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 Topic: Textual tonality of Quran and Allah

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  • 12 3 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Textual tonality of Quran and Allah
     OP - November 14, 2014, 08:57 PM
    Hello,

    is it just me or do you think that there is a difference between God concept in the minds of other peoples around the world and that of muslims?

    I think Quran sounds too aggressive.

    Recently, God and Allah sort of become different and whereas the concept of God relieved me and once again I made sure Islam cannot be the work of a God, Allah if he is to be taken as such in Quran makes me feel anxious and maybe guilty.

    I think I am fair in thinking that Quran cannot be from God, but sometimes my anxiety makes me think why I feel guilty and what if I secretly feel or believe Allah. What I'm sure is Allah is not the kind of God that I'd find reassuring. Do you think the anxiety might be coming from maybe "taking Allah's standards"?

    Do you have that kind of a separation in your minds?

    You have been a great help to me until now

    Thank you.
  • Textual tonality of Quran and Allah
     Reply #1 - November 14, 2014, 09:13 PM
    God (Allah) in the Qur'an is a particularly autocratic, controlling and ruthless character who does a good job of getting into your head and controlling not only your action but your thoughts and your whole being. (No wonder Arab societies have thrown up so many tyrants - little Allahs - down the years).

    But he is a complete fiction. Such a character does not and has not ever existed. He was made up by primitive people who only understood fear as a way of controlling people.

    Getting that fiction out of your head can take a long time though.
  • Textual tonality of Quran and Allah
     Reply #2 - November 14, 2014, 10:48 PM
    The Qur'an appears to be a textbook or guideline for someone to use in order to establish an autocratic state. God is the Leviathan and it is filled with rules of social conduct, legal affairs and foreign relations. In it are lessons from those nations that went astray and the consequences. It calls for a New World Order (Ummah) under one leader that abides by the Qur'an and the sovereignty of Allah.

    The Qur'an is an imperialistic manifesto underpinned by paranoid delusions of the jahil or uncivilised 'other' and the end times.

    There appears to be a rather malicious tone in which you can't really trust anyone. Not the 'allies' such as the Christians or the Jews, certainly not the pagans but also, surprisingly, not even fellow Muslims for there are Munafiqs within your ranks. Have faith in Allah. The situation is even more dire when it comes to the hadith and further away we get from the time of revelation. All men are out to fuck your wife and your wives and daughters are ready to spread their legs the first chance they get. Saints will be sinners and sinners will be saints. Oh, and if you start to doubt anything that the Qur'an says, particularly whether or not the Qur'an is a revelation from God, then Satan will possess your heart and whisper in your ear (surah an-Nas). No wonder so many Muslims love conspiracy theories.
    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Textual tonality of Quran and Allah
     Reply #3 - November 14, 2014, 10:55 PM
    Quote from: Jedi on November 14, 2014, 10:48 PM
    The Qur'an appears to be a textbook or guideline for someone to use in order to establish an autocratic state. God is the Leviathan and it is filled with rules of social conduct, legal affairs and foreign relations. In it are lessons from those nations that went astray and the consequences. It calls for a New World Order (Ummah) under one leader that abides by the Qur'an and the sovereignty of Allah.

    The Qur'an is an imperialistic manifesto underpinned by paranoid delusions of the jahil or uncivilised 'other' and the end times.

    There appears to be a rather malicious tone in which you can't really trust anyone. Not the 'allies' such as the Christians or the Jews, certainly not the pagans but also, surprisingly, not even fellow Muslims for there are Munafiqs within your ranks. Have faith in Allah. The situation is even more dire when it comes to the hadith and further away we get from the time of revelation. All men are out to fuck your wife and your wives and daughters are ready to spread their legs the first chance they get. Saints will be sinners and sinners will be saints. Oh, and if you start to doubt anything that the Qur'an says, particularly whether or not the Qur'an is a revelation from God, then Satan will possess your heart and whisper in your ear (surah an-Nas). No wonder so many Muslims love conspiracy theories.


    Bonobo stylee! Doesn't bad sound to me, better than fighting!
  • Textual tonality of Quran and Allah
     Reply #4 - November 14, 2014, 11:05 PM
    The Qur'an in summary:



     finmad THEY'RE ALL OUT TO GET YOU!!! finmad

    RUUUUUUUUN!!!
    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Textual tonality of Quran and Allah
     Reply #5 - November 14, 2014, 11:08 PM
    Quote from: Jedi on November 14, 2014, 11:05 PM
    The Qur'an in summary:

    (Clicky for piccy!)

     finmad THEY'RE ALL OUT TO GET YOU!!! finmad

    RUUUUUUUUN!!!


    GAHHHHHHH! Its a trappppppp!
  • Textual tonality of Quran and Allah
     Reply #6 - November 14, 2014, 11:11 PM
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piVnArp9ZE0
    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Textual tonality of Quran and Allah
     Reply #7 - November 14, 2014, 11:25 PM
    Out of the holy books the Quran contains the most threats for not believing and the most bribes for believing. It is very afterlife centered compared to most religions which focus on good living in the here and now
    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Textual tonality of Quran and Allah
     Reply #8 - November 14, 2014, 11:29 PM
    Convenient how it spends most of its time claiming how things are gonna be in the world after death which none of us have access to and tries to not promise too much for the world that we can observe, experience, and test now. I think it is the red flag of a charlatan to only give you information that once you can verify it, you can't get mad or get back at the person who gave you false information.
    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Textual tonality of Quran and Allah
     Reply #9 - November 14, 2014, 11:38 PM
    Quote from: justperusing on November 14, 2014, 11:25 PM
    Out of the holy books the Quran contains the most threats for not believing and the most bribes for believing. It is very afterlife centered compared to most religions which focus on good living in the here and now


    Hence the reason most muslims believe that it is almost impossible to leave Islam and that ex-muslims were never muslims to begin with.

    Sometimes I wonder if the only reason they are muslims is because they are afraid of what would happen if they werent or if they genuinely believe in all that bullshit?

    It surely is (for the majority) the first one. Otherwise, I just cant fathom the idea of how someone in their right mind could regard Islam as the truthful religion??
    It is fear that obviously guides them into irrationality.







     
  • Textual tonality of Quran and Allah
     Reply #10 - November 15, 2014, 12:32 AM
    So we all agree that it portraits a type of divinity, which might even be considered as an insult to the actual idea of God?
  • Textual tonality of Quran and Allah
     Reply #11 - November 15, 2014, 12:40 AM
    If your God gets insulted, than is no different from any other God.
    And define god. What do you mean by God? A sky-daddy? A saviour? A creator? Energy? SomeONE who cares about you, insignificant in this whole universe, because he has nothing else to do  but be human-centered?  The mere action of thinking, makes him human.
  • Textual tonality of Quran and Allah
     Reply #12 - November 15, 2014, 12:49 AM
    Quote from: abbuke on November 15, 2014, 12:32 AM
    So we all agree that it portraits a type of divinity, which might even be considered as an insult to the actual idea of God?


    If the god you have in mind is insulted by the concept of Allah, then he's been insulted countless times by the seemingly infinite amount of gods that were thought up by humanity? If you decide to believe in a personal god maybe reconsider the thought of god being insulted by ideas, if anything.
    أشهد أن لا إله
  • Textual tonality of Quran and Allah
     Reply #13 - November 15, 2014, 01:07 AM
    Quote from: INcePtion on November 15, 2014, 12:40 AM
    If your God gets insulted, than is no different from any other God.
    And define god. What do you mean by God? A sky-daddy? A saviour? A creator? Energy? SomeONE who cares about you, insignificant in this whole universe, because he has nothing else to do  but be human-centered?  The mere action of thinking, makes him human.


    I don't follow your logic here. God is an idea, it is different in everyone, even in those who don't think it actually exists. otherwise for the definition part, I'm agnostic
  • Textual tonality of Quran and Allah
     Reply #14 - November 15, 2014, 01:12 AM
    Quote from: xtremestr on November 15, 2014, 12:49 AM
    If the god you have in mind is insulted by the concept of Allah, then he's been insulted countless times by the seemingly infinite amount of gods that were thought up by humanity? If you decide to believe in a personal god maybe reconsider the thought of god being insulted by ideas, if anything.


    Why bringing up this comparison with other types of God?
    I don't think I can *decide" to believe in a personal god.

    Maybe I was ambiguous in my question.

    I think a difficult part in leaving islam, is that muslims equate Allah to God. And there is a difference. I was questioning the acceptability of the existing theistic ideas of majorities about God.
  • Textual tonality of Quran and Allah
     Reply #15 - November 15, 2014, 01:14 AM
    Im asking your definition of God, since you said more or less:
    "Allah is an insult to the idea of God"
    Then what is God to you? What is the idea of God to you? How do you think God is supposed to be IF there's any?
  • Textual tonality of Quran and Allah
     Reply #16 - November 15, 2014, 01:17 AM
    Your question is invalid because it presupposes I have a definition of God. The idea of God is what is present in each persons mind when the word God is recalled at them. I'm trying to conceptualise a God, out of its basic premises, If there is any.
  • Textual tonality of Quran and Allah
     Reply #17 - November 15, 2014, 01:25 AM
    The question is very straight-forward.
    Why mention the idea of  God, if you don't know what the idea is about?
    Quote from: abbuke on November 15, 2014, 12:32 AM
    So we all agree that it portraits a type of divinity, which might even be considered as an insult to the actual idea of God?

     
     what is this idea? If you dont know whether God exists or not, how can you be sure that Allah is not the actual god?

  • Textual tonality of Quran and Allah
     Reply #18 - November 15, 2014, 01:32 AM
    I actually don't completely follow you either, man. Unless you're talking way over my head, you might need to be a little clearer.

    Are you saying that it's an insult to the concept of God as whatever speaks to someone or draws this spiritual/sacred feeling out of them? The insult thing is where you're totally losing me.
  • Textual tonality of Quran and Allah
     Reply #19 - November 15, 2014, 01:40 AM
    OK. I'll try to make it clearer.
    Muhammad had an idea about what God is. Today almost everyone has an idea about how an ideal God might be if it actually exists.
    I'm asking if Muhammad's understanding of God is compatible with a conceptualisation of the latter. You might thing that such a conceptualisation is impossible.




  • Textual tonality of Quran and Allah
     Reply #20 - November 15, 2014, 01:50 AM
    Quote from: abbuke on November 14, 2014, 08:57 PM
    the concept of God relieved me ... Islam cannot be the work of a God,

    I think I am fair in thinking that Quran cannot be from God,



    What is that concept?
    A benevolent god as opposed to Allah?
    You are an agnostic, then how can you be sure that God is not similar to Allah ?
    You said you dont have a definition of god, but then...how does the concept of God relieve you, if you don't know what the concept is?

  • Textual tonality of Quran and Allah
     Reply #21 - November 15, 2014, 01:52 AM
    A lot of people nowadays are stepping away from envisioning evil gods with all-too-human faults, which sounds a lot like what Allah as depicted by the Quran would be. I guess I just don't understand your point re the insulting thing, though.

    As for gods and spirituality, I think liberalism and a focus on human rights in recent years has done more to revise God's image than anything inherent about faith or human nature, given that a lot of people did (and still do) buy the fire and brimstone versions of a creator.

    I guess what I'm trying to say is that if you can't answer Inception's question on the grounds that it presupposes you have a definition of God, I'm not so sure why you said this in the first place, as the Allah character can fit anyone's concept of God and indeed fits many people's concept of God.

    I may just be missing the point and you might just be completely going over my head, because I really have no idea what you're trying to argue still. My bad if that's the case.
  • Textual tonality of Quran and Allah
     Reply #22 - November 15, 2014, 01:58 AM
    What is that concept? - I'm not sure, I don't know
    A benevolent god as opposed to Allah? - Maybe yes, maybe a kind of God that we can never define.
    How can I be sure God is not similar to Allah? - I can't be sure, and I don't need to be sure.
    The concept of God can relieve me, when it alludes to my feelings which are linked to that concept in my sub-conscious, even if I don't know what it is.

    Your invalid question - which was ver straight-forward - remains invalid. God-concept is not under the monopoly of those who claim to know him.

    It might not make sense to you. Or a non defined God as apposed to Allah may seem meaningless to you. On the other hand, what I understand is, you reject God based on its traditional definitions. That's why your automatism of question bombardment comes.
  • Textual tonality of Quran and Allah
     Reply #23 - November 15, 2014, 02:02 AM
    Quote
    It might not make sense to you.

    No, it just simply doesn't.
  • Textual tonality of Quran and Allah
     Reply #24 - November 15, 2014, 02:03 AM
    Quote
    The concept of God can relieve me, when it alludes to my feelings which are linked to that concept in my sub-conscious, even if I don't know what it is.


    Then it's an insult to your feelings on God, and whether or not it ever is to anyone else or in general is always completely subjective, right?
  • Textual tonality of Quran and Allah
     Reply #25 - November 15, 2014, 02:03 AM
    Quote from: lua on November 15, 2014, 01:52 AM
    A lot of people nowadays are stepping away from envisioning evil gods with all-too-human faults, which sounds a lot like what Allah as depicted by the Quran would be. I guess I just don't understand your point re the insulting thing, though.

    As for gods and spirituality, I think liberalism and a focus on human rights in recent years has done more to revise God's image than anything inherent about faith or human nature, given that a lot of people did (and still do) buy the fire and brimstone versions of a creator.

    I guess what I'm trying to say is that if you can't answer Inception's question on the grounds that it presupposes you have a definition of God, I'm not so sure why you said this in the first place, as the Allah character can fit anyone's concept of God and indeed fits many people's concept of God.

    I may just be missing the point and you might just be completely going over my head, because I really have no idea what you're trying to argue still. My bad if that's the case.


    Ok, "insult" is not the right word, let's say it "is incompatible". I said "the idea of God" in the first place to invite ourselves to think about it. You might reject the question and not answer it. But questioning my question requires those presuppositions. Allah character seemingly fits only a minority in this world, diachronically it fits a considerably negligible number of people in the history.
  • Textual tonality of Quran and Allah
     Reply #26 - November 15, 2014, 02:06 AM
    Quote from: abbuke on November 15, 2014, 01:58 AM
    What is that concept? - I'm not sure, I don't know
    A benevolent god as opposed to Allah? - Maybe yes, maybe a kind of God that we can never define.
    How can I be sure God is not similar to Allah? - I can't be sure, and I don't need to be sure.



    And how does the concept of a benevolent god relieves you, if you can't be sure?


    Then why make this statement in the first place, if you cant be sure? What if it is?


    Quote
    I think I am fair in thinking that Quran cannot be from God

  • Textual tonality of Quran and Allah
     Reply #27 - November 15, 2014, 02:06 AM
    Quote from: abbuke on November 15, 2014, 01:17 AM
    Your question is invalid because it presupposes I have a definition of God. The idea of God is what is present in each persons mind when the word God is recalled at them. I'm trying to conceptualise a God, out of its basic premises, If there is any.


    Quote
    I think I am fair in thinking that Quran cannot be from God, but sometimes my anxiety makes me think why I feel guilty and what if I secretly feel or believe Allah. What I'm sure is Allah is not the kind of God that I'd find reassuring. Do you think the anxiety might be coming from maybe "taking Allah's standards"?


    You're contradicting yourself. All throughout the times people have defined their own personal god as per their ideology and understanding of the world, which you seem to unconsciously be doing. I'm not saying you believe in a personal god, but at the very least you have attributes that you go as far as to consider an insult to any actual god figure(regardless of whether or not the god takes offense). Even when people had the personal gods of those with power shoved down their throats they'd always manage to find a picture of their own god in it(i.e. different interpretations of the Qur'an). I'd say pretty convincingly that a large amount of apostates left Islam not due to fallacies in the Qur'an and the such but due to finding features of Allah(or Yahweh, JC, w/e) that made their picture of god -that they painted with their knowledge and own personality- impossible to maintain within that religion. I, for one, was only able to seriously consider the amount of flaws within the Qur'an and hadiths after first finding within them things that I could never agree with, no matter the evidence. Simply put, even if Allah existed, I would rather burn in hell forever than pray to him, which is probably why I've never really had that anxiety lots of ex-muslims have at first.
    أشهد أن لا إله
  • Textual tonality of Quran and Allah
     Reply #28 - November 15, 2014, 02:07 AM
    Quote from: lua on November 15, 2014, 02:03 AM
    Then it's an insult to your feelings on God, and whether or not it ever is to anyone else or in general is always completely subjective, right?


    It is very subjective in the sense that God is also a feeling. But that subjectivity doesn't imply we stop talking about it, or try to make a conceptualisation of whatever those individual feelings or ideas are.
  • Textual tonality of Quran and Allah
     Reply #29 - November 15, 2014, 02:12 AM
    Quote from: INcePtion on November 15, 2014, 02:06 AM
    And how does the concept of a benevolent god relieves you, if you can't be sure?


    Then why make this statement in the first place, if you cant be sure? What if it is?




    Continue thinking about it, I'm sure you can find out, if you put enough energy.

    Quote from: xtremestr on November 15, 2014, 02:06 AM
    You're contradicting yourself. All throughout the times people have defined their own personal god as per their ideology and understanding of the world, which you seem to unconsciously be doing. I'm not saying you believe in a personal god, but at the very least you have attributes that you go far as to consider an insult to any actual god figure(regardless of whether or not the god takes offense). Even when people had the personal gods of those with power shoved down their throats they'd always manage to find a picture of their own god in it(i.e. different interpretations of the Qur'an). I'd say pretty convincingly that a large amount of apostates left Islam not due to fallacies in the Qur'an and the such but due to finding features of Allah(or Yahweh, JC, w/e) that made their picture of god -that they painted with their knowledge and own personality- impossible to maintain within that religion. I, for one, was only able to seriously consider the amount of flaws within the Qur'an and hadiths after first finding within them things that I could never agree with, no matter the evidence. Simply put, even if Allah existed, I would rather burn in hell forever than pray to him, which is probably why I've never really had that anxiety lots of ex-muslims have at first.


    Congratulations for finding my contradictions

    Your experience says something Wink Thanks
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