Qur'anic studies today

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Reply #9600 - August 09, 2020, 01:17 PM

Quote from: mundi on August 07, 2020, 07:34 PM
Yeez,

There are so many extant 7th C folia. Yes, I do think chances are very high that we might have an extant folium from around 635. But we see extant folia carbon dated for the complete 7th C (excluding the first couple of decades). That is kind of difficult to reconcile with the seeming absence of the text in public life... *see Ikka Lindstedt)

well 635 is 7th century ..

I HAVE HUNCH and I THINK ARABIC LANGUAGE MANUSCRIPTS WERE PRESENT in 5th and 6th century .. and and QURAN MANUSCRIPTS ARE NOT FIRST ARABIC WRITTEN FOLIOS dear mundi.,

Quote
So we have scribes copying the text meticulously, and a community not being aware of the content.

well I am not sure about that.. one school ... one congregation in a remote place any where in Arabian peninsula could have transcribed multiple copies ., you don't need many scribes from different places writing Quran manuscripts with same surahs and verses.. you got get some proof to say such statements dear mundi

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Reply #9601 - August 09, 2020, 02:38 PM

Yeez,

Quote
well I am not sure about that.. one school ... one congregation in a remote place any where in Arabian peninsula could have transcribed multiple copies ., you don't need many scribes from different places writing Quran manuscripts with same surahs and verses.. you got get some proof to say such statements dear mundi

Exactly, that seems to have happened. The book was copied in scribal centers but not read in the wider community. Maybe that is why we see this break between the language of the Quran and the later recitation language. Only in 8th C was the Quran used in prayer houses and schools in the wider society?

That would also explain the break in understanding of some passages (including legal passages).
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Reply #9602 - August 09, 2020, 08:03 PM

dear mundi., then going back to earlier post
Quote from: mundi on August 07, 2020, 07:34 PM
Yeez,

There are so many extant 7th C folia. Yes, I do think chances are very high that we might have an extant folium from around 635. But we see extant folia carbon dated for the complete 7th C (excluding the first couple of decades). That is kind of difficult to reconcile with the seeming absence of the text in public life... *see Ikka Lindstedt)

again on these words
Quote
....... "7th C folia"....
..................... extant folium from around 635..............
...Carbon dated folio.........

essentially you are saying about those Quran manuscripts that are found where?? are all of them carbon dated ?? ... and which library/country has them now???
Quote
So we have scribes copying the text meticulously, and a community not being aware of the content.

That I must agree with you., but when you say "community not being aware of such printed matter on Quran" which community are you talking about?? and what is its general physical area/country in the present Arabian peninsula??

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Reply #9603 - August 09, 2020, 09:30 PM

I’m not sure if this has already been posted but here’s an interview with Ilkka Lindstedt.

Critical Approaches to Pre-Islamic Arabia and Early Islam
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jWnCncZiqFU

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Reply #9604 - August 09, 2020, 09:35 PM

Ilkka Lindstedt - Religious warfare and martyrdom in Arabic graffiti (70s–110s AH/690s–730s CE)

https://www.academia.edu/35307034/Religious_warfare_and_martyrdom_in_Arabic_graffiti_70s_110s_AH_690s_730s_CE_

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Reply #9605 - August 09, 2020, 09:46 PM

Podcast: At the Origins of Islam with Fred Donner

https://soundcloud.com/uchicago-cmes/fred-donner?in=uchicago-cmes/sets/cmes-ventures

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Reply #9606 - August 10, 2020, 09:21 AM

Podcast: The Qur’an, the Prophet, and a Forgotten History - Juan Cole in conversation with Hamza Yusuf

https://soundcloud.com/renovatiopodcast/hamza-yusuf-and-juan-cole

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Reply #9607 - August 10, 2020, 11:55 AM

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yD_miNEvOtc
Quote
Professor Nicolai Sinai was in conversation with Professor Jim Benson about his current work on a historical and literary commentary on parts of the Qur'an, undertaken in the context of the ERC project Qur'anic Commentary: An Integrative Paradigm. This commentary covers the three longest and most complex compositions in the Islamic scripture, surahs 2–4, as well as the short opening surah 1. The project seeks to develop and demonstrate an exegetical approach and format capable of addressing three core dimensions of the Qur’an: the compositional structure of Qur’anic texts; the intricate processes of literary growth and redactional expansion by which many of them have been shaped; and the theological concerns governing the Qur’an’s engagement with antecedent (especially Jewish and Christian) ideas, traditions, and literary forms. An important methodological challenge will be to scrutinize premodern Islamic exegesis as a valuable repository of close scriptural reading, even if its premises and conclusions are not always persuasive to a modern historian.

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Reply #9608 - August 10, 2020, 12:42 PM

I still did not find what was Sinai PhD dissertation. It is nowhere (to my knowledge...) indicated.
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Reply #9609 - August 10, 2020, 12:51 PM

Quote from: zeca on August 09, 2020, 09:46 PM
Podcast: At the Origins of Islam with Fred Donner

https://soundcloud.com/uchicago-cmes/fred-donner?in=uchicago-cmes/sets/cmes-ventures

Mixing sources with no agenda and the Muslim narrative is not (for me...) the good way.
Yet, Donner has written an important (I wont say which...) article which could have changed his view of what happened if he had had a distanciation that an historian must have before such a topic as Early Islam. He literally does not realize what he wrote so much the Muslim narrative prevent his brain to work.
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Reply #9610 - August 10, 2020, 02:35 PM

Quote from: Altara on August 10, 2020, 12:42 PM
I still did not find what was Sinai PhD dissertation. It is nowhere (to my knowledge...) indicated.

well whatever his Ph. D. may be.. who cares dear Altara .. what is important is Money.. money talks

£1.5m grant for him from that European Research Council for investigating Quran should be enough for him to talk politically correct talks/seminars., Nicolai Sinai did a good job here at this pub..

Qurʾānic Self-Referentiality as a Strategy of Self-Authorization”, in Self-Referentiality in the Qurʾān, edited by Stefan Wild, Wiesbaden 2006, pp. 103–134.

Quote
........Nicolai Sinai holds a PhD in Arabic Studies from the Free University Berlin (2007) ][/u]

He is Lecturer in Islamic Studies at the University of Oxford and Fellow of Pembroke College. His main field of research is the Qur''an and Qur''anic exegesis, but he also has a strong interest in the history of philosophy and theology in the Islamic world. His current work focuses on the Medinan stratum of the Qur''an and its place in the literary and cultural world of Late Antiquity. He hopes that Zukunftsphilologie will allow him to learn more about how scriptural interpretation in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam compares to other exegetical cultures.

Nicolai''s books include Fortschreibung und Auslegung: Studien zur frühen Koraninterpretation (2009), where he explored the phenomenon of inner-Qur’anic interpretation as a process of canon formation, and studied the typologies and strategies of early Muslim exegesis. Nicolai has also produced a German translation and commentary of the 12th century philosopher, Shihāb ad-Dīn as-Suhrawardī''s Philosophy of Illumination (Ḥikmat al-ishrāq: Die Philosophie der Erleuchtung, 2011).

that is from his Oxford profile... what Arabic studies??.. Allah knows the best ..

Self Referentiality and Self Authorization” is the way to make name for yourself.. but that was a good publication...

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Reply #9611 - August 10, 2020, 05:02 PM

Quote
well whatever his Ph. D. may be.. who cares dear Altara ..

I do.
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Reply #9612 - August 10, 2020, 06:12 PM

Nicolai Sinai - Beyond the Cairo Edition: On the Study of Early Quranic Codices

https://www.academia.edu/42333408/_Beyond_the_Cairo_Edition_On_the_Study_of_Early_Quranic_Codices_Journal_of_the_American_Oriental_Society_140_no_1_2020_189_204
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This essay reviews two recent volumes containing editions of important early quranic codices. One of these is the so-called Sanaa Palimpsest, whose lower text at present remains our only known material witness to a recension of the quranic text that is diﬀerent from the canonical one; the other is the Codex Amrensis. The essay devotes particular attention to the question of the textual relationship between the Quran’s standard text and that documented by the lower layer of the Sanaa Palimpsest, and to Asma Hilali’s claim that the Sanaa Palimpsest never constituted a full quranic codex but only “a collection of disparate leaves.“

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Reply #9613 - August 10, 2020, 10:56 PM

Quote from: zeca on August 10, 2020, 06:12 PM
Nicolai Sinai - Beyond the Cairo Edition: On the Study of Early Quranic Codices

https://www.academia.edu/42333408/_Beyond_the_Cairo_Edition_On_the_Study_of_Early_Quranic_Codices_Journal_of_the_American_Oriental_Society_140_no_1_2020_189_204

that is a good publication... and it is from year 2020., from Journal of the American Oriental Society 140.1 (2020)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twY80hvwvjQ
http://independent.academia.edu/AsmaHilali

https://www.scm.uni-halle.de/_/mitwirkende/alumni/asma_hilali/?lang=en

i often wonder guys like these ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klr3Jy2e3mk

do they really read anything on the subject or just make up stories and talk..talk talk in you tubes....

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #9614 - August 11, 2020, 05:47 PM

Quote
Quote from: yeezevee on August 07, 2020, 09:18 AM
hello Altara .. I wonder whether you read this publication of dr., Walid A. Saleh., whom zecca mentioned in one of his posts in another folder

The Preacher of the Meccan Quran: Deuteronomistic History and Confessionalism in Muhammads Early Preaching by Walid A. Saleh

please read that interesting publication if you did not read already,,, here is the abstract from it

dr. Walid Saleh publications

and Altara says on that Walid A. Saleh publication...
Quote from: Altara on August 07, 2020, 10:29 AM
I read it. One sees how the existence of Muhammad/Mecca/Kaba is crucial to be Muslim.

well dear Altara., dr. Walid Saleh is not JUST A MUSLIM., he is a Ph. D. holder and is also an historian of Islam., You just can not neglect publications of such folks., Either you put out counter arguments or you accept their understanding of Quran....

anyway then how about this one from him.. on surah-43??

Meccan Gods, Jesus' Divinity: An Analysis of Q 43 Surat al-Zukhruf by Walid Saleh 2018

with best wishes
yeezevee

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #9615 - August 12, 2020, 03:46 PM

Quote
dr. Walid Saleh is not JUST A MUSLIM., he is a Ph. D.

Sure. He is a Muslim who see history of Islam through the Muslim narrative.Muslim narrative that I consider as not historically true.
But it does not prevent Saleh to be a fine analyst of the Quran. This the case with Meccan Gods, Jesus' Divinity: An Analysis of Q 43 Surat al-Zukhruf and The Preacher of the Meccan Qur’an:Deuteronomistic History and Confessionalism in Muḥammad’s Early Preaching* p.74-79.
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Reply #9616 - August 12, 2020, 04:50 PM

Quote from: Altara on August 12, 2020, 03:46 PM
Sure. He is a Muslim who see history of Islam through the Muslim narrative. Muslim narrative that I consider as not historically true.

Really???

Do you think he is REAL Muslim? Real Islam practicing Muslim?? or just a Muslim for name sake because he was born to Muslim parents??

and I don't like your cutthroat response yet I will read and consider them as an important step to investigate true Islamic history and history of Quran dear Altara.,

But If you have read me on web some 20 year ago., my response to your post would have been this
Quote
Well "'Altara being non-Muslim who know nothing about Islam will always consider Muslim narrative of Islam is not historically true.,., ""

THAT IS WHAT MOST NON-Muslim think about Islam and that is true to Altara and true to ALL NON-MUSLIMS WHO EXPLORED/ARE EXPLORING ISLAMIC HISTORY

but I can not say that now..

Quote
But it does not prevent Saleh to be a fine analyst of the Quran. This the case with Meccan Gods, Jesus' Divinity: An Analysis of Q 43 Surat al-Zukhruf and The Preacher of the Meccan Qur’an:Deuteronomistic History and Confessionalism in Muḥammad’s Early Preaching* p.74-79.

that is a good point ., So would you consider him as fine analyst of the Quran??

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Reply #9617 - August 12, 2020, 07:43 PM

Quote
Do you think he is REAL Muslim?

What is a real Muslim?
In any case he defends the traditional narrative.

Quote
So would you consider him as fine analyst of the Quran??

He is polluted by the narrative. Sometimes he remarks "things". Unfortunately he cannot makes sense of them as he is a great believer.,
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Reply #9618 - August 12, 2020, 08:32 PM

Podcast: https://anchor.fm/bottled-petrichor/episodes/E12-Bible--Quran--Midrash--and-Tafsir-with-Dr--Michael-Pregill-ei14dp
Quote
Bible, Qur’an, Midrash, and Tafsir with Dr. Michael Pregill

Join me as I discuss the Bible, Qur’an, Midrash, and Tafsir with Dr. Michael Pregill. We discuss the state of Qur'anic studies today and how the field has changed over the past couple decades, as well as Dr. Pregill's new book, "The Golden Calf between Bible and Qur'an" (recently published by the Oxford University Press). We then move on to several discussions, including: who was the Qur'anic Sāmirī and how is he related to Aaron/Hārūn; Qur'anic "confusions"; how the fields of Late Antiquity, the Bible/Jewish and Christian tradition, and the tafsīr/Islamic tradition relate to the contemporary study of the Qur'ān; and more!

Link to Dr. Pregill's bio: https://hcommons.org/members/mpregill/
Link to his book: https://global.oup.com/academic/product/the-golden-calf-between-bible-and-quran-9780198852421?lang=en&cc=us

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Reply #9619 - August 12, 2020, 08:50 PM

Altara asks vital question with a hint below the question .,

Hi Altara I am reading this 2015 publication and I want you to scan through it.....

**********************************************************************************************
Stereotypes Associated with Prototypes of the Prophet of Islam's Name till the 19th Century by Ahlam Sbaihat from Department of European Languages, The University of Jordan., Amman- Jordan., it is published in... Jordan Journal of Modern Languages and Literature Vol. 7, No. 1, 2015,

please read it., fascinating publication on that word "Muhammad"., since that word appeared in Quran verse 3.144., 33.40 ., 47.2 and 48.29 ......(( off course here I am removing verse 61:6., there "Ahmad." was used instead of Muhammad))...
****************************************************************************************************

That word 'Muhammad" in the above publication and those Quran verses actually couples to Walid A. Saleh publications we were discussing ., So that is the reason I want you to scan through the above papers as I have some doubts on the presence of that word in Quran manuscripts(NOT THE BOOK).,

In fact I and mundi discussed about the presence of that word in early Quran manuscripts in this very folder....

anyway back to your post

Quote from: Altara on August 12, 2020, 07:43 PM
Q: What(who) is a real Muslim?

In any case he defends the traditional narrative.

well you answered your own question with that word " "traditional narrative." ..

A simple answer is ., ...........A person who strictly follows " "traditional narrative. of Islam" in his/her life can be considered as real Muslim ...............

but let me rephrase that question and answer again in another post .. So the question/s is/are
Quote
1. What is REAL ISLAM??

2. Who is REAL MUSLIM??

those are very important questions ..specially in these times in 21st century ..........
Quote
He is polluted by the narrative. Sometimes he remarks "things". Unfortunately he cannot makes sense of them as he is a great believer.,

well you are right and I will agree with you 100%

with best wishes
yeezevee

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Reply #9620 - August 13, 2020, 08:21 AM

Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/bdaiwi_historia/status/1293641557531414528
Quote
Next month I start my fellowship at Cambridge University. The project is about the quranic "pagans," picking up where Patricia Crone left off. In the main I will investigate the religion and philosophical worldview of the "pagans" or mushrikūn of the Quran. A background thread.

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Reply #9621 - August 13, 2020, 08:36 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on August 12, 2020, 04:50 PM
Do you think he is REAL Muslim? Real Islam practicing Muslim?? or just a Muslim for name sake because he was born to Muslim parents??

I couldn’t say for Walid Saleh but it’s certainly possible to be an academic doing useful work on Quranic studies and be a Muslim. See this video for example which I posted on the other thread but could go equally well here. What would be the point of questioning whether someone like Khalil Andani is a real Muslim?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=APhqeMzeBC4

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Reply #9622 - August 13, 2020, 08:43 PM

Quote from: zeca on July 24, 2020, 08:39 PM
Podcast: https://anchor.fm/bottled-petrichor/episodes/E11-The-Quran-and-its-Context-with-Dr--Emran-El-Badawi-egrom2
Quote
The Qur'an and its Context with Dr. Emran El Badawi

I'm pleased to have on Dr. Emran El-Badawi, Associate Professor at the University of Houston and the founding executive director of the International Qur'anic Studies Association (IQSA). We discuss various theories of the origins of the Qurʼān, the Qurʼān and the Aramaic gospel traditions (which is also the title of his book), Ephrem the Syrian's homilies, the Qurʼān in conversation with Late Antiquity, approaching the Qurʼān as believing historians, and more!

The same goes for Emran El-Badawi.

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Reply #9623 - August 13, 2020, 09:26 PM

Quote
Quote from: zeca on August 13, 2020, 08:36 PM
I couldn’t say for Walid Saleh but it’s certainly possible to be an academic doing useful work on Quranic studies and be a Muslim. See this video for example which I posted on the other thread but could go equally well here. What would be the point of questioning whether someone like Khalil Andani is a real Muslim?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=APhqeMzeBC4

Quote from: zeca on August 13, 2020, 08:43 PM

The same goes for Emran El-Badawi.

well without defining those three words ... we will be running circles in discussing the subject dear zeca ., Can you define .. Who is Muslim and who is not a Muslim.,

As far as useful work in Quran concerned., I am not sure what is really a useful work .. everyone who writes something about Quran could be considered as Useful to some extent...

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Reply #9624 - August 13, 2020, 09:43 PM

If someone calls themself a Muslim then who am I to say that they’re not, or not a real Muslim?

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Reply #9625 - August 14, 2020, 08:17 AM

Quote from: zeca on August 13, 2020, 09:43 PM
If someone calls themself a Muslim then who am I to say that they’re not, or not a real Muslim?

dear zeca the question is NOT about real Muslim... unreal Muslim ..atheist Muslim .. shia Muslim... sunni Muslim...Ahmadiyya Muslim.. sufi Muslim.... Quran only Muslim.... etc..etc..

Quote from: yeezevee on August 13, 2020, 09:26 PM
............dear zeca ., Can you define .. Who is Muslim and who is not a Muslim., ............

At its core of that Question...

"What is Islam........ Who is Muslim .....and Who is Not A Muslim.... how do we define a Muslim...."

well that is a tough question.... so let me read... starting with a twiiter

Quote
https://mobile.twitter.com/bdaiwi_historia/status/1293641557531414528

https://musliminstitute.org/freethinking/freethinking/who-muslim

https://www.islamweb.net/en/article/134495/who-is-a-muslim

http://shiastudies.org/article/who-is-a-muslim

https://www.whyislam.org/islam-across-the-globe/who-are-muslims/

The left is wrong on Islam. The right is wrong on Muslims." — author Ali Rizvi

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Reply #9626 - August 14, 2020, 11:46 AM

Quote
At its core of that Question...
"What is Islam........ Who is Muslim .....and Who is Not A Muslim.... how do we define a Muslim...."

Yeez it's another topic...
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Reply #9627 - August 14, 2020, 12:18 PM

Quote from: Altara on August 14, 2020, 11:46 AM
Yeez it's another topic...

I fully agree with you on that., let us move on with Quranic studies ., I just got side tracked because of twitter

anyway talking about twitter and Quran... Ahab Bdaiwi says

Quote
Ahab Bdaiwi איהאבּ ܐܝܗܐܒ
@bdaiwi_historia
·
Aug 12
3/The Quran gives us good clues to help understand the "pagans" who emerge as the chief adversaries of the Prophet Muḥammad and perhaps the most-mentioned theological interlocutors during his career.

Quote
https://mobile.twitter.com/bdaiwi_historia/status/1293641557531414528

1/Next month I start my fellowship at Cambridge University. The project is about the quranic "pagans," picking up where Patricia Crone left off. In the main I will investigate the religion and philosophical worldview of the "pagans" or mushrikūn of the Quran.

https://mobile.twitter.com/bdaiwi_historia

that is a good subject ... and I would suggest to Bdaiwi to read Quran verses such as these

Quote
(Clicky for piccy!)

(Clicky for piccy!)

https://versebyversequranstudycircle.wordpress.com/tag/mushrikeen/

and and write a detailed publication on those verses.... Prophet Muhammad and his Career from Quran verses is a also an interesting subject

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Reply #9628 - August 14, 2020, 02:59 PM

Ahab Bdaiwi:
Quote
The Quran gives us good clues to help understand the "pagans"...

I do not believe the Quran ; a scholar must not believe or take for granted what it says.
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Reply #9629 - August 14, 2020, 05:13 PM

Quote from: Altara on August 14, 2020, 02:59 PM
Ahab Bdaiwi:
I do not believe the Quran ; a scholar must not believe or take for granted what it says.

That every one must agree and it is a nugget.,

Quote
"A scholar in any field of investigation can not be biased must not believe or take for granted what a book, an hypothesis or a proposition or a postulation says"

but I do not understand your other words "I do not believe the Quran"

you meant to say

1. "you do not believe the Quran is word of Allah/God?

2. or "you do not believe that the Quran has information on the history of early Islam formation "??

3. or you are trying to say., "A scholar should not take on its face value what Quran says as fact of history and has no value for historians that are exploring early Islamic years??"

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Topic: Qur'anic studies today

yeezevee

Reply #9600 - August 09, 2020, 01:17 PM

mundi

Reply #9601 - August 09, 2020, 02:38 PM

yeezevee

Reply #9602 - August 09, 2020, 08:03 PM

zeca

Reply #9603 - August 09, 2020, 09:30 PM

zeca

Reply #9604 - August 09, 2020, 09:35 PM

zeca

Reply #9605 - August 09, 2020, 09:46 PM

zeca

Reply #9606 - August 10, 2020, 09:21 AM

zeca

Reply #9607 - August 10, 2020, 11:55 AM

Altara

Reply #9608 - August 10, 2020, 12:42 PM

Altara

Reply #9609 - August 10, 2020, 12:51 PM

yeezevee

Reply #9610 - August 10, 2020, 02:35 PM

Altara

Reply #9611 - August 10, 2020, 05:02 PM

zeca

Reply #9612 - August 10, 2020, 06:12 PM

yeezevee

Reply #9613 - August 10, 2020, 10:56 PM

yeezevee

Reply #9614 - August 11, 2020, 05:47 PM

Altara

Reply #9615 - August 12, 2020, 03:46 PM

yeezevee

Reply #9616 - August 12, 2020, 04:50 PM

Altara

Reply #9617 - August 12, 2020, 07:43 PM

zeca

Reply #9618 - August 12, 2020, 08:32 PM

yeezevee

Reply #9619 - August 12, 2020, 08:50 PM

zeca

Reply #9620 - August 13, 2020, 08:21 AM

zeca

Reply #9621 - August 13, 2020, 08:36 PM

zeca

Reply #9622 - August 13, 2020, 08:43 PM

yeezevee

Reply #9623 - August 13, 2020, 09:26 PM

zeca

Reply #9624 - August 13, 2020, 09:43 PM

yeezevee

Reply #9625 - August 14, 2020, 08:17 AM

Altara

Reply #9626 - August 14, 2020, 11:46 AM

yeezevee

Reply #9627 - August 14, 2020, 12:18 PM

Altara

Reply #9628 - August 14, 2020, 02:59 PM

yeezevee

Reply #9629 - August 14, 2020, 05:13 PM

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