Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


اضواء على الطريق ....... ...
by akay
November 30, 2024, 01:32 PM

Lights on the way
by akay
November 30, 2024, 09:01 AM

Qur'anic studies today
by zeca
November 30, 2024, 08:53 AM

New Britain
November 29, 2024, 08:17 AM

Gaza assault
by zeca
November 27, 2024, 07:13 PM

What music are you listen...
by zeca
November 24, 2024, 06:05 PM

Do humans have needed kno...
November 22, 2024, 06:45 AM

Marcion and the introduct...
by zeca
November 19, 2024, 11:36 PM

Dutch elections
by zeca
November 15, 2024, 10:11 PM

Random Islamic History Po...
by zeca
November 15, 2024, 08:46 PM

AMRIKAAA Land of Free .....
November 07, 2024, 09:56 AM

The origins of Judaism
by zeca
November 02, 2024, 12:56 PM

Theme Changer

 Topic: Flying horse donkeys

 (Read 11071 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Flying horse donkeys
     OP - November 17, 2014, 07:19 PM

    Quote
    The disciples went and did just as Jesus had instructed them, 7and brought the donkey and the colt, and laid their coats on them; and He sat on the coats. 8Most of the crowd spread their coats in the road, and others were cutting branches from the trees and spreading them in the road.


    http://biblehub.com/matthew/21-7.htm

    Just wondering if a certain story is copied from somewhere else, but fascinating that no one sees this later entry to Jerusalem!

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Flying horse donkeys
     Reply #1 - November 17, 2014, 07:29 PM

    You talking about Buraq?

    It could be a convergence of different traditions yes, this one and this one ...

    http://www.harekrsna.de/artikel/islam-al-buraq.htm

    Quote
    Al Buraq is an angelic female being with the head of a woman, the body of a horse and a peacock's tail, who carried the Prophet Muhammad, on the Miraj, the Night Journey, through the Seven Heavens to Jerusalem.

    Like the Unicorn, Al Buraq - the winged Horse-like creature with the head of a woman desribed in the Koran - is an instance of the Feminine Divine in Islam and was the vehicle for Lord Muhammad's Nigth Journey (Miraj) throught the 7 heavens. In the illustration above, the Prophet is shown surrounded by an aura of flame, and riding on Al Buraq, accompanied by angels.

    There are obvious similarities to the Hindu Goddess Kamadhenu, who took the form
    of a wish-fulfilling cow, often depicted with wings and a peacock's tail, like Al Buraq.




    Buraq



    Kamadhenu
  • Flying horse donkeys
     Reply #2 - November 17, 2014, 08:30 PM

    Awesome pictures Lily.  Who is the guy standing next to Krishna on the holy flying cow centaur?  Is that Mo himself?
  • Flying horse donkeys
     Reply #3 - November 17, 2014, 08:32 PM

    Wasn't the story of Buraq influenced by Greek myths about Pegasus?

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Flying horse donkeys
     Reply #4 - November 17, 2014, 08:38 PM

    Awesome pictures Lily.  Who is the guy standing next to Krishna on the holy flying cow centaur?  Is that Mo himself?


    Haha, don't know who that is Zaotar!

    Wasn't the story of Buraq influenced by Greek myths about Pegasus?


    Interesting, need now to research the link between Pegasus (which I had totally forgotten about) and Kamadhenu
  • Flying horse donkeys
     Reply #5 - November 17, 2014, 08:43 PM

    Quote
    Al-Burāq (البُراق‎ "lightning") is a mythological steed comparable to the Greek Pegasus, believed to be a creature from the heavens which transported the various Islamic prophets.

    Islamic sources describe it as a tall, white, handsome-faced, long eared, bridled male beast, bigger than a donkey but smaller than a mule. It has two wings on its thighs and its step is so wide that it "reached the farthest point within the reach of the animal's sight."[1][2]

    Some traditions also describe it with the head of a woman and the tail of a peacock,[3] similar to the Hindu Goddess Sri Kamadhenu who is sometimes depicted as a winged cow with a peacock's tail and the head of a woman.[4]

    Muslims believe that the Buraq carried Prophet Muhammad from Mecca to the seven heavens, from the heavens to the then non-existent "farthest mosque" (Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem) and back to Mecca during the Isra and Mi'raj or "Night Journey".

    During his visit to the heavens, prior to meeting with Allah, Muhammad met with various prophets, including Musa (Moses) who allegedly wept because there would be more Muslims in heaven than Jews.[5]

    The journey is an event which is now celebrated by Muslims every year,[6] and is the title of one of the chapters of the Qur'an (Al-Isra, "The Night Journey"). Sahih sources further tell us that the event was a very literal journey and not a dream.[7]

    The Buraq was also said to transport Ibrahim (Abraham) when he visited his wife Hagar and son Isma'il (Ishmael). According to tradition, Abraham lived with one wife in Syria, but the Buraq would transport him in the morning to Mecca to see his family there, and take him back in the evening to his Syrian wife.[8]


    http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Buraq

    Quote
    This is a pegasus:
    (Clicky for piccy!)

    It's a creature from Greek mythology...

    These are two early Islamic depictions of Mohammed on buraq (notice how the face of Mohammeds is not drawn)

    (Clicky for piccy!) (Clicky for piccy!)

    The interesing part of the two paintings are the TAILS.
    In one picture buraq has a cow's tail, in the other a peacock's tail. Also look at the hoofs: They are split,like in a cow...


    This is telling us something about were the idea was taken from:

    (Clicky for piccy!)

    The Hindi Goddess Shri Kamadhenu is sometimes depicted as a cow, but also as a winged cow with a peacock's tail and the head of a woman,and a crown.

    The Greek and the Indian mythology got mixed together, and we get a horse, instead of a cow,with a cow's or a peacock tail, and a crowned woman's head.

    It seems Mohammed,not content to be the "fulfilment" of Judaeism and Christianity, is also saying that he can ride on Hindu godesses.


    http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=12628#p179195
  • Flying horse donkeys
     Reply #6 - November 17, 2014, 08:51 PM

    Quote
    The poet Hesiod presents a folk etymology of the name Pegasus as derived from πηγή pēgē "spring, well": "the pegai of Okeanos, where he was born."[2]

    A proposed etymology of the name is Luwian pihassas, meaning "lightning", and Pihassassi, a local Luwian-Hittite name in southern Cilicia of a weather god represented with thunder and lightning. The proponents of this etymology adduce Pegasus' role, reported as early as Hesiod, as bringer of thunderbolts to Zeus. It was first suggested in 1952 and remains widely accepted,[3] but Robin Lane Fox (2009) has criticized it as implausible.[4]


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pegasus#Etymology

    Quote
    Kamadhenu is often addressed by the proper name Surabhi, which is also used as a synonym for an ordinary cow.[1] Professor Jacobi considers the name Surabhi—"the fragrant one"—to have originated from the peculiar smell of cows.[2] According to the Monier Williams Sanskrit–English Dictionary (1899), Surabhi means fragrant, charming, pleasing, as well as cow and earth. It can specifically refer to the divine cow Kamadhenu, the mother of cattle who is also sometimes described as a Matrika ("mother") goddess.[3] Other proper names attributed to Kamadhenu are Sabala ("the spotted one") and Kapila ("the red one").[4]

    The epithets "Kamadhenu", "Kamaduh" (कामदुह्) and "Kamaduha" (कामदुहा) literally mean the cow "from whom all that is desired is drawn"—"the cow of plenty".[4][5] In the Mahabharata and Devi Bhagavata Purana, in the context of the birth of Bhishma, the cow Nandini is given the epithet Kamadhenu.[6] In other instances, Nandini is described as the cow-daughter of Surabhi-Kamadhenu. The scholar Vettam Mani considers Nandini and Surabhi to be synonyms of Kamadhenu.[1]


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamadhenu#Etymology

    The bits in bold are interested because they suggest a source for things; a spring; from whom all that is desired is drawn; the cow of plenty.

    I reckon it is a merger over time at least mythologically.

  • Flying horse donkeys
     Reply #7 - November 17, 2014, 09:18 PM

    http://biblehub.com/matthew/21-7.htm

    Quote
    The disciples went and did just as Jesus had instructed them, 7and brought the donkey and the colt, and laid their coats on them; and He sat on the coats. 8Most of the crowd spread their coats in the road, and others were cutting branches from the trees and spreading them in the road.


    Just wondering if a certain story is copied from somewhere else, but fascinating that no one sees this later entry to Jerusalem!


    So later Mohammad visiting Jerusalem on Buraq may be a mix of this earlier story of Jesus and both the Pegasus and Kamadhenu
  • Flying horse donkeys
     Reply #8 - November 17, 2014, 09:21 PM

    I don't know that winged horse imagery has always struck me as uber-Mesopotamian, basically a direct rip-off of this:



    So my bet is that it's a mix of Jesus + donkey with the Mesopotamian creature.
  • Flying horse donkeys
     Reply #9 - November 17, 2014, 09:31 PM

    I don't know that winged horse imagery has always struck me as uber-Mesopotamian, basically a direct rip-off of this:

    (Clicky for piccy!)

    So my bet is that it's a mix of Jesus + donkey with the Mesopotamian creature.


    That Mesopotamian creature looks awfully like a cow body.


    Mesopotamian creature - Lammasu (will look this up)


    Damascus cattle breed


    Kamadhenu
  • Flying horse donkeys
     Reply #10 - November 17, 2014, 09:32 PM

    http://www.krankykids.com/cows/alphabetical/d.html

    Please see here for the cow breed
  • Flying horse donkeys
     Reply #11 - November 17, 2014, 09:41 PM

    Quote
    Although "lamassu" had a different iconography and portrayal in Sumerian culture, the terms lamassu, alad, and shedu were used to denote the Assyrian-winged-man-bull symbol and statues during the Neo-Assyrian empire. Female lamassus were called "apsasû".[1] The motif of the Assyrian-winged-man-bull called Aladlammu and Lamassu interchangeably is not the lamassu or alad of Sumerian origin which were depicted with different iconography.[clarification needed] These monumental statues were called aladlammû or lamassu which meant "protective spirit".[1][clarification needed] In Hittite the Sumerian form dLAMMA is used both a name for the so-called "Tutelary deity" identified in certain later texts with Inara and a title given to various other tutelary or similar protective gods.[7]


    Sound similar to Kamadhenu (aladlammû; Aladlammu), I dunno?

    As for protective spirit it sounds similar to this mentioned above ...

    Quote
    The epithets "Kamadhenu", "Kamaduh" (कामदुह्) and "Kamaduha" (कामदुहा) literally mean the cow "from whom all that is desired is drawn"—"the cow of plenty".[4][5]


    and Pegasus

    Quote
    Pegasus allows the hero to ride him to defeat a monster, the Chimera, before realizing many other exploits. His rider, however, falls off his back trying to reach Mount Olympus. Zeus transformed him into the constellation Pegasus and placed him up in the sky.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pegasus

    Source of 'up to the heavens'?
  • Flying horse donkeys
     Reply #12 - November 17, 2014, 09:44 PM

    Btw if y'all are interested, this is a great book which points out a terrible secret of Hinduism:  the Vedic scriptures and ancient Hindu texts are totally in favor of chomping on beef.  The sacred cow taboos arose very late, as an imposition.  The ancient scriptures, on the other hand, are constantly advocating killing and eating cows.  So awkward ... particularly since this is a crusading article of faith for Hindutva.

    http://www.amazon.com/Myth-Holy-Cow-D-N-Jha/dp/1859846769/ref=sr_1_8?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1416260564&sr=1-8&keywords=holy+cow
  • Flying horse donkeys
     Reply #13 - November 17, 2014, 09:48 PM

    Btw if y'all are interested, this is a great book which points out a terrible secret of Hinduism:  the Vedic scriptures and ancient Hindu texts are totally in favor of chomping on beef.  The sacred cow taboos arose very late, as an imposition.  The ancient scriptures, on the other hand, are constantly advocating killing and eating cows.  So awkward ... particularly since this is a crusading article of faith for Hindutva.

    http://www.amazon.com/Myth-Holy-Cow-D-N-Jha/dp/1859846769/ref=sr_1_8?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1416260564&sr=1-8&keywords=holy+cow


    Very, very interesting! Love looking at similar themes and seeing where they fit together.
  • Flying horse donkeys
     Reply #14 - November 17, 2014, 09:48 PM

    Pity Islam went against pictures and statues of animals, there might have been some cool stuff!

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Flying horse donkeys
     Reply #15 - November 17, 2014, 09:50 PM

    It's hardly surprising that flying horses are commonplace in mythology. Horses were used as steeds for transport at the time,  well-bred horses were probably highly prized amongst warriors and kings, and humans  have always had a desire to fly like the birds (Icarus?).

    Just mix the two and......

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pTPKzNmSCQ



    I am better than your god......and so are you.

    "Is the man who buys a magic rock, really more gullible than the man who buys an invisible magic rock?.......,...... At least the first guy has a rock!"
  • Flying horse donkeys
     Reply #16 - November 17, 2014, 09:53 PM

    Yep, that's why I incline towards Mesopotamian influence for the human-faced creature.  Winged creatures are pretty common everywhere.  Human-faced winged creatures, on the other hand, are pretty much a Mesopotamian specialty.  The super-weird Biblical descriptions of Angels and other heavenly creatures probably reflect this Mesopotamian influence on the Jews.
  • Flying horse donkeys
     Reply #17 - November 17, 2014, 09:56 PM

    Pity Islam went against pictures and statues of animals, there might have been some cool stuff!


    Yes, Christendom produced some of the most amazing art the world had seen at the time. Just look at the Sistine Chapel ceiling. (Mind you they had to ignore the 2nd commandment lol)

    Art in the Islamic world was all but stagnant, and has largely remained so ever since. There are only so many ways you can arrange geometric tiles or re-write the same old quranic quotes in illuminated script.

    I am better than your god......and so are you.

    "Is the man who buys a magic rock, really more gullible than the man who buys an invisible magic rock?.......,...... At least the first guy has a rock!"
  • Flying horse donkeys
     Reply #18 - November 17, 2014, 09:58 PM

    Pity Islam went against pictures and statues of animals, there might have been some cool stuff!


    At least in Persia they did draw this stuff, those pictures of Buraq are from Persian culture with the faces of Mohammed and sometimes Buraq itself later scrubbed out because it was seen as shirk and icon worshipping; a very iconoclastic act later in history than when they were drawn.

    The flames behind the heads are synonymous with halos in more Western art.

    It's hardly surprising that flying horses are commonplace in mythology. Horses were used as steeds for transport at the time,  well-bred horses were probably highly prized amongst warriors and kings, and humans  have always had a desire to fly like the birds (Icarus?).

    Just mix the two and......

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pTPKzNmSCQ





    Very good Adey, and agreed!

    Yep, that's why I incline towards Mesopotamian influence for the human-faced creature.  Winged creatures are pretty common everywhere.  Human-faced winged creatures, on the other hand, are pretty much a Mesopotamian specialty.  The super-weird Biblical descriptions of Angels and other heavenly creatures probably reflect this Mesopotamian influence on the Jews.


    Was this earlier than Greek (Pegasus) and Hindu (Kamadhenu) mythology?
  • Flying horse donkeys
     Reply #19 - November 17, 2014, 10:00 PM

    Yep, that's why I incline towards Mesopotamian influence for the human-faced creature.  Winged creatures are pretty common everywhere.  Human-faced winged creatures, on the other hand, are pretty much a Mesopotamian specialty.  The super-weird Biblical descriptions of Angels and other heavenly creatures probably reflect this Mesopotamian influence on the Jews.


    I doubt that the authors of the quran (whoever they were) would have had Mo travel to the 'farthest mosque' on a winged mouse or frog.

    I am better than your god......and so are you.

    "Is the man who buys a magic rock, really more gullible than the man who buys an invisible magic rock?.......,...... At least the first guy has a rock!"
  • Flying horse donkeys
     Reply #20 - November 17, 2014, 10:04 PM

    I doubt that the authors of the quran (whoever they were) would have had Mo travel to the 'farthest mosque' on a winged mouse or frog.


    Yup, its just that their influences surrounding them would have informed the figure that they described in the text as they developed later on in time.
  • Flying horse donkeys
     Reply #21 - November 17, 2014, 10:05 PM


    I am better than your god......and so are you.

    "Is the man who buys a magic rock, really more gullible than the man who buys an invisible magic rock?.......,...... At least the first guy has a rock!"
  • Flying horse donkeys
     Reply #22 - November 17, 2014, 10:10 PM



    Haha, very very pretty picture!
  • Flying horse donkeys
     Reply #23 - November 17, 2014, 10:16 PM

    Don't know how far Mo would have got on one of those lol

    I am better than your god......and so are you.

    "Is the man who buys a magic rock, really more gullible than the man who buys an invisible magic rock?.......,...... At least the first guy has a rock!"
  • Flying horse donkeys
     Reply #24 - November 17, 2014, 10:17 PM

    Don't know how far Mo would have got on one of those lol


    Maybe a flying lion or tiger would be better!
  • Flying horse donkeys
     Reply #25 - November 17, 2014, 10:27 PM

    Mohammed definitely had some balls to jump on a creature looking like that.  Regardless of whether it was a winged peacock bull or a monarch butterfly kitten, you wouldn't catch me jumping astride such a creature despite its claims to take me 'to the furthest masjid,' which sounds completely disreputable, particularly when you consider its etymological meaning 'place of prostration.'

    No thanks.  I'm out.       spacecraft
  • Flying horse donkeys
     Reply #26 - November 17, 2014, 11:00 PM

    What about one of these... lol?


    I am better than your god......and so are you.

    "Is the man who buys a magic rock, really more gullible than the man who buys an invisible magic rock?.......,...... At least the first guy has a rock!"
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »