academia.edu/40664703/Claude_Gilliot_and_Pierre_Larcher_Language_and_style_of_the_Qurʾān_Encyclopaedia_of_the_Qur_ān_EQ_III_Leyde_Brill_2003_p._109-35_G.3.82_?fs=aw-931614167
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Reply #8017 - October 20, 2019, 08:53 AM

Sean W. Anthony – “Why Does the Qurʾān Need the Meccan Sanctuary? Response to Professor Gerald Hawting’s 2017 Presidential Address”, Journal of the International Qurʾanic Studies Association 3 (2018): 25–41.

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In this response to Prof. Hawting's Presidential Address, I offer my views on the centrality of the Meccan sanctuary to the message of the Qurʾān in the Meccan period, its subsequent salience in the Medinan period, and the evidence for its continued importance for the Muslims of the seventh century. Reverence for the Meccan sanctuary, I argue, was pivotal to the early community's self-understanding as a discrete community, both distinct from the “People of the Book” (ahl al-kitāb) and as a successor community with a shared biblical lineage. I contend, moreover, that reverence for a sanctuary in Mecca and its attendant rites was regarded as a touchstone feature of the religiosity of the newly hegemonic conquerors from Arabia by the earliest contemporary observers of the conquests and their aftermath.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.5913/jiqsa.3.2018.a002
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Reply #8018 - October 20, 2019, 09:46 AM

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I offer my views on the centrality of the Meccan sanctuary to the message of the Qurʾān in the Meccan period,

What is the "Meccan period"? What does that mean?
If it is existed, why it is not written down in ancient MS?
Anthony has no response to this and believe the narrative as historical whereas he got no sources to validate any historical affirmation of the narrative.

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its subsequent salience in the Medinan period

Idem.

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and the evidence for its continued importance for the Muslims of the seventh century

Do Muʿawiya time attest a "continued importance" of something?
Everybody know the response.
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Reverence for the Meccan sanctuary, I argue, was pivotal to the early community's self-understanding as a discrete community,

Poems sung in mosque (cf. Tannous) attests that these people does not come from Mecca.

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both distinct from the “People of the Book” (ahl al-kitāb) and as a successor community with a shared biblical lineage.

All Arabs were in Biblical milieu since ages and the Quranic texts attests of that rationally.If not, nobody would have understood what was the texts about.

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I contend, moreover, that reverence for a sanctuary in Mecca and its attendant rites was regarded as a touchstone feature of the religiosity of the newly hegemonic conquerors from Arabia

It is inexact. Muʿawiya time attests of none of what will be decided (pilgrimage, etc) is draws from the Quranic texts later.
Muʿawiya is not aware that he is the son of "Abu Sufyan", enemy of the Prophet of Islam who has lived in a great city of commerce in the barren desert of the peninsula. Anthony can say what he wants, nothing come attesting this. All what the Arabs will do is drawn from Quranic texts and not from personal experience of them, or their fathers.
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by the earliest contemporary observers of the conquests and their aftermath.

The earliest contemporary observers did not know Mecca/Kaba/Medina/Zem zem. They attest nothing of this. What they attests is people which draws from texts that they have a sanctuary somewhere they never attests that this cult is organized like the 9th c. narrative will affirm it is.(the Dome of Abraham). Kaba is a Dome?
Nope it's a Kube.
They never attests that these people come from a precise place in the peninsula which would be what will say the 9th c. narrative.
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Reply #8019 - October 20, 2019, 10:28 AM

Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/GabrielSaidR/status/1185199843662352385
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Most of the Qur'an (whether 1st or 3rd person speech) is articulated in divine speech but 19:64 seems to have the angels speaking ("we do not descend except"). Translators sometimes add a little extra to avoid this conclusion.

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Reply #8020 - October 20, 2019, 11:16 AM

Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/GabrielSaidR/status/1184880045514526720
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Just read a manuscript dealing with Islamic/Arab conquests & noted that many early Christian sources speak of violence but none (to my knowledge) of forced conversion, s-t that suggests the conquests were not for the propagation of a religion but for other motives.
@holland_tom

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Reply #8021 - October 20, 2019, 12:07 PM

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that suggests the conquests were not for the propagation of a religion but for other motives.

Reynolds has copied me!
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Reply #8022 - October 20, 2019, 12:08 PM

Quote from: zeca on October 20, 2019, 10:28 AM
Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/GabrielSaidR/status/1185199843662352385
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Reply #8023 - October 20, 2019, 12:32 PM

2012 -Cuypers on Wansbrough : L’ANALYSE RHETORIQUE
FACE A LA CRITIQUE HISTORIQUE DE J. WANSBROUGH ET DE G. LÜLING.
L’exemple de la sourate 96 (2012-Segovia-Cuypers-Lourié--IMP-The Coming of the Comforter)

RHETORICAL ANALYSIS IN THE FACE OF HISTORICAL CRITICISM BY J. WANSBROUGH AND G. LÜLING. The example of Sura 96
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He [WANSBROUGH ] even goes so far as to dissociate the Koran from the person of Muhammad, considering the Koran and the other early writings of the tradition Islamic (hadiths, Sīra) as mythical reconstructions developed in and by an anti-trinitarian sectarian environment, foreign to Arabia, and probably located in Mesopotamia. For him, the The Koran is the result of a long organic development of collections of prophetic logia, originally independent, taking finally a canonical form in which these logias are juxtaposed and connected by certain typical processes, such as introductory (qul, ayuhā) or concluding formulas (theological clauses).
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Reply #8024 - October 20, 2019, 12:48 PM

Quote from: Altara on October 20, 2019, 12:32 PM
2012-Segovia-Cuypers-Lourié--IMP-The Coming of the Comforter

pdf of the book here: http://www.almuslih.org/Library/Segovia,%20C;%20Lourié,%20B%20-%20The%20Coming%20of%20the%20Comforter.pdf

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Reply #8025 - October 20, 2019, 05:08 PM

An interesting article by Cuypers.

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Its starting point is the recognition of a text containing many repetitions, sudden semantic jumps, ellipses and inconsistencies. From this observation, Wansbrough, like all historical criticism before and after him, pulls it conclusion that these are all indications of the fragmented origin of the text, a text that criticism has precisely the role of deconstructing into its original fragments.For Wansbrough, the Koran is not a work written in its canonical form from the outset:
"The structure itself of Muslim Scripture lends little support to the theory of a deliberate edition ".
The symmetrical swings that characterize Koranic pericopes and their repetitive style, According to him, they betray a long oral origin and transmission. Nevertheless, he admits that: "emergence of the canon itself, however, represented application of considerable literary technique. Not the least of the problems provoked by its final form is the erratic distribution of obviously related pericopes ».
We will retain this paradox: while acknowledging the disordered nature of the text and its "absence of logical structure", Wansbrough nevertheless admits clear relationships between pericopes.he concludes that these logias had a Judeo-Christian sectarian origin, the development of which must have taken time, hence his conception of a very late canonical text (muṣḥaf), dating from the end of the 2nd century of the Hegira.

Cuypers has the merit of explaining clearly Wansbrough and to raise that what he says is paradoxical but Wansbrough is explaining that his affirmation of the late canonical text (2nd century of the Hegira.) is that very fact : "emergence of the canon itself, however, represented application of considerable literary technique."
The only issue is that ancient MS shows that the canonical text is far more ancient.
Therefore emergence of the canon itself, however, represented application of considerable literary technique is earlier and made by monks (Dye theory as he does not believe to the Judeo-Christian sectarian origin) or genuine (Cuypers theory).
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Reply #8026 - October 20, 2019, 11:41 PM

Quote from: mundi on October 19, 2019, 05:49 PM
Altara,

Can you direct us to the reading of Sophronius' texts? Thanks

https://archive.org/details/SeeingIslamAsOthersSawItASurveyAndEvaluationOfChristianJewishAndZoroastrianWritingsOnEarlyIslam/page/n7

Page 67 and after
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Reply #8027 - October 20, 2019, 11:44 PM

Quote from: Altara on October 20, 2019, 12:32 PM
He [WANSBROUGH ] even goes so far as to dissociate the Koran from the person of Muhammad, considering the Koran and the other early writings of the tradition Islamic (hadiths, Sīra) as mythical reconstructions developed in and by an anti-trinitarian sectarian environment, foreign to Arabia, and probably located in Mesopotamia. For him, the The Koran is the result of a long organic development of collections of prophetic logia, originally independent, taking finally a canonical form in which these logias are juxtaposed and connected by certain typical processes, such as introductory (qul, ayuhā) or concluding formulas (theological clauses).

He is so right but for the starting point in time that was not the 7th century.
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Reply #8028 - October 21, 2019, 10:22 AM

The only issue is that ancient MS' shows that the canonical text is more ancient than the 9th c.
WANSBROUGH is (therefore) wrong.
Therefore "emergence of the canon itself, however, represented application of considerable literary technique" is earlier than what WANSBROUGH says. For Dye it was made by monks after the conquest from prophetical logia(640-660 (?)) as he does not believe to the Judeo-Christian sectarian origin. In the same way described by WANSBROUGH (pericopes or fragments originally independent, collected in a more or less clumsy way in the final form of a book) Cuypers theory is:

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To limit ourselves here to the rhetorical analysis, it starts from the same observation described above (fragmentation of the text, its apparent disorder, etc.), but rather than to conclude that there are pericopes or fragments originally independent, collected in a more or less clumsy way in the final form of the Book, it makes a reverse hypothesis: under this apparent disorder [ of the Quranic texts] , is it not necessary to discern a certain order, logic, deliberate composition (" a deliberate edition")? But which ones? And how to spot them? To these questions, biblical exegesis, faced with the same problem in some texts of the Bible, responded with the gradual discovery, from of the mid-18th century, the rules of Semitic rhetoric, very different from the Greek-Latin rhetoric we inherited.

There you have the two revisionist theories in the field about the composition of the Quranic texts. It has to be noted that Cuypers does not participate to the "Coran of the Historians" (3000 pages) published this Fall (in French). And edited by Dye.
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Reply #8029 - October 21, 2019, 10:58 AM

Cuypers article:

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We propose to analyze here a sura according to this type methodology,[his], and then compare the results with those of the obtained by the Wansbrough method. Unfortunately, the latter has never performed the exegesis of a complete sura. It is therefore not possible to directly compare the rhetorical analysis with what such an exegesis would have been like. Günter Lüling, another tenant of the historical criticism of the Koran, strongly reproached Wansbrough, as well as his "revisionist" followers, never to to have taken the trouble of a thorough exegesis of a full sura. The clearest common point of his method with that of Wansbrough is that both admit, at first, the fragmented and and logically incoherent of the Koranic text.
Lüling considers that Sura 96 gathers three fragments, without any connection between them: v. 1-5, which correspond to the traditional framework narrative (sabab al-nuzūl) of Muhammad's prophetic vocation, challenged by the angel Gabriel; the central part (v. 6-7), without any obvious relationship with those who frame it; v. 9-19, which correspond to the second traditional framework narrative of a pagan who wants to prevent the Prophet from performing his ritual prayer. By criticizing the traditional interpretation of certain terms (iqrā','alaq,' kallā, ruj' ā...), by modifying the vocalization and even the consonants of some others, and by omitting what he considers to be a gloss (see 16: "a lying, sinful toupee"), Lüling leads to a unified text that would be the original version, the Urtext of the canonical sura, and would be none other than a pre-Islamic Christian stanza hymn, centred on the theme of prayer. He sees in the last member of the hymn his summary or title: "Bow down (for prayer) and approach! "In addition, he underlines the extraordinary work of composition of the poem, woven from many correspondences of terms.
For Lüling, the 96 Sura would therefore not originally consist of three independent logias, but of a homogeneous text around the theme of prayer, which "has been reinterpreted by orthodox Islamic editorial work to become incoherent pieces" And it is to give meaning to these pieces that the two framework stories would then have been linked to the sura by the exegetical tradition of the commentators. Probably not wanting to delay the canonical writing of the Koran as much as Wansbrough and the "revisionists" did, Lüling situates the origin of the sura's source hymn at least a century before Muhammad's prophetic activity, so that the evolution of the transmission of the hymn can be rejected before the coming of Islam. And on the other hand, there is no need, according to him, to situate the beginnings of Islam in Mesopotamia, because there were Arab Christians in Central Arabia.
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Reply #8030 - October 21, 2019, 04:27 PM

Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/NViermann/status/1186273007062401026
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Incorporated into the Eastern walls of Jerusalem’s temple mount, there’s this rather enigmatic building, the so-called Golden Gate. Its interpretation is crucial for understanding the tumultuous events evolving in the early 7thc.

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Reply #8031 - October 21, 2019, 04:38 PM

New translation of Doctrina Jacobi: http://andrewjacobs.org/translations/doctrina.html

From here: http://andrewjacobs.org/

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Reply #8032 - October 21, 2019, 05:29 PM

This source have to be heavily criticized.
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Reply #8033 - October 22, 2019, 07:46 AM

Quote
Quote from: zeca on October 21, 2019, 04:38 PM
New translation of Doctrina Jacobi: http://andrewjacobs.org/translations/doctrina.html

From here: http://andrewjacobs.org/

Quote from: Altara on October 21, 2019, 05:29 PM
This source have to be heavily criticized.

which one dear Altara? you mean translation((Translation by Andrew S. Jacobs)?? or the original source "Doctrina of Jacobi"??

Muḥammad, the Keys to Paradise, and the Doctrina Iacobi: A Late Antique Puzzle* by Sean Anthony

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #8034 - October 22, 2019, 08:12 AM

Interesting critiques of those who criticize Islam and Prophet Muhammad..

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Inherited Prejudices: Modern orientalists and their delusions regarding the Qur'an by Mohamad Nasrin Nasir ., Universiti Kebangsaan Malaysia

Orientalists and the Holy Qur’an: Translation or Distortion by Rana Qadri

Neo-orientalism? A critical appraisal of changing Western perspectives : Bernard Lewis, John Esposito and Gilles Kepel 2009., Ph.D. thesis by Mohammad Samiei., School of Social Sciences, Humanities and Languages ., a PhD thesis awarded by the University of Westminster.London

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim

Reply #8035 - October 22, 2019, 08:39 AM

Hmm... that word ............... "canonical text".......... in Altara post

Quote from: Altara on October 21, 2019, 10:22 AM

The only issue is that ancient MS' shows that the canonical texts is more ancient than the 9th c.
~~WANSBROUGH is (therefore) wrong.~~

Therefore  "emergence of the canon itself, however, represented application of considerable literary technique"  is earlier than what WANSBROUGH  says. For Dye  it was made by monks after the conquest from prophetical logia(640-660 (?)) as he does not believe to the Judeo-Christian sectarian origin. In the same way described by WANSBROUGH  (pericopes or fragments originally independent, collected in a more or less clumsy way in the final form of a book) Cuypers theory is: 

There you have the two revisionist theories in the field about the composition of the Quranic texts. It has to be noted that Cuypers does not participate to the "Coran of the Historians" (3000 pages) published this Fall (in French). And edited by Dye. ;)

should be "canonical textS"... well the present book Quran is NOT just "canonical textS that we see in Quran .,

so... so WANSBROUGH technically is (therefore) NOT wrong,,, Cheesy

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything

I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim

Qur'anic studies today

Reply #8036 - October 22, 2019, 08:50 AM

Hu! what? let me hide irrelevant part of Altara post on dr, Patrica crone and highlight where he is wrong

Quote from: Altara on October 19, 2019, 05:46 PM

Education is repetition :

Believer to the traditional narrative. Narrative which is mandatory to start to believe that the Quran is the word of God, giving to "Muhammad". Where? In Mecca/Zem zem, i.e., to be Muslim.
To be Muslim you are obliged to believe to the narrative as historical.

Because it was no more possible to work in UK for her. Posing an hypothese (Hagarism and Meccan trade) about Islam was scandal. Whereas she even did not believe in it, as evidenced by her later articles.

She fled to Princeton.

Science does not work like that Yeez. There are clans, hate, etc. 

In the topic of Islam, yes.

The hypothese that the narrative was partly wrong. And as the narrative is a belief mandatory to be Muslim, it mean call into question the Islamic religion.

I mean to say that. In doing so, she does not start again. She keep the narrative : Muammad, Kaba, Zem zem. With this, it is impossible to find something. She found then nothing and was rather lost when she dealt with  the core text of the Quran (about the pagans notably)..
She was dressed as a revisionist whereas she was not! And this "dress" obliged her to flee. It's quite ironic...
Am I (at last!) clear?

I never said (TM) she had to do everything. I just says that she start nothing as she still accept "Muhammad" and the rest. And I consider that in accepting "Muhammad" and the rest." she start again nothing. That is all ;)

that is a terrible accusation.. why?? what is wrong with you? and what is wrong with you and her dear Altara? what happened??

why say ....."She fled to Princeton."?? She fled to Princeton from London??

The way it is going now in England I am sure . every one will run away from London

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything

I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim

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Reply #8037 - October 22, 2019, 10:43 AM

Quote from: yeezevee on October 22, 2019, 07:46 AM
which one dear Altara? you mean translation((Translation by Andrew S. Jacobs)?? or the original source "Doctrina of Jacobi"??

Err... it is rather the same
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Muḥammad, the Keys to Paradise, and the Doctrina Iacobi: A Late Antique Puzzle* by Sean Anthony

Scholarship identifies immediately the character having the Keys to Paradise in the Doctrina Jacobi to Muḥammad. I have (at length) in this very thread explained why it is not the case considering what will be told of Muḥammad by the 9th c. narrative and the attestation of the Quran where the character addressed (or God Directly) never announce what says the character having the Keys to Paradise in the Doctrina Jacobi.
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why say ....."She fled to Princeton."?? She fled to Princeton from London??

I have (at length) in this very thread explained all about Crone. I will stop now, considering that I have no more to say.
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Reply #8038 - October 22, 2019, 01:26 PM

Quote from: Sean Anthony
Taking our cues from the actual text, the 670s might, therefore, actually be the best period in which to date the Doctrina Iacobi.

Altara - what’s your view on the date of it?

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Reply #8039 - October 22, 2019, 03:22 PM

Quote from: Altara on October 22, 2019, 10:43 AM
Err... it is rather the same
Scholarship identifies immediately the character having the Keys to Paradise in the Doctrina Jacobi to Muḥammad. I have (at length) in this very thread explained why it is not the case considering what will be told of Muḥammad by the 9th c. narrative and the attestation of the Quran where the character addressed (or God Directly) never announce what says the character having the Keys to Paradise in the Doctrina Jacobi.

OK.. you are right and you write well

But.... but....but you are wrong and very wrong in saying and portraying dr. Patrica crone as "believer" as if she was a FAITH HEAD LIKE YOU GUYS IN EARLY ISLAMIC HISTORY EXPLORERS

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I have (at length) in this very thread explained all about Crone. I will stop now, considering that I have no more to say.

Nope...No.......... you have discussed nothing and you know NOTHING about why she left London and joined that Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton US of A .,

As a Scholar in the field you must NOT Say or write again anywhere on internet that statement ... "She fled to Princeton."

And let me watch this guy and read him a bit dr. Sohail Hashmi .. A Historian of Islam

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pgrn3ty3u8o

And and you go read that book of Dr. ROBERT G. HOYLAND .
Quote
SEEING ISLAM AS OTHERS SAW IT A SURVEY AND EVALUATION OF CHRISTIAN, JEWISH AND ZOROASTRIAN WRITINGS ON EARLY ISLAM by Robert Hoyland

WHO WAS A STUDENT OF dr, Patrica Crone ... on historical "Incidental References to early Islam" from folks like
Quote
John Moschus (d. 619 or 634)
Sophronius, Patriarch of Jerusalem (d. ca. 639)
Thomas the Presbyter (wr. ca. 640)
Gabriel of Qartmin (d. 648)
Pope Martin I ( 649-55)
Sebeos, Bishop of the Bagratunis ( wr. 660s)
Anastasi us of Sinai (d. ca. 700)
etc.. etc.. folks.,

Hoyland did very good job in that book on that subject dear Alatar ., if you read it already .. YOU PLEASE READ IT AGAIN..

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Topic: Qur'anic studies today

yeezevee

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