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Reply #9540 - July 30, 2020, 06:41 AM

Quote from: Altara on July 29, 2020, 09:40 PM
Zeca, the site seems down for me.

Try downloading it from the SOAS site: https://eprints.soas.ac.uk/29518/

The download takes a while. It’s an old thesis - from 1969 - so I’m not sure how useful it is.

Quote
Abstract
This thesis is a political study of the Umayyad Caliphate during the reign of 'Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan, 65-86/684-705. The first chapter deals with the political, social and religious background of 'Abd al-Malik, and relates this to his later policy on becoming caliph. Chapter II is devoted to the 'Alid opposition of the period, i.e. the revolt of al-Mukhtar ibn Abi 'Ubaid al-Thaqafi, and its nature, causes and consequences. The 'Asabiyya (tribal feuds), a dominant phenomenon of the Umayyad period, is examined in the third chapter. An attempt is made to throw light on its causes, and on the policies adopted by 'Abd al-Malik to contain it. The fourth chapter is concerned with the civil war between 'Abd al-Malik and Ibn al-Zubair. The underlying factors leading the people of al-Hijaz to support Ibn al-Zubair are examined, to elucidate the nature of the Zubairid opposition movement in general. Chapter V deals with the revolts of Ibn al-Jarud, and of the Zanj; the insurrection of the Azd in 'Uman; and the far more dangerous revolt of 'Abd al-Rahman ibn al-Ash'ath. These revolts are compared to see if they spring from similar discontents, and whether they are in response to the policies of al-Hajjaj. Chapter VI treats the Kharijite movement, which reached its height of activity in this period, in its political aspect, as a source of opposition to 'Abd al-Malik's caliphate. The minor, scattered revolts are described as well as the better-known major Kharijite revolts. This chapter also examines the link between the revolt of Mutarrif ibn al-Mughira, and the movement of Shabii ibn Yazid and the Kharijites in general.

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Reply #9541 - July 30, 2020, 11:25 AM

Quote from: zeca on July 30, 2020, 06:41 AM
Try downloading it from the SOAS site: https://eprints.soas.ac.uk/29518/

The download takes a while. It’s an old thesis - from 1969 - so I’m not sure how useful it is.

hi zeca .. why do you think that it is not useful ? just curious .. is it because 1969 and he did not have internet and even library access to his work?? after all the book/thesis is dealing with The Umayyad caliphate, 65-86/684-705: (a political study)

that 684 to 705 appears to be very important time in Islam ., I wonder you have any other works on Islam of Umayyad caliphate,., Specially from Christians and Jewish authors of that time

I casually read through that 370 pages of thesis here and there ., In fact it appears his work is published as book.,

https://www.amazon.com/Umayyad-Caliphate-Abd-al-Ameer-Dixon/dp/0718901495

I am actually looking in to the source/references that he collected to write his thesis... for e.g he refers these guys

Quote
A l-Y a ‘qubi, Ahmad ibn Abi Y a'q ub (d .2 8 4 /8 9 7 ), Arab historian and geographer...

3. Duri, The Iraq School of History to the Ninth Century - a Sketch,
p . 53 in Historians of the M iddle East, ed. M .P . Holt and B, Lewis,
Oxford, 1964.

do you have any idea who this guy Abd Al-Am eer 1 Abd Dixon is?? who wrote that thesis ...... and where he is now?? back projecting/investigating early Islamic history through The Umayyad caliphate times seems to give some clues on earlier times of Islam

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Reply #9542 - July 30, 2020, 12:06 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on July 30, 2020, 11:25 AM
hi zeca .. why do you think that it is not useful ? just curious .. is it because 1969 and he did not have internet and even library access to his work??

I wasn’t really saying that it isn’t useful - more wondering whether it had been superseded by other research in the last 50 years.

Quote
do you have any idea who this guy Abd Al-Am eer 1 Abd Dixon is?? who wrote that thesis ...... and where he is now??

I’ve no idea who he is or whether he wrote anything else.

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Reply #9543 - July 30, 2020, 02:32 PM

Read the dissertation.
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Reply #9544 - July 30, 2020, 02:50 PM

Quote from: Altara on July 30, 2020, 02:32 PM
Read the dissertation.

I AM READING.... i think that is an important book/thesis .. unfortunately did not became famous... did not come to light.. I must thank zeca for that...

now dear Altara you tell me where this guy Abd al Malik was born?? Medina?? Present Medina or Yathrib ...Yathrib ...Yathrib ??

where was it??

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Reply #9545 - July 30, 2020, 11:08 PM

Quote
now dear Altara you tell me where this guy Abd al Malik was born?? Medina?? Present Medina or Yathrib ...Yathrib ...Yathrib ??

where was it??

Nor Malik nor Zubayr were born in the peninsula contrary to what can say the narrative.

Malik >>> Merv
Zubayr >>> Iraq
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Reply #9546 - July 31, 2020, 02:55 AM

Quote from: Altara on July 30, 2020, 11:08 PM
Nor Malik nor Zubayr were born in the peninsula contrary to what can say the narrative.

Malik >>> Merv
Zubayr >>> Iraq

Zubayr birth place could be present Iraq... but what?? Malik was born in ..Merv?? .... Oold Persian city...? . that is presently in Turkmenistan.?? That sounds like too far east ., or... there was another town named as Merv at that time?

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Reply #9547 - July 31, 2020, 07:19 AM

Quote from: Altara on July 30, 2020, 11:08 PM
Nor Malik nor Zubayr were born in the peninsula contrary to what can say the narrative.

Malik >>> Merv
Zubayr >>> Iraq

Are there indications in the sources for this?

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Reply #9548 - July 31, 2020, 07:22 AM

Harry Munt - Caliphal imperialism and Ḥijāzī elites in the second/eighth century

http://eprints.whiterose.ac.uk/98416/1/Caliphal_imperialism.pdf

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Reply #9549 - July 31, 2020, 07:27 AM

Adam Bursi - A Holy Heretical Body: Ṭalḥa b. ʿUbayd Allāh's Corpse and Early Islamic Sectarianism

https://online.ucpress.edu/SLA/article/2/2/147/83358/A-Holy-Heretical-Body-al-a-b-Ubayd-Allah-s-Corpse

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Reply #9550 - July 31, 2020, 07:32 AM

Andrew Marsham - The Architecture of Allegiance in Early Islamic Late Antiquity: The Accession of Mu‘awiya in Jerusalem, ca. 661 CE

https://www.academia.edu/12627875/The_Architecture_of_Allegiance_in_Early_Islamic_Late_Antiquity_The_Accession_of_Mu_awiya_in_Jerusalem_ca._661_CE

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Reply #9551 - July 31, 2020, 07:43 AM

Andrew Marsham - Constructing the Umayyads

https://www.research.ed.ac.uk/portal/files/23798562/Intro_Masaq_Marsham_copy_edit_changes_accepted_1.pdf

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Reply #9552 - July 31, 2020, 07:49 AM

Antoine Borrut - Remembering Karbalāʾ: The Construction of an Early Islamic Site of Memory

https://www.academia.edu/14539356/Remembering_Karbalāʾ_The_Construction_of_an_Early_Islamic_Site_of_Memory

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Reply #9553 - July 31, 2020, 07:59 AM

Samuel Truman Wilder - Ghazal Poetry and the Marwānids: A Study of Kuthayyir ʿAzza

https://www.repository.cam.ac.uk/bitstream/handle/1810/291042/STW-Dis-Submission-Feb-04-2019.pdf?sequence=1
Quote
The legitimizing importance of the ḥajj is highlighted even more if we look again at the events in the Ḥijāz during the Second Fitna. During the period of time when he was in control of Mecca, Ibn al-Zubayr led the pilgrimage there every year. During these years, the pilgrimage itself became a site of great contestation, and numerous events of open conflict and tension involving the ḥajj in this period are reported, culminating in the ḥajj season of 68/687, when four separate groups performed the ḥajj under four separate banners, with separate groups of pilgrims representing the Umayyads, the followers of Ibn al-Zubayr, the Khārijites led by Najda al-Ḥarūrī, and the followers of Ibn al-Ḥanafīya, respectively, who are all reported to have tensely fulfilled the rituals in one another’s vicinity. When Ibn al-Zubayr was finally defeated, the ‘unification’ of the caliphate was marked by the pilgrimage being led, in 73/692 and 74/693, by the vanquisher of Ibn al- Zubayr, the powerful Umayyad governor of the Ḥijāz, al-Ḥajjāj.

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Reply #9554 - July 31, 2020, 08:39 AM

That's correct. (For me...) It is Zubayr who have built/rebuilt a ruin in an empty valley that he has found and then claimed that it was the valley of the city of the Prophet that he now hold with his troops to get the legitimacy in the war vs Malik.

Quote
Are there indications in the sources for this?

Malik is the son of Marwan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marwan_I which is not an Arabic etymon. It can be tied with Merv.
The so called Medinan guys in the narrative are all Iraqi. Ali is described as the amir al muminin of al Hira in early contemporary source where Mecca/Kaba and the peninsula are never mentioned.
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Reply #9555 - July 31, 2020, 09:49 AM

Quote from: Altara on July 31, 2020, 08:39 AM
That's correct. (For me...) It is Zubayr who have built/rebuilt a ruin in an empty valley that he has found and then claimed that it was the valley of the city of the Prophet that he now hold with his troops to get the legitimacy in the war vs Malik.

Malik is the son of Marwan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marwan_I which is not an Arabic etymon. It can be tied with Merv.
The so called Medinan guys in the narrative are all Iraqi. Ali is described as the amir al muminin of al Hira in early contemporary source where Mecca/Kaba and the peninsula are never mentioned.

My goodness what you write make sense ., this whole present Mecca/Medina Islam sounds like parrot story .. each parrot listening to other parrot and singing same song .. With all the Islamic background(family/community) I have from South Asia i never would have read about that city Merv https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merv and its connection to Islam...

bumped in to interesting publication on Umayyads

Umayyad Ideology and the Recurrence of the Past by Abdulhadi ALAJMI and Khaled KESHK

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Reply #9556 - August 01, 2020, 09:22 AM

Quote from: Altara on July 31, 2020, 08:39 AM

Malik is the son of Marwan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marwan_I which is not an Arabic etymon. It can be tied with Merv.

you seem to use lot of wiki links in your posts which you use to defend your hypothesis on the early Islamic history ., I am sure you know that wiki pages can be edited by many novice self made historians., I wonder whether you cross check on what is written in wiki??

and what is your opinion on this Battle of the Camel in Islam?? It seems like a fishy story https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Camel

did it occur the way Islamic historians depicted or is it same as Muhammad/Mecca/Medina zam zam Islam song of yours ??

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Reply #9557 - August 01, 2020, 06:46 PM

1/Lol yes.
2/East vs West
3/Islamic historians have located (Battle of the Camel) following the frame Muhammad/Mecca/Medina zam zam whereas it has nothing to do with this, but to the leadership of Arabs in Iraq and Syria Palestine who have at hand Quranic texts.
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Reply #9558 - August 02, 2020, 09:18 AM

Quote from: Altara on August 01, 2020, 06:46 PM
1/Lol yes.

i get that
Quote
2/East vs West

you mean to say Islam of western Arabia (Mecca/Medina story) Vs Islam eastern Arabia where Islam starts from Arab leaders of Syria/Palestine/Jordan/Iraq

Quote
3/Islamic historians have located (Battle of the Camel) following the frame Muhammad/Mecca/Medina zam zam whereas it has nothing to do with this, but to the leadership of Arabs in Iraq and Syria Palestine who have at hand Quranic texts.

That I agree . Question is did it really occur?? if it did in what year???

,...............The Battle of the Camel, also known as the Battle of Jamel or the Battle of Basra, took place at Basra, Iraq on 7 November 656........................ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Camel ...

Quote
Battle

Some chieftains of the Kufa tribes contacted their tribes living in Basra.[12] A chieftain contacted Ali to settle the matter.[12] Ali did not want to fight and agreed to negotiate.[12] He then contacted Aisha and spoke to her,[12] "It is not wise to shed the blood of five thousand for the punishment of five hundred."[12] She agreed to settle the matter.[12] Ali then met Talha and Zubair and told them about the prophecy of Muhammad. Ali's cousin Zubair said to him, "What a tragedy that the Muslims who had acquired the strength of a rock are going to be smashed by colliding with one another."[12] Talha and Zubair did not want to fight and left the field. Everyone was happy except the people who had killed Uthman and the supporters of the Qurra, who later became the Khawarij.[12] They thought that if a settlement was reached, they would not be safe.[12] The Qurra launched a night attack and started burning the tents.[12] Ali tried to restrain his men but no one was listening. Everyone thought that the other party had committed breach of trust. Confusion prevailed throughout the night.[12] The Qurra attacked the Umayyads and the fighting started.

Talhah had left. On seeing this, Marwan (who was manipulating everyone) shot Talhah with a poisoned arrow[12] saying that he had disgraced his tribe by leaving the field.[12] According to some Shia accounts Marwan ibn al-Hakam shot Talha,[20] who became disabled in the leg by the shot and was carried into Basra, where he died later of his wound.[21][22][23] According to Shia sources Marwan said,

all that is from wiki .. how about the Battle of Karbala?? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Karbala

what is your opinion on that .. did it occur on this day....The Battle of Karbala was fought on 10 October 680.....

as a kid I used to love that story,,,,,

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Reply #9559 - August 02, 2020, 01:26 PM

East vs West: Damascus vs Iraq. 3/Islamic historians have located (Battle of the Camel) following the frame Muhammad/Mecca/Medina zam zam whereas it has nothing to do with this, but to the leadership of Arabs in Iraq and Syria Palestine who have at hand Quranic texts. I will not say more about this.
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Reply #9560 - August 02, 2020, 01:54 PM

MVP
The Regional Recitations of Al-Ǧazūlī’s Dalāʾil al-Ḫayrāt as reflected in its manuscript tradition.

While there is a common assumption that by the 15th century Classical Arabic would certainly have more or less been standardized, the recitation of the Quran remains a source of non-standard features of Arabic appearing in the everyday life of Muslims. Until today Quranic recitation remains quite distinct between different regions of the Muslims world. Especially in North Africa the transmissions of Warš and Qālūn, of the canonical Medinan reciter Nāfiʿ continue to be popular. These reading traditions do not just differ in some wording here and there, but differ in an integral way from one another in the grammar of their Arabic.

https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/MarijnvanPutten/Drafts
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Reply #9561 - August 02, 2020, 02:42 PM

Quote from: Altara on August 02, 2020, 01:26 PM
...............I will not say more about this.............

and the reason for that is ..

1). It is unpublished and you don't want any want any scavenger taking it and running away..

or or..

2). your hypothesis on origins of Islam and posts. here + your work(If you have published already ) may get you in to troubles in day to day life??

it is ok if you don't want to answer certain Questions.. but you did not say anything on this story
Quote
Battle of Karbala?? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Karbala

what is your opinion on that .. did it occur on this day....The Battle of Karbala was fought on 10 October 680.....

and.. zeca is throwing lot of links., from one of his posts I downloaded this Ph.D. thesis'

Ghazal Poetry and the Marwānids: A Study of KuthayyirʿAzza by Samuel Truman Wilder., Trinity Hall., January 2019
Quote
This dissertation is submitted for the degree of Doctor of Philosophy in the University of Cambridge

that is 2019 Ph. D. thesis., interesting in the sense of your above post specially w.r.t ., written Quran versus recitation Quran from different cultures ..

Quote
....Until today Quranic recitation remains quite distinct between different regions of the Muslims world. Especially in North Africa the transmissions of Warš and Qālūn, of the canonical Medinan reciter Nāfiʿ continue to be popular.....

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Reply #9562 - August 02, 2020, 07:00 PM

Quote
it is ok if you don't want to answer certain Questions.. but you did not say anything on this story Battle of Karbala.

East vs West: Damascus vs Iraq. Islamic historians have located (Battle of Karbala) following the frame Muhammad/Mecca/Medina zam zam whereas it has nothing to do with this, but to the leadership of Arabs in Iraq and Syria Palestine who have at hand Quranic texts since almost 637.

Quote
Until today Quranic recitation remains quite distinct between different regions of the Muslims world. Especially in North Africa the transmissions of Warš and Qālūn, of the canonical Medinan reciter Nāfiʿ continue to be popular.....

Yes.
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Reply #9563 - August 02, 2020, 10:59 PM

I will come back to your above post., but I wonder any one of you have access to this book of Steven Judd..

Religious Scholars and the Umayyads Piety-Minded Supporters of the Marwanid Caliphate by Steven Judd.

Quote
Religious Scholars and the Umayyads analyzes legal and theological developments during the Marwānid period (64/684--132/750), focusing on religious scholars who supported the Umayyads. Their scholarly network extended across several generations and significantly influenced the development of the Islamic faith. Umayyad qādòīs, who represented the intersection of religious authority and imperial power, were particularly important.

This book challenges the long-standing paradigm that the emerging Muslim faith was shaped by religious dissenters who were hostile to the Umayyads. A prosopographical analysis of Umayyad-era scholars demonstrates that piety and opposition were not necessarily synonymous. Reputable scholars served as qādòīs, tutors and advisors to Umayyad caliphs and governors. Their religious credentials were untarnished by their association with the Umayyads and they appear prominently in later hòadīth collections and fiqh works.

This historiographical study demonstrates that excessive reliance on al-Tòabarī’s chronicle has distorted the image of the Umayyads. Alternatively, biographical sources produced by later hòadīth scholars reveal a rich tradition of Umayyad-era religious scholarship that undermines al-Tòabarī’s assumptions. Offering a better understanding of early Islamic religious development, this book is a valuable resource for students and researchers in the fields of Islamic history, Islamic legal studies and Arabic historiography.

Table of Contents

Part I: The Umayyad Problem in Early Islamic History 1 Umayyad Scholars in Modern Academic Literature 2 The Problem of Sources Part II: The Pillars of Umayyad Piety 3 Al-Sha’bi (d.ca. 103/721-109/727) 4 Al-Zuhri (d. 124/742) 5 Abdallah b. ‘Aun (d. 151/768) 6 Al-Awza’i (d. 157/774) 7 Sufyan al-Thawi (d.161/778) Part III: The Qadi’in Umayyad Society 8 The Function of the Qadi under the Umayyads 9 The NETWORK OF Umayyad Qadis Conclusion 10 The Legacy of Pro-Umayyad Scholars

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Reply #9564 - August 02, 2020, 11:27 PM

Here’s a review of it by Antoine Borrut.

https://www.academia.edu/38076462/Review_of_Judd_Steven_C._Religious_Scholars_and_the_Umayyads_Piety-Minded_Supporters_of_the_Marwanid_Calipahte_London_and_New_York_Routledge_2014_Islamic_Law_and_Society_25_2018_473-75

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Reply #9565 - August 03, 2020, 09:38 AM

Quote from: yeezevee on August 02, 2020, 10:59 PM
I will come back to your above post., but I wonder any one of you have access to this book of Steven Judd..

Thanks Yeez.
Do your homework : tell us from where those guys (Zeca's review) come from: al-Shaʿbī (d. between 103/721 and 109/727), al-Zuhrī (d. 124/742), ʿAbdallāh b. ʿAwn (d. 151/768), al-Awzāʿī (d. 157/774), and Sufyān al-Thawrī (d. 161/778).
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Reply #9566 - August 03, 2020, 12:19 PM

Quote from: Altara on August 03, 2020, 09:38 AM
Thanks Yeez.
Do your homework : tell us from where those guys (Zeca's review) come from: al-Shaʿbī (d. between 103/721 and 109/727), al-Zuhrī (d. 124/742), ʿAbdallāh b. ʿAwn (d. 151/768), al-Awzāʿī (d. 157/774), and Sufyān al-Thawrī (d. 161/778).

I am not sure why you are thanking me for that book., but that just 190 pages seem to have more information on that very important period of Islam than all books/papers I read on Islam .... apart from that link of zeca on reviewing that book number of folks wrote reviews on it.. it is interesting that book seems to have published in the year 2013

dr. Asma Afsaruddin of indiana university also reviewed that book Strange though I am exploring Islam and Islamic history for a long time for personal reasons through religious as well academic point of view., I never came across dr. Steven Judd's work.. apart from that book he seem to have three more books..

Hamza M. Zafer on Steven Judd’s Religious Scholars and the Umayyads

David S. Powers of Cornell University also reviewed that book., Hmm I have to get it somehow...

as far as these guys are concerned
Quote
where those guys (Zeca's review) come from: al-Shaʿbī (d. between 103/721 and 109/727), al-Zuhrī (d. 124/742), ʿAbdallāh b. ʿAwn (d. 151/768), al-Awzāʿī (d. 157/774), and Sufyān al-Thawrī (d. 161/778).

.... Are these guys some how related to Hadith of Islam .. or they just hidden historical persons of Islam??

Anyway going back to our earlier chit-chat on that Battle of Karbala that was supposed to have occured on 10th October 680 between the army of the second Umayyad caliph Yazid I and a small army led by Husayn ibn Ali, the grandson of the Islamic prophet Muhammad, ......

Question again is ..

DID IT REALLY OCCUR...... even if we remove Prophet of Islam and Mecca /medina story from Islam...... and... and Quranic manuscripts are the only reason how Islam came through Arabic language propagated by Arabs folks/leaders of that time from Syria/Palestine/Iraq...Iran/Iran border ??

or is it complete hog-wash story?? religious believers write all sorts of stories on every faith for many reasons .. including stories for children.... you know when I was a little kid. family folks used to dress me up and put me up on horse with little sword on Muharram.... At that time I didn't know the guy was brutally murdered ... ... anyways ... life moves on

with best wishes
yeezevee

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Reply #9567 - August 03, 2020, 01:00 PM

Quote
DID Battle of Karbala REALLY OCCUR...... even if we remove Prophet of Islam and Mecca /medina story from Islam...... and... and Quranic manuscripts are the only reason how Islam came through Arabic language propagated by Arabs folks/leaders of that time from Syria/Palestine/Iraq...Iran/Iran border ??

or is it complete hog-wash story??

The rivalry Damascus vs Iraq has occurred and those two battles + the defeat of Zubayr (692) are attesting it. The third (great) battle (Great Zab one) in 750 will settled the conflict giving the leadership of the West Arabs to Iraq.
Islamic historians have located (Battle of Karbala) following the frame Muhammad/Mecca/Medina zam zam whereas it has nothing to do with this, but to the leadership of Arabs in Iraq and Syria Palestine who have at hand Quranic texts since almost 637.
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Reply #9568 - August 03, 2020, 01:30 PM

Quote from: Altara on August 03, 2020, 01:00 PM
The rivalry Damascus vs Iraq has occurred and those two battles + the defeat of Zubayr (692) are attesting it. The third (great) battle (Great Zab one) in 750 will settled the conflict giving the leadership of the West Arabs to Iraq.
Islamic historians have located (Battle of Karbala) following the frame Muhammad/Mecca/Medina zam zam whereas it has nothing to do with this, but to the leadership of Arabs in Iraq and Syria Palestine who have at hand Quranic texts since almost 637.

Now I am going in circles in understating Shia Islam., lol..... we already went through here in this very folder at https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=27568.6900

frankly speaking I don't get your response that is specific to Battle of Karbala., because you are giving dates 692.. 750....Quranic texys 637...

.....the defeat of Zubayr (692)... .. do you consider that defeat of Zubayr in 692 became the story of Karbala??

... The third (great) battle (Great Zab one) in 750 .... ., that was war between Umayyad Caliphate and the rise of the Abbasids caliphate and it is way far away in time from that Karbala massacre ...... Do you consider that war between Umayyad Caliphate and Abbasids became "Karbala Martyr story in Shia Islam?? "

Damn my brain is frying.....

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Qur'anic studies today
Reply #9569 - August 03, 2020, 06:33 PM

The battles of Damascus vs Irak : The Battle of the Camel/Basra, took place at Basra, Iraq on 7 November 656 and The Battle of Karbala was fought on 10 October 680 are not Sunni/Shii stuff it was coated/covered/overlaid by "Shi"i later like this. It was not. It was Damascus vs Irak for both stuff and has nothing to do with the Muslim narrative which was developed later : Ali was not the gender/designed successor of a "prophet", etc. Ali and Husayn contested the authority of Damascus on Iraq : that is all. Moreover, Zubayr was not an Iraqi "Shii" he was just Iraqi and contested the leadership of Damascus and was defeated.
Non Shii Iraq settled the conflict in 750.
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