Are atheism and materialism the same?

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Are atheism and materialism the same?
OP - February 26, 2015, 06:22 PM

I've noticed that apologists often attack materialism, with an argument along the lines of "If matter is everything then nothing matters". They then attack a straw man of atheism by assuming that atheism=materialism.

I've come across a pretty good discussion on Philosophy SE, I will quote the most relevant parts:

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This is incorrect. Atheism is a view about the existence of God. Materialism is a metaphysical view about the kinds of substance that exist. Specifically, atheism is the claim that there does not exist a God, or Gods, in the style of the major religions. Materialism is the claim that the only substance that exists is the kind posited by our best theories of physics. Neither one necessarily implies the truth or falsity of the other.

Here's why they don't imply each other. Suppose some kind of atheism is true. So God doesn't exist. This is entirely compatible with physicalism being false - there could be some other kind of substance in the world, say ectoplasmic goo, that we haven't discovered yet. So atheism can be true while materialism false. On the other hand, suppose that materialism is true. Then the only substance that exists is the kind posited by our best physics. But then there are two ways theism can be true.

(i) God is some kind of super powerful physical object,

or (ii) God is not the kind of thing composed of substances at all - rather God is more like mathematical objects, which exist, yet don't have a definite 'substance' to them. Either one of these options is compatible with theism (and there may be more!). So materialism doesn't imply atheism.

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An atheist may hold to materialism but so can a theist. The nature of what types of material there exist does not influence what types immaterial exist (Which God are usually held to be).

Or in other words, the types of physical that exist, do not preclude what types of non physical exist. It is not incoherent to believe nothing Physical / Material transcends the known universe and still believe that something immaterial transcends the universe.

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Being an atheist does not imply a materialistic worldview, it simply means one does not believe in (a) God.

Having said that, I think an atheist would likely have a materialist worldview simply because the same thing that caused an atheist to deny the existence of God (lack of evidence for this thing existing in another realm) would lead to a denial of dualism. However, this is not required by the definition.

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Are atheism and materialism the same?
Reply #1 - February 26, 2015, 06:36 PM

.

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Reply #2 - February 26, 2015, 06:47 PM

At my Christian college, my computer science and psychology teachers were non-dualists and believe The mind (or soul) is a product of brain activity. This seems very close to materialism. They believed in an afterlife that is possible only through the resurrection and reconstitution of the body.

On the other hand, some Buddhists are technically atheists while believing in the law of karma and rebirth.

The most common term I hear regarding atheism is naturalism. I'm not quite sure if that's the exact same thing as materialism. (The natural world is all that exists vs. matter is all that exists)

It does seem like atheism and naturalism are conflated a lot. When people say atheism is not at all a worldview, I tend to think that's a bit disingenuous because it might be true of atheism in its purest definition but it almost always seems to imply taking on a worldview of naturalism.

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Reply #3 - February 26, 2015, 07:18 PM

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The most common term I hear regarding atheism is naturalism. I'm not quite sure if that's the exact same thing as materialism.

Hmm, It took me a while to think about this. I think that whilst materialism and naturalism are quite close, there is a subtle difference. Materialism is a sufficient but not necessary condition for naturalism.

That is to say, if materialism is wrong, naturalism isn't necessarily wrong. On the other hand, naturalism would be true given the truth of materialism. Naturalism doesn't presuppose materialism.

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It does seem like atheism and naturalism are conflated a lot. When people say atheism is not at all a worldview, I tend to think that's a bit disingenuous because it might be true of atheism in its purest definition but it almost always seems to imply taking on a worldview of naturalism.

This is trickier than it first looks. It not only depends upon how "atheism" is defined, but also how "worldview" is defined. If worldview is defined as a position on the conception of the world and how we interact with it, I could sketch an argument that runs counter to "naturalism being a worldview".

The tl;dr version of metaphysical naturalism is that supernaturalism is false. That's all that metaphysical naturalism entails. It doesn't say anything comprehensive on ethics, politics and other factors which may constitute a worldview. For instance, some naturalists can be moral realists whilst others are ethical nihilists. I'm not sure how one could claim to be an ethical nihilist on Christianity for instance.

If supernaturalism is false, this only tells us that certain models of morality etc.. are wrong. It doesn't necessarily tell us which models to choose from the remaining "true" ones or that truth is favourable to falsity.

Yes, naturalism can be a worldview but it would involve some extrapolation from specified metaphysical naturalism.

Nonetheless, I really laugh at those circlejerk "omgerd science therefore everything religious is stupid" anti-theists who are adamant about their position not being a worldview.

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Reply #4 - February 27, 2015, 08:40 AM

I think the category "supernatural" is a mistake. The supernatural was invented in the middle ages - before that the gods were part of the universe.

The greeks with the atomic theory were the beginnings of separating the world into material and spiritual.

So yes materialism is atheism.

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How did people of the medieval period explain physical phenomena, such as eclipses or the distribution of land and water on the globe? What creatures did they think they might encounter: angels, devils, witches, dogheaded people? This fascinating book explores the ways in which medieval people categorized the world, concentrating on the division between the natural and the supernatural and showing how the idea of the supernatural came to be invented in the Middle Ages. Robert Bartlett examines how theologians and others sought to draw lines between the natural, the miraculous, the marvelous and the monstrous, and the many conceptual problems they encountered as they did so. The final chapter explores the extraordinary thought-world of Roger Bacon as a case study exemplifying these issues. By recovering the mentalities of medieval writers and thinkers the book raises the critical question of how we deal with beliefs we no longer share.

Fascinating study of the invention of the supernatural in the Middle Ages
By one of Europe's leading medieval historians
Essential reading for scholars and students of medieval history and medieval studies

http://www.cambridge.org/us/academic/subjects/history/european-history-1000-1450/natural-and-supernatural-middle-ages

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Reply #5 - February 27, 2015, 08:46 AM

The OP continues

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then nothing matters

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I think that there is only one way to science – or to philosophy, for that matter: to meet a problem, to see its beauty and fall in love with it; to get married to it and to live with it happily, till death do ye part – unless you should meet another and even more fascinating problem or unless, indeed, you should obtain a solution.

But even if you do obtain a solution, you may then discover, to your delight, the existence of a whole family of enchanting, though perhaps difficult, problem children, for whose welfare you may work, with a purpose, to the end of your days.

Karl R. Popper

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

A.A. Milne,

"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
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Reply #6 - February 27, 2015, 09:14 AM

Quote from: moi's argument
1. The supernatural was invented
2. The Greeks were at the beginnings of separating the world into material and spiritual
c. materialism is atheism

That's a non sequitur.

Do also note that OP specifically argues against atheism=materialism.

We aren't talking about Greek/middle age belief, we are talking about the theistic belief of now. Definitions of God change over time, and the current one is supernatural.

Atheism is a position on the existence of a deity (deities) whilst materialism is a metaphysical position on what substance exists.

If one doesn't believe in God, that doesn't affirm the physicalists position. The only thing it affirms is that they don't believe in God.

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Reply #7 - February 27, 2015, 10:01 AM

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on atheism one can still be a property dualist, you can't be a dualist on materialism.

What is this dual part that an atheist can believe in? Surely it is a type of supernaturalism that doesn't include gods or a monogod.

Which means buddhists taoists etc are not actually atheists.

Not believing in gods surely also includes all types of god entities and woo and things that go bump in the night?

Atheist=mononaturalists.

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

A.A. Milne,

"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
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Reply #8 - February 27, 2015, 10:08 AM

A rectification of my previous comment: property dualism wasn't a good example. Property dualism can be a form of emergent materialism. A better example would have been substance dualism, which isn't inconsistent with atheism but they aren't natural bedfellows. Substance dualism tends to be a popular belief with those who are religious.

I really don't know how to explain it any clearer moi. Atheism is a position on God, materialism is a metaphysical position on what substance exists. Not believing in God doesn't affirm materialism, as one may very well believe that substance beyond what our best theories of physics tells us, exists.

Yes, it's plausible that an atheist may be a materialist, but do note that correlation doesn't equal causation. There is nothing in the definition of atheism (not believing in God) that forces one to become a materialist.

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Reply #9 - February 27, 2015, 10:17 AM

edit: wrong thread.

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Reply #10 - February 27, 2015, 10:41 AM

It isn't force, it is to do with the Popper quote I made - wanting to seek, puzzling out.

If an atheist has concluded the gods didn't do it, have they not started on a pathway to work out what did?

And naturalist concepts to me look like to be definitely in the right direction!

Maybe this is a problem with logic, as zeno pointed out, probably related to time and evolution and development.

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

A.A. Milne,

"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
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Reply #11 - February 27, 2015, 10:42 AM

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And naturalist concepts to me look like to be definitely in the right direction!

Worth noting that naturalism isn't materialism either

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Reply #12 - February 28, 2015, 06:17 PM

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Are atheism and materialism the same?

No

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Reply #13 - February 28, 2015, 06:18 PM

Thanks for the amazing input, PhysioMath.

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Reply #14 - February 28, 2015, 06:24 PM

Always, Quaternion.

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Reply #15 - February 28, 2015, 10:20 PM

Quote from: Qtian on February 26, 2015, 07:18 PM
This is trickier than it first looks. It not only depends upon how "atheism" is defined, but also how "worldview" is defined. If worldview is defined as a position on the conception of the world and how we interact with it, I could sketch an argument that runs counter to "naturalism being a worldview".

The tl;dr version of metaphysical naturalism is that supernaturalism is false. That's all that metaphysical naturalism entails. It doesn't say anything comprehensive on ethics, politics and other factors which may constitute a worldview. For instance, some naturalists can be moral realists whilst others are ethical nihilists. I'm not sure how one could claim to be an ethical nihilist on Christianity for instance.
If supernaturalism is false, this only tells us that certain models of morality etc.. are wrong. It doesn't necessarily tell us which models to choose from the remaining "true" ones or that truth is favourable to falsity.

Yes, naturalism can be a worldview but it would involve some extrapolation from specified metaphysical naturalism.

Yeah I meant atheism in it's modern use is not always is not always just the simple negative claim of lack of belief in God but also seems to imply a positive claim of naturalism, which in fact is a metaphysical worldview.

I've always been confused with the meaning of supernatural. If it can be tested and verified to exist, wouldn't any entity like a ghost or God be considered part of the natural order? People who espouse dualism talk about how consciousness could exist at some quantum level and still be present in the absence of a working brain. If something like that were discovered, ghosts and souls would be proven but wouldn't be supernatural; merely natural.

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Reply #16 - March 01, 2015, 02:32 AM

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If it can be tested and verified to exist, wouldn't any entity like a ghost or God be considered part of the natural order?

Yes but by definition these exist in the metaphysical realm and thus cannot be measured or tested by empirical means.

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People who espouse dualism talk about how consciousness could exist at some quantum level and still be present in the absence of a working brain. If something like that were discovered, ghosts and souls would be proven but wouldn't be supernatural; merely natural.

It wouldn't prove ghosts and souls. It'd just mean consciousness exists independent of the working brain - to extend it to souls and ghosts would be to apply a definition to ghosts and souls that is not yet present. That's my take on it anyway.

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Reply #17 - March 03, 2015, 04:11 PM

Atheism doesn't equal Materialism. There are some Atheists who for example believe in ghosts, souls, karma etc
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