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Theme Changer

 Topic: An apology from a Man

 (Read 26952 times)
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  • An apology from a Man
     OP - December 23, 2014, 07:21 PM

    I am just a regular English Guy, not a muslim, or any other religion.

    I just want to express how sorry I feel when I see my fellow men treating you women in the ways we do. It's really horrible and offensive.  Obviously its not JUST  Muslims,  that beat oppress and grossly misunderstand their women ,there are horrible men everywhere, but having read the Koran, its very very clear, that women are regarded as objects and worse.
    What is really sad (in an ironic way though  richly deserved) is the fact that these ignorant fear provoking morons that lay down the law to woman  all over the world, loose BIG TIME.
    What do they loose? They loose the incredible privilege of knowing a woman as a friend and life journey partner.

     Personally, I find, that loving a woman is like exploring a  Palace, one where the stars are present in every window and the universe is kept within. What a privilege to know another human so close.

     Don't misunderstand, I don't think men and women are equal. No, we both possess different virtues, yet it's very clear that women are frequently  streets ahead of men in so many ways. I think its evolution - women largely  know how to be with others  in tolerance without having a spear in their hands.

    when I think of the behaviour and attitudes of men it is so surprising to me that it is even possible to live with many of my species.

    I just want to say SORRY speaking as a man  - part of the sex that exercises this oppression

    Z




  • An apology from a Man
     Reply #1 - December 23, 2014, 08:37 PM

    You're forgiven..

    What a lovely thing to say.. Welcome  Zero  parrot


  • An apology from a Man
     Reply #2 - December 23, 2014, 08:43 PM

    No need to apologise, you didn't do anything wrong.
  • An apology from a Man
     Reply #3 - December 23, 2014, 10:23 PM

    Hi Zorro, welcome to the forum Smiley

    I've explored a few women in my time, but they've eventually turned out to be more like mid-terraces than the palaces you describe. But I get what you mean, and the paragraph about palaces is beautifully put. It's just the kind of stuff that has helped me become such a success in the nightclubs of Doncaster in the past, so I will store it away for the next time I am set loose in that hellhole Smiley

    Not sure if this point is worth making, but the bible is equally misogynist, as is the Torah. And that other hallucinogenic piece, by Joseph Smith, fares even worse.

    If you haven't already, tell us a bit more about yourself?

    Hi
  • An apology from a Man
     Reply #4 - December 24, 2014, 01:05 AM

    I am just a regular English Guy, not a muslim, or any other religion.

    I just want to express how sorry I feel when I see my fellow men treating you women in the ways we do. It's really horrible and offensive.  Obviously its not JUST  Muslims,  that beat oppress and grossly misunderstand their women ,there are horrible men everywhere, but having read the Koran, its very very clear, that women are regarded as objects and worse.
    What is really sad (in an ironic way though  richly deserved) is the fact that these ignorant fear provoking morons that lay down the law to woman  all over the world, loose BIG TIME.
    What do they loose? They loose the incredible privilege of knowing a woman as a friend and life journey partner.

     Personally, I find, that loving a woman is like exploring a  Palace, one where the stars are present in every window and the universe is kept within. What a privilege to know another human so close.

     Don't misunderstand, I don't think men and women are equal. No, we both possess different virtues, yet it's very clear that women are frequently  streets ahead of men in so many ways. I think its evolution - women largely  know how to be with others  in tolerance without having a spear in their hands.

    when I think of the behaviour and attitudes of men it is so surprising to me that it is even possible to live with many of my species.

    I just want to say SORRY speaking as a man  - part of the sex that exercises this oppression

    Z




    Welcome.  parrot

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • An apology from a Man
     Reply #5 - December 25, 2014, 04:45 AM

    Awww
  • An apology from a Man
     Reply #6 - December 25, 2014, 08:06 PM

    how sweet of you Zero! You never did something wrong Smiley

    And welcome  parrot parrot

    Dogs never bite me - just humans. ~ M. Monroe

    Religions seem to cause more grief than good.

    Exmuslim Chat
  • An apology from a Man
     Reply #7 - December 25, 2014, 10:18 PM

     finmad WHEN WILL WOMEN START TO APOLOGISE TO US MEN FOR BEING SUCH TEMPTRESSES AND LEADING US ASTRAY!!!  finmad

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • An apology from a Man
     Reply #8 - December 25, 2014, 10:33 PM

    Don't understand why you need to apologies anyway.
  • An apology from a Man
     Reply #9 - December 26, 2014, 11:25 PM

    Omg zero what a lovely man u must be. Where have u been all my life. Seriously tho, that was touching. If only all men thought like u. Sighhhhhhhhhhhhh ☺

    "Question with boldness even the existence of God...because...if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear"...Thomas Jefferson
  • An apology from a Man
     Reply #10 - December 26, 2014, 11:27 PM

    Jedi..... i apologise. I wont ever tempt u again

    "Question with boldness even the existence of God...because...if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear"...Thomas Jefferson
  • An apology from a Man
     Reply #11 - December 26, 2014, 11:33 PM

    Don't understand why you need to apologies anyway.


    This.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • An apology from a Man
     Reply #12 - December 27, 2014, 12:51 AM

    Thirded.

    Sounds weird and somehow condescending.
  • An apology from a Man
     Reply #13 - December 27, 2014, 08:22 AM

    /insert long rant I can't be bothered to type out about the modern feminist movement being the embodiment of all evil and demonizing all men and masculinity and how that's the opposite of what we need, we need equality not an anti-"patriarchy." Whatever that is, since no feminist seems to be able to define it, or rather they all can define it but no two of them the same way. And since when is being straight immoral? According to some feminists, PIV sex is always rape, which doesn't even make sense because PIV sex is the only way babies got made for several million years, and from what I've heard some women actually like it, even if I'm not one of them. And women have an equal amount of responsibility for their sexuality as men; if a woman does something totally consensual and then regrets it later, that's not rape, it's her being a dumbass and she needs to take responsibility for that and learn and move on.

    Women are not being "objectified", that isn't even a real thing, it's a myth like Yeti. Women might be being sexualized (is that a string of words that makes sense?), but usually, they're the ones who are doing it, not men. (Have you ever seen a man forcing a woman to put on makeup or a mini skirt or high heels outside of TV or a video game? That shit doesn't really happen in real life, it's not a real problem that tons of women are facing.) Yes there are tons of men who are super creepy and will do things like follow a woman around for a half hour or cyberstalk or do something like that. But there are also women who throw themselves at men and won't leave. (Ever heard of a woman poking a hole in a condom or lying about being on the Pill so she can force a man to stay in her life? Or even making up that she's pregnant altogether and stealing a baby? This *is* stuff that actually happens in real life.) And I'm sure that this happens in the gay and lesbian community too. We need to deal with the problem of mental illnesses that cause people to do this incredibly insane stuff, not just say that all men are the problem and all women are victims.

    So the feminist movement isn't actually helping women anymore, it's just making things worse for everyone and someone needs to talk some sense into those assholes.

    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • An apology from a Man
     Reply #14 - December 27, 2014, 01:37 PM

    WTF did I just read?  ^^^  mysmilie_977

    I'm not referring to the OP, which these replies sum up my feelings anyway:

    Don't understand why you need to apologies anyway.


    Thirded.

    Sounds weird and somehow condescending.



    But to that anti feminist diatribe from galfromusa.  

    I mean seriously?  do you live within every household that exists, have you experienced every fucking situation a woman would find herself in?  or are you just ranting from a position of privilege in which you have been safely sheltered from the very things you claim do not fucking exist?

    Women poke holes in condoms?  oh I'm sure some do, but so do men.  How the fuck is that a feminist 'problem' in your sense of the word?

    And from your fucking rant about rape, you appear to lean towards a position in which most rape is merely a woman ashamed of sex she had so therefore lies to cover it up....guess what dear sheltered one, rape occurs in which women aren't to blame....I know ...it's fucking shocking right?

    As to men don't force women to wear make up or heels....well 1, some do, and 2, is that the only way you think objectification/sexualisation is realised?  

    Making women cover up, hide their bodies, hide their faces, stay inside their houses, and all of that repressive stuff that you blatantly can't stand there and claim isn't happening, is a way in which objectification and sexualisation of females is realised.  

    There is just so much wrong in your rant.  In fact your rant pretty much sums up why feminism is still necessary.  

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • An apology from a Man
     Reply #15 - December 27, 2014, 01:56 PM

    I agree with all of that, Berbs.

    Trouble is, feminism has an image problem; it's defined by its humourless and dogmatic excesses, not by the transformative social progress it has made possible.
  • An apology from a Man
     Reply #16 - December 27, 2014, 03:21 PM

    I don't mind feminism. If anything, I would consider myself a feminist. What I don't like is everyone getting offended so easily and other people having to apologies, when they shouldn't.
  • An apology from a Man
     Reply #17 - December 27, 2014, 03:23 PM

    David, precisely. It wasn't so long ago, maybe a handful of years ago, but definitely up until my late teens that I scoffed at feminism and wanted to distance myself from it as much as possible. In my mind, there was a difference between old school feminism which secured the right to vote and all these needed advancements and today's feminism, which seemed to me like just a bunch of women overreacting and getting offended by jokes or compliments or models in the media. But, as Berberella would have guessed at the time, it was result of my own ignorance and my own privilege.

    Being a woman has worked out pretty well for me thus far. Men are pretty nice to me, and total misogyny seemed like a once-in-a-blue-moon thing to encounter and I just figured the offenders were outliers and that was that. It took me a long time to realize what I was missing, Gal. Yes, there are going to be extremely obvious gender issues that needs addressing, at least where I live, and I always knew that, but I never had the appreciation for the casual misogyny or sexism that is, unfortunately, all over the place.

    I'm pretty privileged in a lot of ways. Middle-class white girl from Connecticut. I'm told I'm not terrible to look at. I have a very polite and quiet demeanor in person, residual from my early shy years. I'm friendly, and I receive all compliments that a man might give me very well.

    So I had to tweak a lot of things. I had to switch from nursing to mechanical engineering and be the only woman in most of my classes to become acutely aware of how my capabilities and limits were perceived by students, even the kind students, even the students who weren't so bright themselves, and even the professors. I had to, once or twice, accidentally not respond appropriately to a compliment by a stranger in public and get called a bitch for it, those few times I didn't act as though a man had bestowed upon me a priceless gift by giving me attention.

    I had to jump into a Muslim community and marry a Saudi to suddenly be confronted with the sort of misogyny that I couldn't have even imagined growing up in the safety that I did, and for it to become an actual problem for me, not one that I could look at from my ivory tower or turn on and off at my whim, but one that followed me to school, followed me home, framed the way I lived for a couple years, and will still follow me so long as I live in this town and attend my university.

    So then you start noticing things more. What used to seem like an innocent comment or banter between men doesn't seem all that innocent anymore. If you press an off-colored comment a man makes about women, or even about one woman, you might figure out a lot about him. And, if you're really paying attention, you'll start to see that some sort of sentiment detrimental to the plight of women or in some way harmful to them is very common, more than you'd think if you were like me, sometimes so casual that even the person who has those beliefs won't realize it it first, either.

    Now I'm listening to the kind of compliments I get and have gotten all my life, and I'm seeing them for what they are. I can't tell you how many times I've heard: "You're not like those other girls." "I hate women who act like x and y, but you..." "I love that you're shy/polite/quiet/pretty but not stuck-up/don't drink or party/don't dress like a slut." "You look so pure/innocent." Well, alright, cool, but then there's the other side of the coin, the stuff they're not saying, or maybe the stuff they didn't even realize: I don't like most other women because they don't fit in to my ideas of what a woman should be. I don't like behavior that's not womanly. You should be shy, and you shouldn't dress like a slut, and you shouldn't be drinking and partying, and I don't like loud women, and you look pure and innocent, and if you removed any of these from the equation, you would be less deserving of my admiration, like all those other women are.

    But I can live with this. I'm still fucking lucky, gal. I have a ton of male friends who do respect me and who have been with me for a long time, some for two decades. I am considered, for now, one of the "good" women by many misogynists, at least in person, since I've rarely spoken out against them or even had the opportunity to in real life. I have to go on the internet and just become a woman without her looks to hide behind to get people to be brutally honest with me, because almost everything I say IRL is awesome, because it's coming from a cute girl, and the bar is set pretty fucking low for those, and I'm reminded of this a lot. I've not once but twice gotten employment on looks alone. And all that stuff about living in the Muslim community and being subjected to all these requirements and expectations for women? I fucking chose that, man. I decided to get married into that, I brought it into my family, I accepted it. And I can walk away easily if I want to.

    So what happens, gal, when a woman isn't as lucky as me? I've shut up and listened to how men speak about them. I've seen women stand up for themselves and just be fucking shredded. I've seen women who were considered ugly by some men and be treated as though they're subhuman. What happens to victims of violence, of rape? Oh, you better hope it's Lucretia, because if she wasn't dressed well, if she was black-out drunk, if she had a bad reputation, she will hear that she deserved it, and now that I'm listening, so will I.
  • An apology from a Man
     Reply #18 - December 27, 2014, 03:27 PM

    I don't mind feminism. If anything, I would consider myself a feminist. What I don't like is everyone getting offended so easily and other people having to apologies, when they shouldn't.


    Yes, and even though I've already talked your ear off, Gal, to quickly go back to what you seem to think feminism is about (all men are evil and blah blah), that's really not the point and only propagated by a few. Yes, there are respectful men, there are allies, and the number is growing all the time, and these men are amazing. I think now more than ever before, we're teaching each other to regard women as equals entirely (note that misogyny can come from women, too), but obviously the job is not done, obviously we have more work to do.
  • An apology from a Man
     Reply #19 - December 27, 2014, 03:34 PM

    Agreed. A lot of gender inequalities still have to be dealt with, some less glaringly obvious than others.

    .........

    Brilliantly put.
     
  • An apology from a Man
     Reply #20 - December 27, 2014, 03:40 PM

    Aw, thanks. Smiley
  • An apology from a Man
     Reply #21 - December 27, 2014, 03:43 PM

    Brilliantly put.

    Yes. Especially this bit: '.........'
  • An apology from a Man
     Reply #22 - December 27, 2014, 03:45 PM

    Cheesy I worried it was too heavy-handed.
  • An apology from a Man
     Reply #23 - December 27, 2014, 05:16 PM

    .


    Lua, back on form it seems.  Afro

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • An apology from a Man
     Reply #24 - December 27, 2014, 07:33 PM

    Quote
    Making women cover up, hide their bodies, hide their faces, stay inside their houses, and all of that repressive stuff that you blatantly can't stand there and claim isn't happening, is a way in which objectification and sexualisation of females is realised. 


    I actually thought that I had specifically said that it wasn't happening IN THE WEST (although in rereading my previous post, that is clearly missing, sorry about that). Feminists IN THE WEST don't seem to care about women in other countries, and don't talk about those women's issues. Instead you've got people like Anita Sarkesian ranting about stupid shit like video games, even tho the link between video game violence and real world violence is tenuous at best, with studies that seem to show all three alternatives: it does have a link to violence, it doesn't have any effect on violence, and it reduces violence. The actual truth probably involves a combination of factors including age of the person, preexisting mental conditions, susceptibility to outside influences, disillusionment with society, parental neglect (parents replacing parenting with letting the child play video games all day), amount of time spent playing games vs amount of time interacting with real people, etc.

    It's like the ban bossy movement in that respect: it's very nearly impossible, if not actually impossible, to isolate all the factors that might have an effect on psychological development and changes. With "ban bossy", so the evidence shows that girls' interest in holding leadership positions declines during later childhood years. Is that actually the result of being called bossy and other societal factors? How could you prove that? There are all kinds of changes that we know for a fact happen in the brain during that time, including structural changes. The neural networks that form are demonstrably very different between boys and girls and the importance the body gives to developing different areas of the brain is different.

    There isn't really a way to see if those changes are biological or societal, tho, without finding several hundred feral children who have had no interaction with any society, human or animal, or with each other (which could form a makeshift society) and comparing their brains to everyone else's. Clearly, isolating children from every other living thing isn't ethical (which is why it's called the forbidden experiment), so there's no way of knowing if it actually is societal pressure changing girls' brains.

    I'm not saying that feminism has never done anything good, or that women have never had/do not ever have problems. I'm saying the specific things that modern Western "feminists" campaign against are not a real widespread problem in the modern west, and they're not doing anything for women in other countries where women really ARE having problems; they don't even seem to be aware of the problems of women in other countries.

    The modern feminist complaint about "rape culture" in America for example. If a comedian makes a joke about raping a woman, you better believe that's going to be his last job ever. Even men accused of rape by women are believed guilty, and sometimes nothing can prove them innocent, not even a million types of evidence that the woman was lying. (As in this case: http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/u-va-fraternity-to-rebut-claims-of-gang-rape-in-rolling-stone/2014/12/05/5fa5f7d2-7c91-11e4-84d4-7c896b90abdc_story.html) But you know what a comedian can joke about? What's the one joke you hear about prisons? "Don't drop the soap." That's a rape joke, about male on male rape. And it's perfectly acceptable. And have you seen how culture treats a man accusing a woman of rape, vs. a woman accusing a man of rape?

    Yes, rape does happen. And yes, only an estimated 2-8% of the reports are fabricated. Women are not being systematically silenced about their sexual abuse and forced to endure shame and systematic minimizing of the abuse in western countries OUTSIDE OF RELIGIOUS INSTITUTIONS. And that's the one place where the modern western feminists aren't bothering to care about. They care about the workplace, they care about bars, they care about schools, they care about video games, they care about internet forums, but they don't care about mosques, synagogues, and churches. And women aren't the only ones being abused in those places (remember the altar boys?), and men aren't the only ones doing the abuse.

    Similarly pedophilia isn't just a women's problem, and it isn't just men doing it, same with incest, stalking, and sexual harassment. Yes, there are men who rape. There are women who have been raped. But there are also women who rape, and men who have been raped. In fact one of the big turning points for me was when I was talking to a religious authority figure I thought would be sympathetic about how my mother sexually abused me, and then heard my mother say from the other room "I NEVER DID THAT!" And the woman I was talking to said that nothing I was describing mattered, because it wasn't "real" sexual abuse anyway. That was the moment I realized that I was never going to get help within institutionalized religion, and that because it was female-on-female, no one cared.

    So the real sex abuse problem isn't that society is teaching men to be rapists or covering up rape. Religion is doing that, not society, and men and women both suffer from abuse by both men and women. We need to be teaching *all people* the importance of consent and consenting. Getting rid of rape isn't as simple as "teach men not to rape." It's not like men are going to a special rape arts and combined inhumanities university.

    Quote
    I just want to express how sorry I feel when I see my fellow men treating you women in the ways we do. It's really horrible and offensive.  Obviously its not JUST  Muslims,  that beat oppress and grossly misunderstand their women ,there are horrible men everywhere, but having read the Koran, its very very clear, that women are regarded as objects and worse.


    Women are not "their women". Women don't belong to men, not to husbands, not to fathers, not to boyfriends, not to anyone. Women need to be seen as in charge of their own sexuality. When something like spousal rape happens, it needs to be seen not as an abuse of the authority a man has over his woman, but as curtailing and downplaying of the woman's right to consent and autonomous sexuality. Everyone needs to be understood as responsible for their own sexuality, with the ability to give or withhold consent, and have that autonomy recognized and abided by. Then no one will be viewed as worthless outside their value as a sex object.

    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • An apology from a Man
     Reply #25 - December 27, 2014, 08:04 PM

    Fuck feminism just be a decent human being.

     finmad'But Jedi humans are the ones that are enforcing patriarchy'.
    finmad
    Hmmmmm....

    LET THE UNICORN REVOLUTION BEGIN!!!



    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Re: An apology from a Man
     Reply #26 - December 27, 2014, 10:24 PM

    I am just a regular English Guy,...

    No worries, mate. You can't help it. Apology accepted. Afro


    Quote
    I just want to express how sorry I feel when I see my fellow men treating you women in the ways we do. It's really horrible and offensive.

    Personally, I am somewhat sorry that it happens, in the sense that I'd much prefer that it didn't. However, since I'm not personally responsible I see no reason for me to apologise. Come to think of it, since I'm opposed to that sort of shit I reckon I deserve a medal and a huge bunch of flowers.


    Quote
    Personally, I find, that loving a woman is like exploring a  Palace, one where the stars are present in every window and the universe is kept within. What a privilege to know another human so close.

    Palaces are huge, overly ornate, cold, and very high maintenance. The universe is, to a first approximation, hostile to life and downright lethal. I suggest that you choose the women you get to know rather more carefully. There are plenty of good ones around. parrot

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: An apology from a Man
     Reply #27 - December 27, 2014, 10:30 PM

    ...because almost everything I say IRL is awesome, because it's coming from a cute girl, and the bar is set pretty fucking low for those...

     Cheesy True. Funny, but true. Afro


    Quote
    So what happens, gal, when a woman isn't as lucky as me? I've shut up and listened to how men speak about them. I've seen women stand up for themselves and just be fucking shredded. I've seen women who were considered ugly by some men and be treated as though they're subhuman. What happens to victims of violence, of rape? Oh, you better hope it's Lucretia, because if she wasn't dressed well, if she was black-out drunk, if she had a bad reputation, she will hear that she deserved it, and now that I'm listening, so will I.

    Also true, and not at all funny.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • An apology from a Man
     Reply #28 - December 27, 2014, 10:58 PM

    I actually thought that I had specifically said that it wasn't happening IN THE WEST (although in rereading my previous post, that is clearly missing, sorry about that). Feminists IN THE WEST don't seem to care about women in other countries, and don't talk about those women's issues. Instead you've got people like Anita Sarkesian ranting about stupid shit like video games, even tho the link between video game violence and real world violence is tenuous at best, with studies that seem to show all three alternatives: it does have a link to violence, it doesn't have any effect on violence, and it reduces violence. The actual truth probably involves a combination of factors including age of the person, preexisting mental conditions, susceptibility to outside influences, disillusionment with society, parental neglect (parents replacing parenting with letting the child play video games all day), amount of time spent playing games vs amount of time interacting with real people, etc.

    It is happening in the West. To take Australia as an example, on average one woman is killed by her partner or ex approximately every week. In my view, this counts as "problem in the West".

    It shouldn't be surprising that an activist of any persuasion would be largely concerned with what is happening in their own country. Not only is it likely to affect them, or their friends, personally but it's also the place where they probably have the most chance of getting results. This doesn't mean that they have no interest in what is happening in other countries.

    And whatever you may think of Sarkesian, AFAIK (not having read her stuff) the point that she is basically making is that if you are living in a society where women are regularly killed by their partners, providing "entertainment" which treats similar killings as acceptable/admirable/funny is not likely to help the situation, and in fact may say quite a bit more about the society than some people would like it to. On the face of it, this seems reasonable.


    Quote
    So the real sex abuse problem isn't that society is teaching men to be rapists or covering up rape. Religion is doing that, not society...

    Another way of looking at it would be that religion is part of society. If society really did have an ironclad prohibition against this stuff, would it occur to the same extent?

    Sure, religious institutions have abused their standing in an attempt to cover up a lot of nasty stuff, but so have plenty of non-religious people and institutions. Basically, anyone with the power to get away with a cover-up may well try it.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • An apology from a Man
     Reply #29 - December 27, 2014, 11:07 PM

    Sure, religious institutions have abused their standing in an attempt to cover up a lot of nasty stuff, but so have plenty of non-religious people and institutions. Basically, anyone with the power to get away with a cover-up may well try it.


    Penn State and other college athletics scandals would be a case in point here. Then again, that is more or less another religion here in the US, so heyho.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
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