Just had a skype chat with someone. The topic started on whether or not the death penalty was justified and then went on to abortion. Curious what people think.
[02/03/2015 14:27:33] does anyone here support the death penalty?
[02/03/2015 22:35:42] Salsahavok: No
[07:49:30] Raven Lovecraft: Yes
[08:17:05] Klingschor: I personally don't like the death penalty, as a general preference
[08:27:24] Raven Lovecraft: Nor do I, but I can't say I don't think the world would look a little brighter without certian people in it. I'm not going to shed a tear if a jihadi or a child rapist bites the dust
[11:15:26] Kaplan: ok, one of the common objections i hear to it is that there is a risk that innocent people may be put to death wrongly
[11:15:46] Kaplan: but these same people also believe that there are situations where war is justified
[11:15:58] Kaplan: and in war there is always risk of collateral damage
[11:16:23] Kaplan: so in principle, they are prepared to take the risk of innocent lives being lost if the situation justifies it
[11:19:58] Raven Lovecraft: The difference is that soldiers are legally obligated to follow the laws and rules of warfare, one of which is doing what they can to ensure civilians aren't put in harms way. Obviously as you said this is something that does occasionally happen, but it's not the goal. The death sentance is applied to those who go out of their way to harm
[11:20:40 | Edited 11:20:45] Raven Lovecraft: i.e. Someone may get the death sentance for murder, but not manslaughter
[11:21:21] Raven Lovecraft: There's also the rehabilitation argument
[11:22:02] Kaplan: the point is, if you are against the dest penally because you believe that sometimes, someone innocent may be put to death, then if you are to apply that principle consistently, you must be a complete pacifist when it comes to war
[11:22:51] Raven Lovecraft: In general I prefer rehabilitation. I think there are very few people who cannot be rehabilitated and would be a danger to others no matter what
[11:24:31] Kaplan: so you believe in constant rehabilitation for the constant stream of criminals?
[11:25:49] Raven Lovecraft: If we had a real life version of let's say, the Joker, then the Joker has proven again and again that he can't be rehabilitated. But outside of comic books, in the real world, real life Joker's are very rare
[11:28:03] Raven Lovecraft: Austrian Josef Fritzl may be such a case
[11:28:05] Kaplan: that defeats the purpose of the criminal justice system to begin with, which is to deter crime
[11:28:16] Raven Lovecraft: No it doesn't
[11:29:19] Kaplan: so my punishment for murder is to receive some treatment thats supposed to do what exactly?
[11:29:49] Raven Lovecraft: Why would you have treatment? What's the situation?
[11:31:00] Kaplan: you’re the one saying rehabilitation
[11:31:48 | Edited 11:32:25] Raven Lovecraft: I'm saying it's rare that you find someone outside of comic books, a real life Joker, who simply cannot be rehabilitated, and said that Austrian Josef Fritzl may be one of those rare examples
[11:33:30] Kaplan: so you believe there are situations where it can be used?
[11:33:49] Raven Lovecraft: The death penalty? Hypothetically, yes
[11:34:55] Kaplan: two people are guilty of murder; one of them shows no chance of rehabilitation, the other does. So you send one off to treatment, the other to be executed?
[11:36:45] Raven Lovecraft: Taking a life isn't a trivial matter. We only have one life, and then that's it, we're gone. When you take a life, you're not only taking a life, you're erasing everything they could do, everything they could be. A million possible futures snuffed out before they could ever be realised. Rehabilitation vs punishment will have a profound effect on what future comes to pass
[11:37:26] Kaplan: so what do you do in the situation i posed
[11:38:09] Kaplan: i know that you’re not against the death penalty on principle, on the chance that an innocent life may be taken
[11:39:19 | Edited 11:39:27] Raven Lovecraft: It's not even about innocence per say. You do have murderers who regret what they did. You have people who's empathy is worked on to make them understand what they've done. You have people who are no longer a danger to society and want to make ammends.
[11:40:06 | Edited 11:40:11] Raven Lovecraft: There's also mental state. Where they in a state they can be held accountable?
[11:40:15] Raven Lovecraft: There's why they did it
[11:40:20] Raven Lovecraft: It's not always black and white
[11:40:47] Kaplan: there’s a million situations, the simple one I’m talking about is taking the life of another person unjustly
[11:40:51] Kaplan: so do you put the one to death and the other to treatment?
[11:41:03 | Edited 11:41:08] Raven Lovecraft: No, you put both in treatment
[11:41:27 | Edited 11:41:28] Raven Lovecraft: You can't say this one doesn't look that bothered so case closed
[11:42:06] Kaplan: you can’t also say that this one looks bothered lets give him a try, isnt there some sort of an objective diagnosis for that?
[11:42:15] Kaplan: so what exactly is the punishment?
[11:43:02] Raven Lovecraft: Point I'm making is that death should in EVERY situation be the last resort. What you're talking about sounds more like vengance. Justice is about balence. Revenge is about self gratification
[11:46:48] Kaplan: there has to be some form of gratification when justice is served, surely. But as I see it, you are not against execution on principle yes? Only an absolute pacifist could consistently oppose the death penalty on principle
[11:47:46] Raven Lovecraft: And again that's in the very rare situation where someone simply cannot be rehabilitated. Taking a life by murder is different than taking a life in defence of yourself and/or others
[11:48:21] Raven Lovecraft: Like the old "Would you kill Hitler as a baby" question
[11:48:25] Kaplan: so you don’t believe in harsh punishments?
[11:48:39] Kaplan: not really, its got nothing to do with that sort of question
[11:49:03] Kaplan: in general, you don’t stand for harsh punishments?
[11:49:12] Raven Lovecraft: Actually is does. If someone CANNOT be rehabilitated, if they would cause harm if they were ever released, it's a very similar ethical question
[11:49:27] Raven Lovecraft: They haven't yet, but you know they will
[11:49:57] Kaplan: you don’t know, maybe on the 3rd, 10th or 100th rehabilitation they might be treated
[11:50:21 | Edited 11:50:24] Raven Lovecraft: Or they could be Hannible Lector. Soon as they get the chance, back to their old ways
[11:51:45] Kaplan: yes i understand that you are for execution against psychopaths? But I’m talking about in general, you aren’t for harsh punishments?
[11:52:51 | Edited 11:53:04] Raven Lovecraft: Just because someone is a psychopath doesn't mean they're a criminal or a killer, just pointing that out. I'm not saying I'm against punishment as we'd have to define what exactly that would be, but in general I'm in favour of rehabilitation
[11:59:18] Kaplan: so if in general you are in favour of rehabilitation, it means that in general you aren’t in favour of harsh punishments for harsh crimes, whatever the nature of the punishment is
[12:02:29 | Edited 12:02:55] Raven Lovecraft: Okay, let's look at it. You have one society that focuses on punishment. When they do their time and are let out, nothing has changed. What sort of life will they have? Compare that to a society that has rehabilitation programs, where you can learn skills, get a degree or what not. The future open to the person in one society is vastly different to the one from the other
[12:04:32] Kaplan: so to confirm, you aren’t in favour of harsh punishments for harsh crimes?
[12:04:46] Raven Lovecraft: Rehabilitation is more productive not only to the individual bettering themselves and putting their past behind them but also to society at large.
[12:05:42] Kaplan: so I’m taking that as a yes
[12:06:10 | Edited 12:06:18] Raven Lovecraft: No, I'm not saying that there should be no punishment, I'm saying one shouldn't be thrown out in favour of the other
[12:06:38] Raven Lovecraft: But again, as I said before, we'd need to define what the punishment is
[12:07:20 | Edited 12:08:59] Raven Lovecraft: Just like I'm not saying I'm not in favour of police or prisons. Of course I am, but that isn't end of
[12:07:37] Raven Lovecraft: There are questions of what else can be done
[12:08:02] Raven Lovecraft: So what would the punishemnt be? Eye for an eye? A killer is killed, a rapist is raped?
[12:09:00] Kaplan: well for me , i believe hanging is a due execution for a convicted murderer
[12:09:33] Raven Lovecraft: It doesn't matter what the situation was?
[12:09:54] Kaplan: the crime was unjust murder
[12:10:21] Kaplan: killing another human when they didn’t have the right to
[12:10:23 | Edited 12:51:24] Raven Lovecraft: And the situation for it doesn't matter?
[12:10:37] Kaplan: i don’t understand exactly, what sort of situation?
[12:12:04 | Edited 12:12:30] Raven Lovecraft: Helping someone to die is legally murder, in every situation (unjustly in my opinion). That to me is very different to someone deciding it'd be fun to slit someone's throat. Likewise someone in their right mind vs a schizophrenic who can be given medication
[12:12:58] Kaplan: we don’t need to go into those sorts of grey areas right now, I’m talking about a standard case of murder, a person using their free will chooses to take the life of another
[12:13:09] Kaplan: who lets assume doesn’t want to die...
[12:13:56] Raven Lovecraft: So back to my Joker/Hannible Lector example? Or in real life, Josef Fritzl? Sure, hang them
[12:14:38] Kaplan: no we don’t have to keep going to psychopaths for this. I’m discussing harsh punishments for harsh crimes, regardless of who the person is
[12:15:00] Kaplan: you asked me for a punishment, i said hanging for murderers
[12:15:55] Kaplan: to me i don’t care if you’re a psychopath who’s raped and killed 2 children, or a “normal” man
[12:15:56] Raven Lovecraft: And I said it would depend on the situation. Joker/Hannible Lector? Hang them. Likewise someone who thinks it'd be fun to kill someone. World will be better off
[12:16:21] Kaplan: not necessarily fun
[12:16:35] Kaplan: i.e, a person murders an 85 year old to take their wallet
[12:17:09] Raven Lovecraft: Well what about Bin Laden? Jihadi John? Pol Pot? None of these people are psychopaths as far as I'm aware. I can't say I'd be against them being hung
[12:17:48] Kaplan: why aren’t you against them being hung?
[12:19:06 | Edited 12:19:52] Raven Lovecraft: As far as I know there aren't that many grey areas (as you don't seem to like them). These are people, as far as I know in their right minds, who have decided to murder, massacare, mame and kill innocent people and keep on doing it. I can't see them putting it behind them and working for a bank, settling down, marrying, raising moral children
[12:21:05] Kaplan: so when someone murders on successive counts, you don’t object to them executed? Is it the amount that matters here? Im not sure what you’re saying
[12:21:32 | Edited 12:21:36] Raven Lovecraft: I've said it over and over, it's about whether or not they can be rehabilitated
[12:22:02] Kaplan: also I’m guessing you’re against abortion as well, except in exceptional circumstances where for example the mothers life is at risk?
[12:22:08] Raven Lovecraft: No
[12:22:29] Kaplan: so you’re for it?
[12:22:32] Raven Lovecraft: No
[12:23:28] Kaplan: well i doubt you’re indifferent to it, you must lean closer to one side of the spectrum, what exactly then?
[12:24:04] Raven Lovecraft: I'm pro choice and would wish that no one I love is ever in a situation where they have to make that choice
[12:25:23] Kaplan: sure you may wish that, but to me its the underlying principle that matters, and on that count, it seems you support the termination of a life if the choice is made so?
[12:25:39] Raven Lovecraft: So...
[12:25:41] Raven Lovecraft: ?
[12:26:21] Kaplan: so on principle you support the termination of a human life
[12:26:28] Raven Lovecraft: No
[12:26:34] Kaplan: if the choice is made by the mother
[12:26:40] Kaplan: you don’t object
[12:27:04] Raven Lovecraft: Okay, before we go any further, let's define what we mean by human
[12:27:09] Kaplan: no no
[12:27:12] Kaplan: I’m not getting into that
[12:27:37] Kaplan: we can end it here. I’ve seen these linguistic gymnastics played over and over in the abortion arguments
[12:28:04 | Edited 12:29:37] Raven Lovecraft: Okay, then let me give my thoughts. I do not consider an unborn below a certian period of development a human being
[12:28:21] Raven Lovecraft: They will develop into one, but at a certian point they are not one
[12:29:28] Kaplan: the only way to justify terminating a human life is to begin getting into these semantical games. It’s the old “dehumanising” trick that one side uses to justify taking the life of the other. The parallels are striking to me.
[12:31:23] Raven Lovecraft: It's not a trick. It's a simple fact that I don't consider an unborn to a certian developmental point to be a human being. I have no problem with termination before there's brainwaves, before it can feel pain, etc. We can have a debate on if you should still be able to have one when there are brainwaves, when it can feel pain, but before then, before it's really "alive", I have no ethical difficulty
[12:32:17] Raven Lovecraft: I wouldn't have much of one pulling the plug on someone completly brain dead either
[12:36:06] Kaplan: so after a certain developmental point, you’re against it?
[12:38:01] Kaplan: (disregarding exceptional circumstances for now)
[12:40:02] Raven Lovecraft: I don't know. I would have ethical questions where before that stage I wouldn't
[12:43:18 | Edited 12:44:27] Raven Lovecraft: You could make the argument that if it's conscious and writing poetry it wouldn't matter so long as it's using another person's body against their will
[14:17:26] Kaplan: so before a certain stage you have no problem terminating what will become a human amongst us?
[14:18:22] Raven Lovecraft: Correct
[16:28:20] Kaplan: the only sustainable position of when a life is made is at the point of conception, when the egg is fertilised. I don’t think you can give me a more objective standard of “it has developed enough so now it is a human”
[16:29:16] Raven Lovecraft: A newly fertilised egg is not a human. It's as idiotic as saying I'm commiting genocide every time I have a wank
[16:29:54] Kaplan: not at all. At the point of conception is when life is formed
[16:30:20] Raven Lovecraft: So a woman who has a miscarrage should be charged with manslaughter?
[16:30:20] Kaplan: that’s not even up for debate lol
[16:30:35] Raven Lovecraft: That a yes or a no?
[16:30:38] Kaplan: no, that’s irrelevant.
[16:30:47] Kaplan: the fact is, life is formed at the point of conception
[16:30:47] Raven Lovecraft: Not it it's a human being
[16:31:03] Raven Lovecraft: If it's a human being then it's manslaughter
[16:31:17] Kaplan: whether it is or isn’t mansluaghter is completely besides the point
[16:31:22] Kaplan: that’s a strawman
[16:31:25] Raven Lovecraft: No it isn't
[16:31:40] Kaplan: the actual scientifically verifiable fact is, that at the point of conception is when a life is formed
[16:31:44] Kaplan: do you dispute that?
[16:31:47] Raven Lovecraft: Nope
[16:31:53] Raven Lovecraft: Yes I do
[16:32:10] Kaplan: ok, so tell me when is a life formed.
[16:33:21 | Edited 16:33:49] Raven Lovecraft: You're talking about cells. Cells are alive. They are not human. If you count them as human then in no way whatsoever is my manslaughter question a strawman
[16:35:37] Kaplan: so you deny that iife is conceived at conception. so at what point is life formed?
[16:35:48] Raven Lovecraft: It's alive before conception
[16:37:11 | Edited 16:39:51] Raven Lovecraft: There is life before conception may be a better way of phrasing it. The cells are alive. When sperm hits egg they are still cells. They don't magically transform into a fully formed human being
[16:39:43] Kaplan: what do you mean there’s life before conception? You know what i mean when i say life; i mean a new life, a life that didn’t exist before.
[16:39:54] Kaplan: life begins at the point of fertilization
[16:39:59] Kaplan: with the zygote
[16:41:22 | Edited 16:42:13] Raven Lovecraft: The thing you keep insisting is "alive" are cells. That's all they are. My point is that cells themselves are alive before hand. The egg and the sperm BEFORE fertilization are living cells, as is the fertilized egg. What's to special about cells being alive?
[16:41:25] Kaplan: "Although life is a continuous process, fertilization is a critical landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new, genetically distinct human organism is thereby formed” - Human Embryology & Teratology
[16:41:37] Raven Lovecraft: Same question
[16:42:20] Kaplan: well if you’re going to use that logic then there is no difference between any human at any stage, whether out of the womb or in
[16:42:28] Raven Lovecraft: Don't be stupid
[16:42:52] Kaplan: well act on your advice and notice what you’re saying
[16:42:58] Kaplan: essentially “cells are cells"
[16:43:12] Raven Lovecraft: So you're going to ignore my points about consciousness then?
[16:43:30] Kaplan: so is it at the point of consciousness that it matters?
[16:43:59] Kaplan: you’re strangled by your own logic
[16:44:20 | Edited 16:44:39] Raven Lovecraft: Brainwaves, ability to feel pain, consciousness. I've said this. I tried earlier to make the same point by saying I'd have little ethical difficulty pulling the plug on someone completly brain dead
[16:45:07] Kaplan: so is it those three attributes that matter?
[16:45:16] Raven Lovecraft: Yes
[16:46:10] Raven Lovecraft: Well, possibly. They do to me. As I said before, we could debate on whether you have the right to abortion if it's conscious and writing poetry if it's using another human's body against their will
[16:47:58] Kaplan: do you agree that a zygote is the beginning of a human being?
[16:48:49 | Edited 16:49:34] Raven Lovecraft: I'd phrase it more along the lines that it will become one, or has the potential to become one
[16:52:19] Raven Lovecraft: You realise that being pro choice doesn't automatically mean you've no personal moral objections in the case of yourself right? Someone can be 100% pro choice while knowing they would never terminate themselves no matter the situation
[16:52:57] Raven Lovecraft: Not talking about myself even if I could get knocked up, just throwing it in there
[16:53:54] Kaplan: sure, so my question is, where do you or anyone get the right from to block a human from developing?
[16:54:15] Raven Lovecraft: The legal system
[16:54:59] Kaplan: ok i think you missed my point
[16:55:13 | Edited 16:55:17] Raven Lovecraft: No, just a little humour
[16:55:22] Raven Lovecraft: Also true though
[16:55:36] Kaplan: your point about life conception, aren’t you aware that the scientific consensus is that individual life begins at conception?
[16:55:46] Raven Lovecraft: I could care less
[16:56:00] Kaplan: well your lack of care doesn’t change the facts
[16:56:24] Raven Lovecraft: I've told you my views. I've told you at what point I would have my own ethical questions
[16:56:55] Kaplan: yes you have, but I want to know if you are actually aware of what the scientific definition of an individuals life conception is
[16:57:34] Raven Lovecraft: It's not the point. The whole point of the abortion debate is can one human being have the rights of their own body taken away from them
[16:59:43] Kaplan: not necessarily, this isn’t like getting a tattoo, the point is, is it right to terminate a defenceless life
[17:00:44] Raven Lovecraft: That seems more like an argument to be vegan honestly
[17:01:50] Kaplan: *to terminate a defenceless human life
[17:01:53] Kaplan: there you go
[17:03:37] Raven Lovecraft: There are, in essence, two questions here. One: is it right to terminate what will become a human being? Two: Is it right to take away someone's right to their own body?
[17:05:47] Kaplan: so you believe that if someone chooses to do so, no matter what the situation, they should be free to end a human life?
[17:06:07] Raven Lovecraft: Are we talking my definition of human?
[17:06:43] Kaplan: your definition doesn’t matter, we’re talking about what’s objectively verifiable “life begins at fertilisation"
[17:06:57 | Edited 17:07:03] Raven Lovecraft: Life doesn't equal human
[17:07:21] Kaplan: what’s in there isn’t any life, it isn’t a kangaroo life, its a human life, being uber pedantic won’t change that
[17:07:47] Raven Lovecraft: It's not a human life. It will become one, but at that stage it's not
[17:08:41] Kaplan: so what is it?
[17:08:49] Raven Lovecraft: Just a bunch of cells
[17:08:58] Kaplan: so its “just” life?
[17:09:02] Kaplan: whatever that means
[17:09:47 | Edited 17:09:54] Raven Lovecraft: Let me put it in theogical terms, that might help. It has no soul
[17:10:04] Raven Lovecraft: It is a soulless bunch of cells
[17:10:06] Kaplan: once again, what’s objectively verifiable is this statement “life begins at fertilisation"
[17:10:11] Raven Lovecraft: It is devoid of humanity
[17:10:37] Kaplan: the textbook literature on embryology agrees on that statement
[17:10:42 | Edited 17:16:05] Raven Lovecraft: It is as the primevil ooze our ancestors crawled out from
[17:10:55] Kaplan: so however you try and define it, it doesn’t change that,
[17:11:30] Raven Lovecraft: Kaplan, my skin is alive. That doesn't mean it's anything more than what it is
[17:12:00] Kaplan: again, not the point, what’s been spoken about here is a new individual life.
[17:12:29 | Edited 17:13:46] Raven Lovecraft: No, it's not. It's an individual independent life
[17:12:31] Kaplan: And what’s agreed on is that that is connived at fertilisation. Not when “pain receptors are devloped"
[17:13:21 | Edited 17:13:56] Raven Lovecraft: Again, the point being spoken about here is individual independent life. Which a newly fertilized egg is not
[17:14:36] Raven Lovecraft: A week old embryo is not an individualy functioning human being
[17:16:58] Raven Lovecraft: Let me put it in theogical terms, that might help. It has no soul
[17:10:04] Raven Lovecraft: It is a soulless bunch of cells
[17:10:11] Raven Lovecraft: It is devoid of humanity
[17:10:42 | Edited 17:16:05] Raven Lovecraft: It is as the primevil ooze our ancestors crawled out from
[17:19:26] Kaplan: seeing that fertilisation is the beginning of the process of the development of a human being (or whatever pedantic rewording you want to morph that statement into), you believe that anyone has the right to terminate what is, to quote Hitchens, a candidate for the human race?
[17:20:07] Raven Lovecraft: No, not at all. I don't think anyone has the right to force the mother to terminate
[17:20:37] Kaplan: is that a dry attempt at humour or is that seriously how you understood what i said
[17:21:14 | Edited 17:21:19] Raven Lovecraft: Just closing a possible loophole your question left
[17:21:30] Kaplan: ok its closed, so we can continue
[17:21:47] Az Ahmed 9119: I'm I watching a war here?
[17:21:48] Raven Lovecraft: Dazzel me
[17:22:03] Raven Lovecraft: No, just a conversation
[17:22:12] Kaplan: simple yes or no
[17:22:26] Raven Lovecraft: Yes
[17:22:31] Kaplan: ok
[17:22:41] Raven Lovecraft: (y)
[17:24:33] Raven Lovecraft: It's simple enough. Does someone have or have not the right to decide what happens with their own body. Would it be the moral thing to do to force someone to be pregnant against their will
[17:25:13] Raven Lovecraft: A more interesting conversation would be my poetry thing
[17:25:16] Kaplan: its a separate life inside their body
[17:25:20] Raven Lovecraft: No it's not
[17:25:23] Kaplan: so it isn’t them per se
[17:25:35] Kaplan: well yes it is lol, thats not up for debate whether your pro choice or not
[17:25:52 | Edited 17:26:34] Raven Lovecraft: But it's not seperate. That was my earlier point. It isn't an individually functioning human being
[17:26:09] Raven Lovecraft: And it also it's the whole question anyway
[17:26:24] Kaplan: we’re going in circles; life begins at fertilization
[17:26:32] Kaplan: so by definition there is a life inside the woman
[17:26:39] Raven Lovecraft: So is cancer
[17:26:43] Kaplan: that isn’t her, its another life, i don’t know how much clearer i can get
[17:26:56] Raven Lovecraft: Okay, do you remember my poetry comment?
[17:27:15] Kaplan: if the baby could write poetry?
[17:28:05 | Edited 17:28:23] Raven Lovecraft: Can't be arsed scrolling up to quote myself. Basically, do you have the right to take away someone's choice of what happens to their own body even if what's using it is concious and writing poerty
[17:28:33] Kaplan: if the baby inside is writing poetry?
[17:28:44] Raven Lovecraft: And fully self aware
[17:29:01] Kaplan: the baby isn’t their own body is it
[17:29:09 | Edited 17:32:31] Raven Lovecraft: Conscious and writing poerty, can it use another human's body against their will?
[17:29:30] Kaplan: can what use another humans body against their will?
[17:31:11] Raven Lovecraft: Okay. Let's say that an unborn is self aware, a being we would both agree without question is a human being with their own mind, their own thoughts, their own feelings. etc. To survive, it has to use another human being against their will. Should the person who's body is being used against their will have the right to terminate?
[17:32:38] Kaplan: can it choose to use another human against their will? this just sounds like some crazy alien movie scenario
[17:32:51] Az Ahmed 9119: anyone wish to start a voice chat?
[17:33:04] Az Ahmed 9119: also I need to talk to Kaplan about something
[17:33:06] Raven Lovecraft: Well you keep insisting it should be treated as a human being, so I'm going along those lines
[17:33:44] Kaplan: it is a human being, whether it has imperfections or not, anyway I’ve gtg, will bb late
[17:34:15 | Edited 17:34:22] Raven Lovecraft: Sure. Do you mind if copy and paste this? I'd like to show a few people, see what they think
[17:34:29] Kaplan: sure whatever
[17:34:35] Raven Lovecraft: Ta. Talk later
Topic: Death penalty and abortion