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Theme Changer

 Topic: No hijab in Islam

 (Read 19095 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • No hijab in Islam
     OP - February 20, 2015, 08:23 PM

    I was telling a certain member from the forum how I argued with my parents when I wanted to take off the veil, and decided to share my argument here in case other girls are struggling with the same problem. It was a very scary experience to be honest, and I am glad I was able to argue for myself.

    It's a pretty well known fact that the Quran does not describe what veil/hijab is exactly, and only gives a vague description in two ayat in Surat An-Nuur http://quran.com/24/31 and in Surat Al-Ahzab http://quran.com/33/59, where none of them refer to the covering of hair, but instead ask the women to draw out outer garments to avoid abuse and to cover their chest. Pretty vague description.

    Instead, our understanding of the hijab and its application is derived from several ahadith that describe what it looks like.

    Most famous of them is the hadith narrated in Sunan Abu Dawood book 27 (4092)  that Asmaa bint Abu Bakr entered upon the prophet wearing a thin dress. The prophet turned away from her and said, “O Asma’, when a woman reaches the age of puberty, nothing should be seen of her except this and this” – and he pointed to his face and hands.

    This particular hadith was always used by my parents and many other Muslims when discussing whether or not hijab was obligatory. The biggest problem here is that the hadith is not strong in its validity as the isnaad is very weak. It has a broken chain of narration and is considered very weak and cannot be used as evidence in the discussion. But still it is the most popular hadith which is mind boggling.

    Instead I presented my parents with a hadith sahih that is much stronger that goes like:

    Muhammad bin Sirin said: "I asked Ubaida As-Salmani about the Ayah: (to draw their Jalabib over their bodies.) and how the jalbaab was to be worn, he demonstrated it to me by pulling a sheet of cloth over his head to cover his entire body, leaving the left eye uncovered." [Tafsir Ibn Kathir (Part 22): Al-Azhab 31 to Yasin 27]

    So a sahih hadith with an unbroken chain of narration says women should only show the left eye; Why are we not covering up our faces and doing as said in the hadith? Why are we following a weak hadith? It goes to prove that we mainly wear them for the sake of pleasing other people and the backbiting of their tongues. My parents were able to see the stupidity in the logic of the hadith and were not able to argue with me on the point.  Modesty is not covering our hair, but in the way we behave and present ourselves. My parents lost the argument with me, and were not able to come with any other argument than the fact that people would talk about me. Since I didn't really care I went ahead and took off the veil. It resulted in my dad not talking to me in a long time, but eventually he got around to it. Hopefully this can help a few others than myself.

    *drops the microphone*

    You are the Universe, Expressing itself as a Human for a little while- Eckhart Tolle
  • Hadith about hijab
     Reply #1 - February 20, 2015, 08:52 PM

    *Picks microphone up*

    *Speaks into microphone*

    *Tells Ishtar to find the deen*

    *Hides*

     Terror couch

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Hadith about hijab
     Reply #2 - February 20, 2015, 09:00 PM

    *Picks microphone up*

    *Speaks into microphone*

    *Tells Ishtar to find the deen*

    *Hides*

     Terror couch


    Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

    *brings out the leather whip*  040

    You are the Universe, Expressing itself as a Human for a little while- Eckhart Tolle
  • Hadith about hijab
     Reply #3 - February 20, 2015, 10:14 PM

    Ishtar...you forget the main point: Hijab means that you have HAYYA.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Hadith about hijab
     Reply #4 - February 20, 2015, 10:22 PM

    Ishtar...you forget the main point: Hijab means that you have HAYYA.


    I am all about hayya. My avatar is the proof  Cheesy

    You are the Universe, Expressing itself as a Human for a little while- Eckhart Tolle
  • Hadith about hijab
     Reply #5 - February 21, 2015, 12:29 AM

    Speaking of Hayya, this picture reminds me of you Jedi Cheesy


    You are the Universe, Expressing itself as a Human for a little while- Eckhart Tolle
  • Hadith about hijab
     Reply #6 - February 21, 2015, 12:45 AM

    Is truth.

    This...



    ... leads to this.



  • Hadith about hijab
     Reply #7 - February 21, 2015, 02:22 AM

    Excellent argument, very well thought out Ishtar90! dance I believe many people should (& will) benefit from the argument laid out here. It's so indicative of how people pick and choose. Discarding things just because they don't like it. So much for "We hear and obey!"

    One only acquires wisdom when one sets the heart and mind open to new ideas.

    Chat: http://client01.chat.mibbit.com/#ex-muslims
  • Hadith about hijab
     Reply #8 - February 21, 2015, 02:26 AM

    Excellent argument, very well thought out Ishtar90! dance I believe many people should (& will) benefit from the argument laid out here. It's so indicative of how people pick and choose. Discarding things just because they don't like it. So much for "We hear and obey!"


    Thanks alot PhysMath hugs

    Is truth.

    This...

    (Clicky for piccy!)

    ... leads to this.

    (Clicky for piccy!)




    Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Yup!

    You are the Universe, Expressing itself as a Human for a little while- Eckhart Tolle
  • Hadith about hijab
     Reply #9 - February 21, 2015, 12:47 PM

    I thought it goes back to a misunderstanding by the Greeks!

    Quote
    The apostle Paul wanted women to cover their tresses while praying because he — like the rest of Hellenistic culture then — believed that the long hair of adult females was the sexual equivalent of male testicles, according to a newly published study.

    Citing writings from Aristotle, Euripedes and the disciples of Hippocrates, the "father of medicine," Troy W. Martin of St. Xavier University in Chicago said that Paul reflected the physiology of his time in believing that the hair of adult women "is part of female genitalia." Martin's article appears in the spring issue of the Journal of Biblical Literature.


    http://www.sbl-site.org/publications/article.aspx?ArticleId=271

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Hadith about hijab
     Reply #10 - February 21, 2015, 12:52 PM

    Speaking of Hayya, this picture reminds me of you Jedi Cheesy

    (Clicky for piccy!)


    I am his successor!

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Hadith about hijab
     Reply #11 - February 21, 2015, 02:36 PM

    Is truth.

    This...

    (Clicky for piccy!)

    ... leads to this.

    (Clicky for piccy!)




    I thought the first led to a comic con event.
  • Hadith about hijab
     Reply #12 - February 21, 2015, 04:25 PM

    Great post, Ishtar!   dance

    I used to try to argue that the head covering was not required, although I used to be a Quranist. Grin Still, my husband in the early days of our marriage wanted me to be a full-time hijabi. I remember telling him that someone one day told me that I looked prettier in a hijab (in other words, my hair is a hot mess), and he enthusiastically agreed and said I really do. When I asked why I was supposed to wear it to be modest, he was stumped.

    We eventually agreed on a pretty lenient dress code (by Islamic standards) sans hijab and an understanding that I wasn't going to go around flirting with people and bringing great shame upon our apartment. And that worked fine. No Earthquakes in New England. The cereal didn't fall down from the sky, as he'd say.
  • Hadith about hijab
     Reply #13 - February 21, 2015, 07:43 PM

    Great post, Ishtar!   dance

    I used to try to argue that the head covering was not required, although I used to be a Quranist. Grin Still, my husband in the early days of our marriage wanted me to be a full-time hijabi. I remember telling him that someone one day told me that I looked prettier in a hijab (in other words, my hair is a hot mess), and he enthusiastically agreed and said I really do. When I asked why I was supposed to wear it to be modest, he was stumped.

    We eventually agreed on a pretty lenient dress code (by Islamic standards) sans hijab and an understanding that I wasn't going to go around flirting with people and bringing great shame upon our apartment. And that worked fine. No Earthquakes in New England. The cereal didn't fall down from the sky, as he'd say.

    It's incredibly ridiculous that a piece of fabric would make you more modest. And what is the purpose of it, if you're told you look better in it anyway? Cheesy

    You are the Universe, Expressing itself as a Human for a little while- Eckhart Tolle
  • Hadith about hijab
     Reply #14 - February 21, 2015, 08:10 PM

    Awesome, Ishtar Smiley Afro

    Great post, Ishtar!   dance

    I used to try to argue that the head covering was not required, although I used to be a Quranist. Grin Still, my husband in the early days of our marriage wanted me to be a full-time hijabi. I remember telling him that someone one day told me that I looked prettier in a hijab (in other words, my hair is a hot mess), and he enthusiastically agreed and said I really do. When I asked why I was supposed to wear it to be modest, he was stumped.

    We eventually agreed on a pretty lenient dress code (by Islamic standards) sans hijab and an understanding that I wasn't going to go around flirting with people and bringing great shame upon our apartment. And that worked fine. No Earthquakes in New England. The cereal didn't fall down from the sky, as he'd say.


    Cheesy

    Danish Never-Moose adopted by the kind people on the CEMB-forum
    Ex-Muslim chat (Unaffliated with CEMB). Safari users: Use "#ex-muslims" as the channel name. CEMB chat thread.
  • Hadith about hijab
     Reply #15 - February 22, 2015, 12:29 AM

    No Earthquakes in New England. The cereal didn't fall down from the sky, as he'd say.

    Well we have a problem right there.... Thinking hard
    I'll make it rain froot loops when I move to Boston

    Just like Johnny Flynn said, the breath I've taken and the one I must to go on.
  • Hadith about hijab
     Reply #16 - February 22, 2015, 12:46 AM

    Cheesy

    Also, Boston? For real? You'll have a ton of fun.
  • Hadith about hijab
     Reply #17 - February 22, 2015, 01:01 AM

    Only until 2 AM... Apparently the puritans and Islam go hand in hand.

    Just like Johnny Flynn said, the breath I've taken and the one I must to go on.
  • Hadith about hijab
     Reply #18 - February 22, 2015, 01:20 AM

    Grin Well...it's a cool city, you'll like it, even if just until 2. All of Massachusetts is pretty neat, actually. I go up to Northampton a couple times a year because it's just so cute. There's a bread cafe there. Bread cafe. 001_wub
  • Hadith about hijab
     Reply #19 - February 22, 2015, 01:24 AM

    Bread cafe. Yum. The only downside is that it doesn't seem much of a relief from the weather I got here.
    Oh well.
    But I think we're going unfavourably out of topic here oops.

    Just like Johnny Flynn said, the breath I've taken and the one I must to go on.
  • Hadith about hijab
     Reply #20 - February 22, 2015, 01:28 AM

    Yeah, I do that a lot. Sorry, Ishtar but the cafe is aptly named Bread Euphoria so go there if you ever get the chance. They have hot bread and mint hot chocolate and other great things to help you not even care that you're up to your shoulders in snow. Anyway, hijabs!
  • Hadith about hijab
     Reply #21 - February 22, 2015, 01:29 AM

    Meanwhile, in Indonesia...











    Danish Never-Moose adopted by the kind people on the CEMB-forum
    Ex-Muslim chat (Unaffliated with CEMB). Safari users: Use "#ex-muslims" as the channel name. CEMB chat thread.
  • Hadith about hijab
     Reply #22 - February 22, 2015, 01:39 AM

    The sad thing is arab Muslims find things like these as a way to look down on other Muslims as a lack of haya...

    Just like Johnny Flynn said, the breath I've taken and the one I must to go on.
  • Hadith about hijab
     Reply #23 - February 22, 2015, 01:42 AM

    Yeah, I do that a lot. Sorry, Ishtar but the cafe is aptly named Bread Euphoria so go there if you ever get the chance. They have hot bread and mint hot chocolate and other great things to help you not even care that you're up to your shoulders in snow. Anyway, hijabs!


    Hahaha it's okay. And omg I need a bread café in my life. Sigh

    You are the Universe, Expressing itself as a Human for a little while- Eckhart Tolle
  • Hadith about hijab
     Reply #24 - February 22, 2015, 01:44 AM

    You will have to do with øllebrød.

    Danish Never-Moose adopted by the kind people on the CEMB-forum
    Ex-Muslim chat (Unaffliated with CEMB). Safari users: Use "#ex-muslims" as the channel name. CEMB chat thread.
  • Hadith about hijab
     Reply #25 - February 22, 2015, 01:45 AM

    Hahaha I have never liked the taste of it Tongue

    You are the Universe, Expressing itself as a Human for a little while- Eckhart Tolle
  • Hadith about hijab
     Reply #26 - February 22, 2015, 01:48 AM

    I only think I have gotten it once. Wasn't a success.

    Danish Never-Moose adopted by the kind people on the CEMB-forum
    Ex-Muslim chat (Unaffliated with CEMB). Safari users: Use "#ex-muslims" as the channel name. CEMB chat thread.
  • No hijab in Islam
     Reply #27 - March 07, 2015, 02:52 AM

    There are also many that hijabs are not something to be wore

    http://www.quran-islam.org/articles/women_dress_code_%28P1150%29.html
  • No hijab in Islam
     Reply #28 - March 07, 2015, 03:00 PM

    Bread. Cosplay. "Hoe"jabs. Quranism.

    Ishtar, see what you started!?  mysmilie_977

    One only acquires wisdom when one sets the heart and mind open to new ideas.

    Chat: http://client01.chat.mibbit.com/#ex-muslims
  • No hijab in Islam
     Reply #29 - March 07, 2015, 03:24 PM

    Muhammad bin Sirin said: "I asked Ubaida As-Salmani about the Ayah: (to draw their Jalabib over their bodies.) and how the jalbaab was to be worn, he demonstrated it to me by pulling a sheet of cloth over his head to cover his entire body, leaving the left eye uncovered." [Tafsir Ibn Kathir (Part 22): Al-Azhab 31 to Yasin 27]


    That's not the source to the hadith, but to a tafsir. While Ibn Kathir is a widely respected imam, he is the student of Ibn Taymiyyah, this may cause sunni imams that are not wahhabi/salafi say that this source can not be trusted.

    The only sahih hadith I've found where it talks about covering the face are these:

    Narrated 'Aisha: [...] While I was sitting in my resting place, I was overwhelmed by sleep and slept. Safwan bin Al-Muattal As-Sulami Adh-Dhakwani was behind the army. When he reached my place in the morning, he saw the figure of a sleeping person and he recognized me on seeing me as he had seen me before the order of compulsory veiling (was prescribed). So I woke up when he recited Istirja' (i.e. "Inna lillahi wa inna llaihi raji'un") as soon as he recognized me. I veiled my face with my head cover at once, and by Allah, we did not speak a single word, and I did not hear him saying any word besides his Istirja'. He dismounted from his camel and made it kneel down, putting his leg on its front legs and then I got up and rode on it. [...]
    Sahih Bukhari 5:59:462

    Narrated Safiya bint Shaiba: 'Aisha used to say: "When (the Verse): "They should draw their veils over their necks and bosoms," was revealed, (the ladies) cut their waist sheets at the edges and covered their faces with the cut pieces."
    Sahih Bukhari 6:60:282

    But even these hadith are vague. They do not literally say that you MUST cover your face, which is the reason to different fatwas/interpretations.
    The sunni tafsir of Ömer Nasuhi Bilmen that I have says that the face doesn't have to be covered. Other sunni tafsirs I've found say something similar. One of them refers to the hadith that is mursal you mentioned, which means that the sahaba saying the hadith is not mentioned. According to the imams of the tabiin and taba-i tabiin, this doesn't mean that this hadith should be thrown away, if another hadith refering to that subject is not found, than a mursal or weak hadith may be taken.

    Conclusion: this mess called Islam is harder to understand than you think.

    Note: I may be wrong according to the sunni creed, don't get mad at me if I am.
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