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Theme Changer

 Topic: Apocolyptic Prophet?

 (Read 4403 times)
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  • Apocolyptic Prophet?
     OP - March 01, 2015, 10:14 PM

    I was reading through the academic articles on Islam on this site and I think it was Shoemaker's article that mentioned this. Shoemaker argues for a view of Muhammad as an apocalyptic prophet who believed the world would end during his lifetime and was hoping to bring the end of the world about with military campaigns into the holy lands. This idea of an imminent eschatology seems to be present in the Quran itself as it talks about the moon being split and the "Hour drawing nigh."  Another example used seemed to me to almost seal the case for me. This is the beginning of sura 30:

    30:1 Alif. Lam. Mim.   
    30:2 The Romans have been defeated   
    30:3 In the nearer land, and they, after their defeat will be victorious   
    30:4 Within ten years - Allah's is the command in the former case and in the latter - and in that day believers will rejoice 

    Now there was a belief present in the Byzantine Empire (Romans) that the end of the world would come as the Byzantines would spread Christianity through conquest throughout the entire world. The Roman Empire would expand to encompass the entire world under Christianity and then the empire would hand the keys of the kingdom over to Jesus in his second coming. This idea is prevalent in many Byzantine and even Persian works of the time. In the Christian Legend Concerning Alexander the Great, written around 630, current events occurring to the Byzantine's such as huge victories over the Sassanians (or Persians) under the emperor Heraclitus after initially losing large amounts of land to the Persians were seen as a sign of end times prophecies coming to pass. The Legend, if I'm not mistaken, refers to wild people (referred to as Gog and Magog) breaking through the walls of Alexander and this probably referred to the raids of Turkish and Arab peoples at the time. Gog and Magog had always been associated with the end of days in the Bible, so the Byzantines literally thought the end was nigh and they were soon to dominate the world and hand the keys over to Jesus. Seeing this was the climate the Quran came out of, the beginning of sura 30 makes a lot more sense. In fact, I don't know any other reason why believers would rejoice when the Romans beat the Persians, as both were extremely oppressive rulers to the Arabs.

    What do you guys think? Does this lend strong evidence to the theory that Muhammad thought the world would end in his own time?

    Schoemaker's article:
    http://booksandjournals.brillonline.com/content/journals/10.1163/15700585-12341312

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Apocolyptic Prophet?
     Reply #1 - March 01, 2015, 10:23 PM

    I think you're spot on justperusing. Moreover, I believe that this sura, like many of the shorter ones, is actually Christian material which was crystallized in the Quran before being fully 'Islamicized.' If you read the rest of the sura, you'll see that there's no reason why Byzantine Christians couldn't hear this one week during their homily.

    Edit: re-reading 30 I see that there is note in 40 about 'partners' that seems a bit Islamic, but most of the surah is end-time rumination that would not have been out of place in a Christian apocalypse of the time.

    إطلب العلم ولو في الصين

    Es sitzt keine Krone so fest und so hoch,
    Der mutige Springer erreicht sie doch.

    I don't give a fuck about your war, or your President.
  • Apocolyptic Prophet?
     Reply #2 - March 01, 2015, 10:37 PM

    Thanks! I think it is Lulling's hypothesis that involves the Quran's most primary source material being a Christian liturgy. I don't see how else one can make sense of the believers rejoicing at the Roman's victory over the Persians if this does not carry with it an imminent Roman-Christian eschatology

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Apocolyptic Prophet?
     Reply #3 - March 02, 2015, 12:01 AM

    That is a great observation, Just.  Surah 30 is a rather beautiful example of imminent eschatological expectation, in connection with the Byzantines.  Traditionally Surah 30 is interpreted as one of the last 'Meccan' surahs.  But I believe it is better understood as the rising theology amongst the early believers, following Mohammed's death.  Particularly important is the emphasis on (1) eschatology; (2) ecumenical monotheism (heaping contempt on those who divide religions into sects); and (3) charitable expectation of the last day.  This is the earliest Believer movement in a nutshell.

    BUT there is a huge complication here.  Where is Mohammed?  I looked at Shoemaker's book, and he doesn't mention Surah 30 during his discussion of Qur'anic eschatology.  Why the-apocalypse not?  Well, I suspect it's because nobody has ever given a satisfactory historical explanation for why Surah 30 seems to basically cheerlead Byzantine apocalyptic Christianity, with an anti-trinitarian twist, and Mohammed doesn't appear part of the apocalypse.  That doesn't fit Shoemaker's hypothesis.  It doesn't fit the traditional Muslim view.  It doesn't fit Donner's view.  It doesn't fit Luling's view.  It doesn't fit ANYBODY's view, so far as I know, of what the Qur'an is about or where/how it was composed.

    If you look at the Tesei article I just posted in Zeca's thread on Qur'anic scholarship, you will see that this point is particularly acute (he expands on van Bladel and the fact that the Syriac Legend of Alexander, composed in 629 CE, is surely the source of Surah 18's discussion of Alexander).  IMO, it's almost a dead lock that Surah 18 and Surah 30 were composed in a similar historical context.

    By contrast with this Byzantine apocalpyticism, the early Meccan surahs seem to be pious peripheral Christianity ... per Luling, pre-trinitarian Christianity.  They don't seem to have much to do with this later Byzantine eschatological viewpoint.

    It is very hard to figure out how Surah 30, with its Byzantine apocalypse parallel to Surah 18, could relate to Mohammed's life, even on Shoemaker's theory.  The traditional scholarly explanation, derived from the traditional Muslim view, is that Mohammed just changed his mind once he got to Medina, and stopped obsessing about the imminent apocalypse, focusing more on the here-and-now.  But this is deeply unsatisfactory, particularly when it comes to explaining why the apocalypse would take the Byzantine/Alexander Legend form -- as a surah delivered in MECCA of all places.

    A better explanation, if I could speculate, would be that Surah 30 represents a slowly-rising religious consciousness amongst the Arabic speaking population of the Levant/Mesopotamia, which is copying and attempting to assimilate prevailing Orthodox Christian apocalyptic expectation, but in a much more ecumenical and broader sense (as you might expect for a broad coalition of Arabic speakers) that heaps contempt on divisive theology and attempts to unify everybody under one big, reasonable, monotheistic tent.  In this sense, it tries to copy and adopt Byzantine apocalyptic expectation, but extend it to all genuine monotheists, including its Arabic speaking audience.

    Several questions:  What relation did Surah 30 have to Mohammed?  How could such pro-Byzantine sentiment have emerged in a climate where the Arabs of Mohammed were battling the Byzantine army?  How could Mohammed possibly be so positive about the Byzantines?  Why is there no mention of Mohammed's leadership as part of the apocalypse, which instead seems to be left to the Byzantines?  Well, there's the traditional scholarly explanation ("he changed his mind after leaving Mecca"), and my best estimation:  The base Qur'an material originally had very little to do with Mohammed, and only obliquely and tentatively claimed his authority as an anonymous 'messenger' (albeit one who simply repeated the messages of past prophets).  That is because the Arabs of Mohammed were only a small portion of the overall rise of the Arabs across the region.  Only in the later 'Medinan' material would you see a movement of the Believers state their theology in a way that is assigned uniquely to a specific messenger, and which is now anti-Byzantine because it has become associated with a militarily powerful jihadi ideology that opposes the Byzantines.  Until that point, the Qur'an is actually *embarassed* by what happened to Mohammed, and does not tie itself to him as a *specific historical figure*; it hedges its bets on claiming his prophetic authority, which is why it is so damnably vague and lacking in biographical detail.

    In this sense, I think Surah 30 probably does not really reflect the historical Mohammed at all, but rather a relatively brief transitional moment in the history of the post-Mohammedan Believers, well after the archaic Christian materials that were revamped into the "Early Meccan" surahs, but shortly before they moved to a more this-wordly secular power with an Arabian prophet who gave unique messages.  That is why it lacks features that can easily be explained by any of the reigning paradigms.
  • Apocolyptic Prophet?
     Reply #4 - March 02, 2015, 12:11 AM

    I was reading through the academic articles on Islam on this site and I think it was Shoemaker's article that mentioned this. Shoemaker argues for a view of Muhammad as an apocalyptic prophet who believed the world would end during his lifetime and was hoping to bring the end of the world about with military campaigns into the holy lands. This idea of an imminent eschatology seems to be present in the Quran itself as it talks about the moon being split and the "Hour drawing nigh."  Another example used seemed to me to almost seal the case for me. This is the beginning of sura 30:

    30:1 Alif. Lam. Mim.   
    30:2 The Romans have been defeated   
    30:3 In the nearer land, and they, after their defeat will be victorious   
    30:4 Within ten years - Allah's is the command in the former case and in the latter - and in that day believers will rejoice 

    Now there was a belief present in the Byzantine Empire (Romans) that the end of the world would come as the Byzantines would spread Christianity through conquest throughout the entire world. The Roman Empire would expand to encompass the entire world under Christianity and then the empire would hand the keys of the kingdom over to Jesus in his second coming. This idea is prevalent in many Byzantine and even Persian works of the time. In the Christian Legend Concerning Alexander the Great, written around 630, current events occurring to the Byzantine's such as huge victories over the Sassanians (or Persians) under the emperor Heraclitus after initially losing large amounts of land to the Persians were seen as a sign of end times prophecies coming to pass. The Legend, if I'm not mistaken, refers to wild people (referred to as Gog and Magog) breaking through the walls of Alexander and this probably referred to the raids of Turkish and Arab peoples at the time. Gog and Magog had always been associated with the end of days in the Bible, so the Byzantines literally thought the end was nigh and they were soon to dominate the world and hand the keys over to Jesus. Seeing this was the climate the Quran came out of, the beginning of sura 30 makes a lot more sense. In fact, I don't know any other reason why believers would rejoice when the Romans beat the Persians, as both were extremely oppressive rulers to the Arabs.

    What do you guys think? Does this lend strong evidence to the theory that Muhammad thought the world would end in his own time?

    Schoemaker's article:
    http://booksandjournals.brillonline.com/content/journals/10.1163/15700585-12341312



    I have no doubt from my own reading of Qur'an and especially hadith that Muhammad thought the end times were about to come to pass.

    I think your thoughts are very interesting and after reading about the Alexander story I think you're onto something.

    When I used to read the "Rum" verses I remember the tafseer was that the Byzantines were Christians and so Ahlul-Kitab - whereas the Persians were Majoos/Fire worshipers - so Muhammad and the Believers wanted the Christians to win as they  believed in the same God.
  • Apocolyptic Prophet?
     Reply #5 - March 02, 2015, 12:32 AM

    It's interesting you say that Hassan -- I guess the question is "who were the Byzantines expected to defeat, and when?"  The obvious assumption is the Persian infidels, the same belief held by the Byzantine eschatology.  But something unexpected happened:  Persia was conquered by *Arabs*, not by the Byzantines, who instead withdrew as the Arabs revolted and rose to power across the region, ultimately conquering Persia in 651.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquest_of_Persia

    Particularly notable:

    "The Byzantine clients, the Arab Ghassanids, converted to the Monophysite form of Christianity, which was regarded as heretical by the established Byzantine Orthodox Church. The Byzantines attempted to suppress the heresy, alienating the Ghassanids and sparking rebellions on their desert frontiers. The Lakhmids also revolted against the Persian king Khusrau II. Nu'man III (son of Al-Monder IV), the first Christian Lakhmid king, was deposed and killed by Khusrau II in 602, because of his attempt to throw off the Persian tutelage. After Khusrau's assassination, the Persian Empire fractured and the Lakhmids were effectively semi-independent. It is now widely believed that the annexation of the Lakhmid kingdom was one of the main factors behind the Fall of Sassanid dynasty, to the Muslim Arabs and the Islamic conquest of Persia, as the Lakhmids agreed to act as spies for the Muslims after being defeated in the Battle of Hira by Khalid ibn al-Walid."

    So this might lend credence to the idea that what Surah 30 represents is Arab ecumenical apocalypticism, borrowed in large part from the Byzantines, PRIOR to the Arab groups rebelling, seizing power, ultimately defeating the Persians themselves.  Increasing confidence in themselves as the lead actors of the end of history, combined with increasing faith in the Arab prophet, and an ecumenical message that tried to unite all forms of monotheism.
  • Apocolyptic Prophet?
     Reply #6 - March 02, 2015, 12:56 AM

    heaps contempt on divisive theology and attempts to unify everybody under one big, reasonable, monotheistic tent.

    What might have been...
  • Apocolyptic Prophet?
     Reply #7 - March 02, 2015, 01:02 AM

    It's interesting you say that Hassan -- I guess the question is "who were the Byzantines expected to defeat, and when?"  The obvious assumption is the Persian infidels, the same belief held by the Byzantine eschatology.  But something unexpected happened:  Persia was conquered by *Arabs*, not by the Byzantines, who instead withdrew as the Arabs revolted and rose to power across the region, ultimately conquering Persia in 651.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquest_of_Persia

    Particularly notable:

    "The Byzantine clients, the Arab Ghassanids, converted to the Monophysite form of Christianity, which was regarded as heretical by the established Byzantine Orthodox Church. The Byzantines attempted to suppress the heresy, alienating the Ghassanids and sparking rebellions on their desert frontiers. The Lakhmids also revolted against the Persian king Khusrau II. Nu'man III (son of Al-Monder IV), the first Christian Lakhmid king, was deposed and killed by Khusrau II in 602, because of his attempt to throw off the Persian tutelage. After Khusrau's assassination, the Persian Empire fractured and the Lakhmids were effectively semi-independent. It is now widely believed that the annexation of the Lakhmid kingdom was one of the main factors behind the Fall of Sassanid dynasty, to the Muslim Arabs and the Islamic conquest of Persia, as the Lakhmids agreed to act as spies for the Muslims after being defeated in the Battle of Hira by Khalid ibn al-Walid."

    So this might lend credence to the idea that what Surah 30 represents is Arab ecumenical apocalypticism, borrowed in large part from the Byzantines, PRIOR to the Arab groups rebelling, seizing power, ultimately defeating the Persians themselves.  Increasing confidence in themselves as the lead actors of the end of history, combined with increasing faith in the Arab prophet, and an ecumenical message that tried to unite all forms of monotheism.


    Its a very credible and persuasive view indeed.

    These verses are regarded as a miracle by most Muslims arguing they predict the future. I must admit even back then I thought if God wanted to provide proof the Qur'an came from a supernatural source by predicting a future event - surely he could have done something better than this.
  • Apocolyptic Prophet?
     Reply #8 - March 02, 2015, 01:07 AM

    But if you read the surah, it goes on and on about people who attribute "partners" to Allah. Who exactly are these awful polytheists? Is this perhaps a dig at Zoroastrianism?

    إطلب العلم ولو في الصين

    Es sitzt keine Krone so fest und so hoch,
    Der mutige Springer erreicht sie doch.

    I don't give a fuck about your war, or your President.
  • Apocolyptic Prophet?
     Reply #9 - March 02, 2015, 01:32 AM

    If you read my long speculations about that in the other thread, I nowadays tend to think that the 'polytheists' are a theological construct, rather than referring to a specific group of people, and largely stand in for anybody who does not join the broad ecumenical monotheistic movement.  In other words, polytheist means not us.  And why aren't you us?  Because you have a specific confessional identity.  Why do you have that identity?  Because you don't grasp the fundamental truths of monotheism.

    From that perspective, the Zoroastrians would certainly be polytheists, but they are not not who the rhetoric is aimed against -- it's aimed primarily against orthodox trinitarian Christians, who can't reconcile themselves with this ecumenical Arabic speaking movement because it necessarily denies the divinity of Christ (an intractable stumbling block for ecumenical monotheism), whereas all orthodox Christians insist on that divinity.  Ironically this would include most of the Byzantines, even if as a whole they are also 'People of the Book.'  So condemning the polytheists is an argument that both accepts the Byzantines as monotheists and condemns their prevailing belief in Christ's divinity.
  • Apocolyptic Prophet?
     Reply #10 - March 09, 2015, 03:24 AM

    I was thinking of something the other day Zoater. Being the widely read polymath you are, I am sure you're aware of arguments relating to the nature of Nazism, in particular the Michael Burleigh argument that it was basically a new religion. The Nazis propaganda was always anti-communist and anti-socialist, but there was actually a grudging respect shown in much of it for the communist street fighters of the Rotfront Kaempfersbund (back in the days when the Nazis were fighting them for control of the streets). The real problem with Marxism was, surprise suprise, the Juiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice. The KPD was called 'judeo-bolshevism' etc. When they invaded the USSR, Burleigh records that some soldiers would write home things like 'Here in the workers' paradise not one of the stinking Yids gets his hands dirty with real work. Everywhere I turn I cannot spit without hitting a Jew installed in some high position.' etc. etc. In point of fact most of the real 'Judeo-Bolsheviks' like Trotsky had been wiped out in Stalin's purges of the 30's, along with almost all of the other old hands of the revolution. Despite the fact that the USSR was not a very friendly place for Jews even in the 1940's, Nazi propaganda continually harped on the fact that in fighting the USSR the Reich was somehow landing a crippling blow against Jewish bankers on Wall Street in New York. Fanatical SS leaders of the Totenkopf concentration camp guards such as founder Theodore Eicke taught their men that in terrorizing and killing homosexuals, cripples, Social Democrats, prostitutes, Gypsies, and of course Jews they were striking a deadly blow against the same enemies the Reich was fighting in France and the USSR. Of course this was all errant nonsense, a German Roma had no knowledge of or interest in the doings of the Soviet Union or bankers on Wall Street. Yet when the Nazis attacked 'die Juden' and other scapegoats like the Gypsies, Germans would immediately think of their enemies in the US, Great Britain, and the USSR, despite the fact that none of these countries was particularly Jewish or friendly to Jews more than anyone else.

    I think a similar short-hand '5 minute hate' mentality should be read into the Quran's rants against the 'mushrikoon.' At the time (670's-730's) the Arab empire was engaged in wars in Africa, Byzantine Anatolia, Transoxania, Spain and France, and India against a babel different ethnic and political groups. Ranting against the 'idolaters' could have been an easy short-hand for all of the Empire's enemies.

    إطلب العلم ولو في الصين

    Es sitzt keine Krone so fest und so hoch,
    Der mutige Springer erreicht sie doch.

    I don't give a fuck about your war, or your President.
  • Apocolyptic Prophet?
     Reply #11 - March 10, 2015, 12:32 AM

    The Byzantine clients, the Arab Ghassanids, converted to the Monophysite form of Christianity, which was regarded as heretical by the established Byzantine Orthodox Church.

    Monophysitism (the sole-substance of Jesus-the-Christ with God) as Eutyches defined it, yeah...

    But then, by the time of Heraclius (610 CE) and maybe even Justinian I (540 CE) the churches of Egypt and Syria were asserting that "Monophysitism" was an error, that Eutyches was a heretic, and that they were the true orthodox - they use the term "Miaphysite (one-substance)" for themselves today, or so I hear. And the Chalcedonians seemed to agree that THESE churches were, if misguided, not full-on heretics.

    Justinian I, with his Miaphysite queen, made ongoing attempts to reach theological union with the Miaphysites in Egypt and Syria. Then Heraclius cooked up Monoergism (sole-power) for the same purpose. Later, Heraclius in his Ekthesis downgraded this to Monotheletism (sole-will) - although that didn't take, either.

    I'm not sure I completely understand myself what I just posted.  wacko Byzantine-era Christology is hard. (And this was what I'd majored in in college - not Islam. It was STILL too hard.) I do know, though, that the smartest minds of the Byzantine Empire did their best to reach a common ground between Dyophysite Rome and Mono/Miaphysite Syria. (It was too hard for them, too, apparently.)
  • Apocolyptic Prophet?
     Reply #12 - March 10, 2015, 01:04 AM

    I think a similar short-hand '5 minute hate' mentality should be read into the Quran's rants against the 'mushrikoon.' At the time (670's-730's) the Arab empire was engaged in wars in Africa, Byzantine Anatolia, Transoxania, Spain and France, and India against a babel different ethnic and political groups. Ranting against the 'idolaters' could have been an easy short-hand for all of the Empire's enemies.

    By this time, I suspect that the term had started to be applied against the Empire's Muslim enemies. Consider al-Baghdadi today. He considers all the Shi'ites in Baghdad to "associate" 'Ali with God. Back in the 70s / 690s, it would have been VERY tempting for Kharijites to accuse 'Abd al-Malik of associating himself with God. And vice-versa, and each with their own other opponents.
  • Apocolyptic Prophet?
     Reply #13 - March 11, 2015, 11:41 PM

    Regarding surah 30, what do folks think of this tafsir:

    http://englishtafsir.com/Quran/30/index.html

    Which puts the Roman defeat at 615 CE, and the Roman victory at 624 CE, same time as the battle of badr, thus the reason for muslims to rejoice? So the tafsir goes it was a prophetic surah for that reason, if you believe it was written/revealed in 615 or before. But if it was written later, couldn't it just be vased on the chronology of historical events rather than reflecting byzantine eschaton-imminentising?
  • Apocolyptic Prophet?
     Reply #14 - March 12, 2015, 12:15 AM

    Well it could, although the Byzantine victory in 622 was jam-packed with massive eschatological expectation.  Certainly some people take the year of the Arabs (as it is called in the earliest texts -- not year of the Hijra or Muhammad) as referring to the Arabs seizing political power in the wake of Heraclius' awesome victory in 622, crushing the Persians.  The 'hijra' would thus be retroactively read into the Arabs seizing political power and spreading through the region's power vaccum, as imperial power collapsed across the region as a result of the Byzantine victory.  Heraclius' victory was widely seen as setting the stage for the eschaton. 

    When was this written?  Unclear.  Like most Near Eastern prophecies, it was likely written after the fact.  It could be that what you see in the beginning of surah 30 is a sort of Arabic monotheistic movement that is *caught up in its rise to power* via the Byzantine success, and trying to articulate its place in the world vis a vis Byzantine imperial hopes, along with its eschatology.  The movements started out by sort of tentatively emulating and restating Syriac/Byzantine religious expectations, in a way that indeterminate monotheists could accept (sans Christ as divinity).

    Or it could be that the beginning of Surah 30 was later written and placed as an introduction that gives a prophetic confirmation to a pre-existing text (the rest of Surah 30) that gives the standard, basal Qur'anic spiel on imminent judgment day.  In other words, it's a historical addition that is designed to spice up a comparatively anonymous and vague Day of Judgment message.

    What's interesting is that this alliance between the nascent Believers and the Byzantines would set them against the Levantine Jews+Persians.  I increasingly think the Qur'anic rhetoric against polytheists may have originally began as archaic Arabic Christian rhetoric against Persian power, and then morphed later into rhetoric against Orthodox Christians and (awkwardly Jews) -- also perhaps other Muslims as Zimriel says, though I suspect that would have been several decades later still.  But it seems like the Roman-Love was problematic because it soon became clear the Byzantines wouldn't let the indeterminate monotheistic movement into their confessional tent.  So the Romans and their apocalypse soon drop out of the picture, and an Arabian prophet is increasingly put into center stage.
  • Apocolyptic Prophet?
     Reply #15 - March 12, 2015, 12:51 AM

    Further evidence that Muhammad was an apocalyptic prophet.

    The hadith that the day of judgement will not come until the muslims fight a war against the jews.

    The very idea sounds ridiculous because of the sheer amount of muslims and the very small amount of jews on the planet.

    This would have sounded more plausible to the muslims when they were small in number and living amogst the jewish tribes in the Arabian dessert.

    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Apocolyptic Prophet?
     Reply #16 - March 12, 2015, 12:56 AM

    Zaotar, thanks for your thoughtful reply to my noob question. Btw I have greatly enjoyed your posts and in general the threads on quranic studies and analysis. 
  • Apocolyptic Prophet?
     Reply #17 - March 12, 2015, 01:33 AM

    Zaotar and bogart need to call in to the Jinn&Tonic show.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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