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 Topic: The Big Questions debate on apostates

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  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #30 - March 16, 2015, 12:51 AM
    Quote from: Adey5 on March 16, 2015, 12:01 AM
    Usamah Hassan is a scientist and was once imam of Leyton Mosque until he urged worshippers in his congregation to grasp reality and accept evolution and he got chased out by an angry mob. So he has first hand experience of religious attitudes to those who deviate from scripture.

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/mar/06/usama-hasan-london-imam-death-threats-evolution

    Oh, it makes sense then why he wasn't hostile towards Amal.

    Ex-Muslims were the ones who drew attention to that incident and spoke in support of him.

    Sadly I think that might have further hurt his credibility in the mosque community.
    "Life is not a matter of holding good cards, but of playing a poor hand well."
    - Robert Louis Stevenson
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #31 - March 16, 2015, 02:26 AM
    One of the things that pissed me off was the tired old "This isn't an islamic/sharia country so it's not relevant" line. Do they honestly not see how preaching to your congregation, how raising children to believe this is what god wants, is problematic? I think a better question for muslims would be to ask, as islam is growing, should we do everything we can to ensure islamic norms never become the countries norms? Should we fight to make sure that, if in 500-1000 years this is a muslim majority country, there's no way islamic law can ever be applied? And if we shouldn't, does that mean they want people do be murdered for leaving islam? Either they are for it, or they aren't.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #32 - March 16, 2015, 03:58 AM
    I wonder what Usama Hassan and Maajid Nawaz feel about the fact that they have more admirers from the ex muslim community than they do from the muslim community.

    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #33 - March 16, 2015, 05:49 AM
    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on March 16, 2015, 02:26 AM
    One of the things that pissed me off was the tired old "This isn't an islamic/sharia country so it's not relevant" line. Do they honestly not see how preaching to your congregation, how raising children to believe this is what god wants, is problematic? I think a better question for muslims would be to ask, as islam is growing, should we do everything we can to ensure islamic norms never become the countries norms? Should we fight to make sure that, if in 500-1000 years this is a muslim majority country, there's no way islamic law can ever be applied? And if we shouldn't, does that mean they want people do be murdered for leaving islam? Either they are for it, or they aren't.



       That's a very good point , I would like to see that put to some of these guys
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #34 - March 16, 2015, 10:03 AM
    Quote from: olweasel on March 16, 2015, 12:51 AM
    Oh, it makes sense then why he wasn't hostile towards Amal.

    Ex-Muslims were the ones who drew attention to that incident and spoke in support of him.

    Sadly I think that might have further hurt his credibility in the mosque community.


    I was there at Leyton Mosque, during Usama's Evolution lecture. The incident and death threats were greatly exaggerated and overblown, media sensationalism at it's best. All you had at the event was one immature child aged 13-14 shouting about him apostatising and how it deserves the death penalty. Then you had that clown from Islamic Awakening afterwards making a video about how accepting Evolution makes you an apostate and under Islamic Sharia and only under Islamic Sharia that should get you the death penalty.

    Usama rinsed and exploited the fuck out of the incident to vastly increase his public and media profile and bank account. This is self-evident in how he has left his academia job to become a full-time anti-extremist with Majid you-can-buy my book-of-amazon Nawaaz. Hardly anybody knew of him before the Evolution talk. London muslims only knew him as the son of Suhaib Hasan who got one Juma a month because his dad was chairman of the mosque. Usama doesn't even have any qualifications in islam at all, so it makes me chuckle when ex-muslims and Maajid Nawaz go around calling him "Sheikh" and "Islamic Scholar". He has no expertise or formal training at all to be going around publicly speaking about Islam and giving fatwas as he does. It's ok to call out Mo Ansar for making up job title's and credentials but not them Quilliam guys AMRITE ?

    Usama departure from the mosque had very little if anything to do with Evolution, it was internal mosque politics and a power struggle between the Hasan family and the rest of the mosque. The general feeling amongst the mosque was that it was the Hasan family's business/dynasty/dictatorship and whatever needed to be done to undermine that power had to be done by the rest of the mosque. Many of the mosque committee's decisions were overturned when Suhaib Hasan went home at the whim of Usama's mum.
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #35 - March 16, 2015, 12:04 PM
    We need more Islamic discussion like this on TV.. I hope Amal stays safe, she is incredibly brave.
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #36 - March 16, 2015, 12:16 PM
    Indeed, this discussion and others on The Big Questions was different from what we've been seeing for more than a decade.
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #37 - March 16, 2015, 12:49 PM
    Quote from: Skywalker on March 15, 2015, 11:01 PM
    When anyone uses the word taqiyyah, my radars go up. Ive even seen an expert on counterterrorism use it infront of serious Washington people.


    I absolutely hate it too. Here we have a professor with a PhD in physics and maths talking about the topic. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vg5TY5CPrzk . Most of the information is exaggerated but some of it is true. However, he ends with one of the dumbest things i've ever heard: "The next time a Muslim says something about Islam that just doesn't sound right, it's a lie, it's taqiyyah". What an absolute disgrace.
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #38 - March 16, 2015, 01:36 PM
    Is it just me or do all white converts end up as fundie douchebags ?

    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #39 - March 16, 2015, 01:41 PM
    Quote from: ateapotist on March 15, 2015, 11:04 PM
    Most Muslims understand the apostasy punishment to mean leaving Islam, and not active political treason against the islamic state, so although Andalusi may genuinely have a different interpretation, it doesn't reflect the understanding of most Muslims.

       

    Andalusi doesn't have a different interpretation. He lies, obfusates and plays the victim on T.V, while spreading violent islamist ideologies off air. 

    He is one slimy scumbag.
    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #40 - March 16, 2015, 01:42 PM
    Quote from: TheDarkRebel on March 16, 2015, 01:36 PM
    Is it just me or do all white converts end up as fundie douchebags ?




    :(
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #41 - March 16, 2015, 01:47 PM
     far away hug   



     Cheesy   You're like the one convert I'm aware of that didn't go down the crazy end after converting to islam. My guess is that since most mosques and dawah efforts are funded by the saudis the people that do convert end up as salafis or some other sect of hardcore sunni islam.

    You don't really see many converts to shiism other than the ones who convert for marriage because they aren't really active in dawah.







    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #42 - March 16, 2015, 01:57 PM
    001_wub I think it was the way I converted. I was just religion shopping, figured I'd give this a try now, at least it's not Christianity, and sounded better than atheism. Cheesy
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #43 - March 16, 2015, 02:13 PM
    Quote from: TheDarkRebel on March 16, 2015, 01:36 PM
    Is it just me or do all white converts end up as fundie douchebags ?



    Hey what about me. Cheesy
    I was delighted to see the subject being discussed on 'The Big Question', it's about the only place I can think of that lends this topic a platform for mainstream TV. I would have liked to have seen more time alocated to the discussion and it was a pity there were not more ex muslims in the audience airing their views and experiences though I appreciate how difficult it might be for any ex muslim to make such public appearances.
    As people say, they do like to give the crazies air time and after what''s happening around western Europe lately I genuinely do fear for peoples safety going on this show, so I was much relived to figure out the beard of the beardo sitting behind Amal belonged only to a Sikh beardo.
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #44 - March 16, 2015, 02:35 PM
    I was recently thinking of why converts might be more likely(though not most of the time) to adopt salafism and disproportionately involved in groups like IS. I dont think Andalusi is a salafi or a jihadi, more closer to a traditionalist Islam that was dominant for most of the history of Islam. Think madhhab followers.

    Why are converts more likely to join salafism? I suspect the reason is that once an individual converts to Islam, the ones that are the most likely eager to teach them about Islam would be salafists. They can through the appearance of the convert know that they are converts, and are the ones that are the most likely to approach after prayer. They are also the quick to propose, unlike those who're more in tune with western culture. Another reason maybe lack of inoculation from salafism and the lack of ability to compartmentalize
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #45 - March 16, 2015, 04:01 PM
    Yep I can't make up my mind about that Andalusi character, I may be wrong but as far as I know he's a convert himself. I really have mixed feelings towards the guy. I've only seen him in action on two other occasions, the first where he was having a go at Maajid Nawaz on some discussion show, repeatedly calling him "A government stooge" and by his own words fulfilling the sterotypical, ranting muslim type. The other time I saw him was on a tube discussion with the Rationasier where he actually came across as quite reasonable and level headed.
    The Big Question environment can become a bit pantomime so it's only natural to expect heated tempers and heightened emotions as I result I can't judge him too harshly.
    That said it does bother me, why he like so many so called represenatives of Islam can't give simple yes or no answers. It's always something like . . . "Well it's not a simple yes or no anwser".
    I mean Abdulla, if you don't agree with the hate preacher guy, you can say, "Yes I disown this guy, his views have nothing to do with my own." Then he can go on and say something like "The reason being, my interpretation of the prophets teachings, is we should try and show mercy at all costs, that violence is only a last resort in self defence and that it only up to God to deal with dissenters after all Islam is a religion of peace, etc", much how Dr Usama does later on in the show.
    However if you don't disown said hate preacher and share his views just bloody well say it and stop beating around the bush. "I agree with him because he is following the word of god and under my religion we cannot deviate from the scripture for to do so is a sin, etc". I'd much rather a bit of honesty than all this word play although I guess the reason they won't(unless they're like Andy Choudry, who's honesty if nothing else, I appreciate) is they know it won't do anything to soften up/hoodwink the general non muslim British public.
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #46 - March 16, 2015, 05:08 PM
    Sometimes there really needs to be translators. Here's my analysis of what Andalusi said.
    1. Eventhough he rejected fgm, it doesn't mean he has the same definition of what female genital mutilation is. He probably thinks that Islam recommends type 0-1, which would be symbolical cut or a small partial cut on the skin on the female genitals., which would be unlike type 3-4: cutting of the clitoris, labia and closure of vulva. I suspect that the first type of fgm wouldn't be seen as fgm by Andalusi.
    2. He might believe in the penal code in Sharia but too embarrassed to admit it on television or as is common, whether he believes does laws should be applied or whether he believes in loopholes which render such laws impossible. Eitherway would be embarrassing. That's why 'ideal Islamic state' can be used, to dig out that compartmentalization. Andalusi called it a shibboleth
    3. Whatever disagreements there are between him and al-Haddad, he wouldn't reject those things in theory even if he'd hide behind loopholes to avoid it's application in the real world. And also, he might adopt a common islamist strategy of not backing down in face of pressure.

  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #47 - March 16, 2015, 05:29 PM
    This is the problem with journalism today. Nicky Campbell obviously thought that by repeating the apostasy question 3-4 times, he had done his bit as a nosy, inquisitive and critical interviewer. What an illusion. I mean, every single person with a functioning mind understood that Abdullah Al Andalusi was a sinking ship the moment he opened his mouth. Here you have the chance of ridiculing someone who came to a show for the sole purpose of semantics and deception, and who wasn't even good at it.

    I mean, have people become so shy of confrontation that even Al Andalusi on his bad days can get so easily off the hook? There wasn't just an elephant in the room, this elephant was masturbating with a tweezer. You just couldn't miss it.

    NC: Is apostasy a death warrant in Islam?
    Andalusi: I'ts not apostasy, it's treason

    The right follow up questions: Why is it treason? And what about (and this question was asked by the nice Muslim guy in the debate, but it was kind of jammed between two other questions and therefore Andalusi of course ignored it) FREEDOM OF RELIGION?

    But what do you think Campbell's follow up question was? Yes, "what do you think of apostasy?", therefore giving Andalusi another shot at the treason-point.

    A painful watch. I don't think people realize, after decades of Western anesthetization towards Islamic brutality, exactly how shocking that debate was. I mean we're actually talking about a religion that requires ex-followers to be killed as though it was a digression, a cough, a footnote. It's something straight out of the dystopian ugliness of European totalitarianism. It's exactly the type of idea Westerners think of when they say "never again". But because it's Islam and Muslims, this debate became what it became. A fucking feast for stupid totalitarian bloodthirst offered to you by a pseudo-critical journalist overly infested by the idea of tolerance and respect.
    Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #48 - March 16, 2015, 05:36 PM
    Here is Andalusi in a debate with Anjem Choudery
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V71gTKzH0_w&t=11m45s
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #49 - March 16, 2015, 05:57 PM
    Andalusi tried to draw attention away from the ostracization of exmuslims by bring up a stupid ass argument about how converts to islam are treated just as worse as people who leave.

    Some might get shit from their families as a result but as a percentage it is nowhere near as widepspread as the problems exmuslims face and even if it was pointing to bigoted behavior by non muslims doesn't negate the bigoted behavior by muslims.

    I felt like punching my computer screen whenever they switched over to him talking.
    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #50 - March 16, 2015, 06:10 PM
    Quote from: serpentofeden on March 16, 2015, 10:03 AM
    I was there at Leyton Mosque, during Usama's Evolution lecture. The incident and death threats were greatly exaggerated and overblown, media sensationalism at it's best. All you had at the event was one immature child aged 13-14 shouting about him apostatising and how it deserves the death penalty. Then you had that clown from Islamic Awakening afterwards making a video about how accepting Evolution makes you an apostate and under Islamic Sharia and only under Islamic Sharia that should get you the death penalty.

    Did anyone record the lecture in its entirety?

    Here's one clip of Usama Hasan's lecture:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgR-xfJbQcQ&feature=player_detailpage#t=87

    Here's a clip of Suhaib Husan addressing hecklers afterwards:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CN-nB0azHI

    I couldn't find a clip where some 14-year-old called for his death. The mosque-goers seemed very riled up, so I don't find it hard to believe that he received many death threats, and can understand why he didn't take them lightly.

    Quote from: serpentofeden on March 16, 2015, 10:03 AM
    Usama rinsed and exploited the fuck out of the incident to vastly increase his public and media profile and bank account. This is self-evident in how he has left his academia job to become a full-time anti-extremist with Majid you-can-buy my book-of-amazon Nawaaz.

    Is he being paid hundreds of thousands of pounds by the Quilliam Foundation to concoct the problem of anti-intellectualism in the Pakistani Muslim community in the UK?

    Quote from: serpentofeden on March 16, 2015, 10:03 AM
    Hardly anybody knew of him before the Evolution talk. London muslims only knew him as the son of Suhaib Hasan who got one Juma a month because his dad was chairman of the mosque. Usama doesn't even have any qualifications in islam at all, so it makes me chuckle when ex-muslims and Maajid Nawaz go around calling him "Sheikh" and "Islamic Scholar". He has no expertise or formal training at all to be going around publicly speaking about Islam and giving fatwas as he does. It's ok to call out Mo Ansar for making up job title's and credentials but not them Quilliam guys AMRITE ?

    Apparently, Usama Hasan is a hafiz, and holds an ijazah in the Qur'an and an ijazah in the hadith, which he received under his grandfather Abdul Ghaffar Hasan, who also taught Dr. Yasir Qadhi.

    Quote from: serpentofeden on March 16, 2015, 10:03 AM
    Usama departure from the mosque had very little if anything to do with Evolution, it was internal mosque politics and a power struggle between the Hasan family and the rest of the mosque. The general feeling amongst the mosque was that it was the Hasan family's business/dynasty/dictatorship and whatever needed to be done to undermine that power had to be done by the rest of the mosque. Many of the mosque committee's decisions were overturned when Suhaib Hasan went home at the whim of Usama's mum.

    I don't dispute this.

    The Hasan family claimed that "extremists" wanted to take control of the mosque.

    Maybe they were saying this to demonize whoever disagreed with them.
    "Life is not a matter of holding good cards, but of playing a poor hand well."
    - Robert Louis Stevenson
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #51 - March 16, 2015, 07:02 PM
    Quote from: Minimow on March 16, 2015, 05:29 PM
    NC: Is apostasy a death warrant in Islam?
    Andalusi: I'ts not apostasy, it's treason

    The right follow up questions: Why is it treason? And what about (and this question was asked by the nice Muslim guy in the debate, but it was kind of jammed between two other questions and therefore Andalusi of course ignored it) FREEDOM OF RELIGION?

    But what do you think Campbell's follow up question was? Yes, "what do you think of apostasy?", therefore giving Andalusi another shot at the treason-point.


    I think Nicky did a bloody good job. There was no problem there at all.
    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #52 - March 16, 2015, 07:23 PM
    Quote from: Skywalker on March 15, 2015, 11:01 PM
    Well when I saw her retweet a tweet on taqiyya...she lost some credibility..

    When anyone uses the word taqiyyah, my radars go up...


    Yep, me too.

    Amal was excellent, but I had to cringe when she threw the word "Taqiyya" around. Why oh why couldn't she just say they were being dishonest - and leave it at that - without trying to make out that Muslims in general are compelled by their religion to lie.
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #53 - March 16, 2015, 07:40 PM
    For me, it's about accuracy. No doubt, lots of representatives from the muslim community double speak, it either is because they believe in barbaric laws and are to embarrassed by saying it on television, or as is more common: they're too embarrassed to admit that they're willing to use loopholes to avoid such laws being applied...because they know it's barbaric. But that isn't taqqiyyah. It's just lying and doublespeak, no taqqiyyah and no religious reasons.
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #54 - March 16, 2015, 07:47 PM
    Quote from: Jedi on March 16, 2015, 07:02 PM
    I think Nicky did a bloody good job. There was no problem there at all.


    Do you really think that?

    I think Nicky has perfected the craft of saying something soft and hesitant in an angry and confronting way, thus emanating the illusion that he's being thorough and unwavering. He did a good job once and that was the first time he asked whether Islam condoned death penalty for apostasy. After that, it was as though he never heard Andalusi's answer and genuinely wanted to hear him repeat himself. Where were the pointed questions? Why didn't he take the conversation further? Why wasn't he interested in making Andalusi elaborate on why freedom of mind constitutes treachery?

    I mean, I'm a 100% sure that all the alarm mechanisms in Nicky's mind would go off if such a proposition, that the mind is a slave to an ideology and that emancipation from it ought to be punished with death, was put forward outside of an Islamic context.

    Only Muslims and Islam get away with suggesting that thinking in a dissatisfying way is a good reason to die. Nicky Campbell had one job and that was to put Andalusi in one of two categories:

    A) You absolutely and wholeheartedly oppose the idea of apostasy being a crime.

    B) You are a vile, totalitarian and reactionary bully whose opinion isn't worthy of respect, let alone tolerance.

    Now, Andalusi got away with being in the "oh c'mon, it's not that bad. They are traitors anyway! We should think about the poor Muslim converts, not these treacherous ex-Muzzies"-category.
    Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #55 - March 16, 2015, 07:52 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on March 16, 2015, 07:23 PM
    Yep, me too. It's a shame as otherwise she was excellent.

    But when I hear ppl throw the word "Taqiyya" around I can't help losing respect for them as they either don't know what they're talking about or they're being dishonest.

    Why oh why can't they just say 'some' people are lying little shits - and leave it at that - without trying to make out that Muslims are compelled to be lying shits by their religion.

    When I hear an ex-Muslim say stuff like that it makes me think they've been influenced by some bigoted views. It also surprises they don't think about the impact such an accusation will have on their own Muslim family and friends and the bigots looking for a reason to blame Muslims as a whole.


    I think I disagree with you, Hassan.

    Are you telling me that people like Al Andalusi and Muslims like him who partake in debates around the world, go to their mosques on fridays and, when the apostasy topic comes up, turn all apologetic and defensive? No, I'm positive, and I've seen this happen myself, that surprisingly many of those Muslims who are hesitant and wavering among non-Muslims, often are those who boast of Islam's distaste for homosexuals and apostates, for example.

    It could very well be that some sort of defence mechanism kicks in, turning these people into softballs. It could be that they are consciously marketing their religion in a pragmatic, shall I say cynical, way.
    Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #56 - March 16, 2015, 07:54 PM
    It appears from your response he did just that. Perhaps his purpose was to reveal how Al avoids answering simple questions. Nicky said its a simple yes or no.
    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #57 - March 16, 2015, 08:14 PM
    Quote from: Minimow on March 16, 2015, 07:52 PM
    I think I disagree with you, Hassan.

    Are you telling me that people like Al Andalusi and Muslims like him who partake in debates around the world, go to their mosques on fridays and, when the apostasy topic comes up, turn all apologetic and defensive? No, I'm positive, and I've seen this happen myself, that surprisingly many of those Muslims who are hesitant and wavering among non-Muslims, often are those who boast of Islam's distaste for homosexuals and apostates, for example.

    It could very well be that some sort of defence mechanism kicks in, turning these people into softballs. It could be that they are consciously marketing their religion in a pragmatic, shall I say cynical, way.


    It's not that that I have a problem with.

    It's the use of the term "Taqiyya" which labels Muslims in general as being compelled by their religion to lie about their religion.
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #58 - March 16, 2015, 08:24 PM
    We'll let the Hadith do the talking. Sounds unambiguous to me.

        Allah's Apostle said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims."

        — Sahih al-Bukhari, 9:83:17

        Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.'

        — Sahih al-Bukhari, 4:52:260

        A man embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism. Mu'adh bin Jabal came and saw the man with Abu Musa. Mu'adh asked, "What is wrong with this (man)?" Abu Musa replied, "He embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism." Mu'adh said, "I will not sit down unless you kill him (as it is) the verdict of Allah and His Apostle.

        — Sahih al-Bukhari, 9:89:271

        "(4152) 'Abdullah (b. Mas'ūd) reported Allah's Messenger as saying: It is not permissible to take the life of a Muslim who bears testimony (to the fact) that there is no god but Allah, and I am the Messenger of Allah, but in one of the three cases: the married adulterer, a life for a life, and the deserter of his Din (Islam), abandoning the community."[28]

        — Sahih Muslim, 16:4152 see also Sahih Muslim, 16:4154, Sahih Muslim, 20:4490
    You are the Universe, Expressing itself as a Human for a little while- Eckhart Tolle
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #59 - March 16, 2015, 08:25 PM
    Oh and al Andalusi managed to piss me off due to his constant beating about the bush and also his lack of intellectual honesty. How can you do sedition or treason to a philosophical concept!? finmad
    You are the Universe, Expressing itself as a Human for a little while- Eckhart Tolle
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