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 Topic: The Big Questions debate on apostates

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  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #60 - March 17, 2015, 12:35 AM
    Apparently, Usama Hasan is a hafiz, and holds an ijazah in the Qur'an and an ijazah in the hadith, which he received under his grandfather Abdul Ghaffar Hasan, who also taught Dr. Yasir Qadhi.

    A hafiz is just someone who has memorised part or all of the quran.

    One individual isn't a academic/islamic institution. Your dad or grandad having a qualification in a subject doesn't mean you have a qualification in the subject. Usama doesn't even have an undergrad qualification in Islamic Studies. He is an astronomer by training and academia which he is probably very good at.

    The Hasan family claimed that "extremists" wanted to take control of the mosque

    Which was a completely ridiculous as Suhaib Hasan himself is a hardcore salafi/wahhabi
    who has previously been exposed on BBC documentaries. Here suhaib is defending Wahhabism http://www.islamicawakening.com/viewarticle.php?articleID=1105

    Here is Suhaib Hasan saying support chopping peoples hands and wanting Sharia for Britian
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1576066/We-want-to-offer-sharia-law-to-Britain.html

    Suhaib Hasan also employs Haitham Haddad at the Sharia Council and brought Haitham into the fold at Leyton Mosque under his Chairmanship. Who is the extremist?
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #61 - March 17, 2015, 12:58 AM
    I never heard her say the word taqqiyya so I re-watched to see if I missed it. She said "Nicky he will never answer that question, he believes in a concept of tricking western audiences". Let's be honest, this does happen, especially with the dawah twats. They know full well if they're honest the number of converts will plummet, and instead take on a softly softly approach and then reveal the parts they left out after they've got their hooks in them. And it's not exactly rare to see people say one thing to a western audience and another in private/with only muslims.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #62 - March 17, 2015, 01:20 AM
    Quote from: Hassan on March 16, 2015, 07:23 PM
    Yep, me too.

    Amal was excellent, but I had to cringe when she threw the word "Taqiyya" around. Why oh why couldn't she just say they were being dishonest - and leave it at that - without trying to make out that Muslims in general are compelled by their religion to lie.

     

    Yeah. Other exmuslims I've talked to outside this forum cringed at that as well.

    FFS I wish they invited people like you, HM or any other exmuslim well versed in theology to be able to takle those slimy islamists without coming off as a bigot.
    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #63 - March 17, 2015, 01:21 AM
    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on March 17, 2015, 12:58 AM
    I never heard her say the word taqqiyya so I re-watched to see if I missed it.

     

    I definitely heard her say the word taqiya.

    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #64 - March 17, 2015, 01:31 AM
    Sure it wasn't "trick"?
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #65 - March 17, 2015, 02:25 AM
    nope she said something along the lines of " they have a concept called taqiya"

    When I was discussing it with other exmuslims outside of CEMB they all heard taqiya as well.
    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #66 - March 17, 2015, 02:33 AM
    I know for a fact that my questions were put off. I would ask something difficult and the imam would tell me I had to learn to pray first, to memorize this surah or this ritual. ¨Do one thing at a time.¨ or ¨No, no. Don't read that, read this.¨ or ¨Enough time for that later.¨ and if I insisted ¨Let me get back to you.¨ I am still waiting.
    If someone had sat me down and told it how it was I would have come out of it a lot sooner.
    So when someone says Taqqiyya is invented and it is not real and there is no such thing and it is thrown about too often, I always wonder what you call it when your imam won't come clean with you at the start.
    He waited for it to become part of my life. Because when I reached such a point, he knew he would never have to answer at all.
    I don't know what Taqqiyya is. But I don't know what you call the imam's deception, either. Is there a word for that?

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #67 - March 17, 2015, 02:34 AM
    Just listened again, I heard tricking. Though since that basically is taqqiyya I guess it's pointless to go round in circles.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #68 - March 17, 2015, 02:42 AM
    Quote from: three on March 17, 2015, 02:33 AM
    I don't know what Taqqiyya is.

    It has it's roots in shia islam. If their lives were threatened it was permissible to lie to save their lives, usually by saying they were sunni I believe.
    Quote from: three on March 17, 2015, 02:33 AM
    But I don't know what you call the imam's deception, either. Is there a word for that?



    I just find this so common, though obviously I'm coming from the point of view as a non-muslim. Is is however my experience that lying to non-muslims to add to the ranks is common place. Well, maybe not lying so much as withholding a lot of the things you'd go through and be expected to abide by so as not to scare you off. Get the shahadah first, then let them know what they signed up for.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #69 - March 17, 2015, 02:45 AM
    Yeah, see, I know the origins of the word, but I think it is being used often to describe what I experienced. Maybe the word has been hijacked to describe any deception for/by religion.
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #70 - March 17, 2015, 02:48 AM
    The word taqqiyya has been hijacked by muslim bashers to prove that muslims are dishonest and untrustworthy on the whole. It's very popular with the Robert Spencer/Pamela Geller types. It usually raises alarm bells when people hear it because it basically means when used today "You can't trust a muslim".
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #71 - March 17, 2015, 03:22 AM
    Quote from: serpentofeden on March 17, 2015, 12:35 AM
    One individual isn't a academic/islamic institution.

    Quote from: serpentofeden on March 17, 2015, 12:35 AM
    The Hasan family claimed that "extremists" wanted to take control of the mosque

    Which was a completely ridiculous as Suhaib Hasan himself is a hardcore salafi/wahhabi
    who has previously been exposed on BBC documentaries. Here suhaib is defending Wahhabism http://www.islamicawakening.com/viewarticle.php?articleID=1105

    Here is Suhaib Hasan saying support chopping peoples hands and wanting Sharia for Britian
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1576066/We-want-to-offer-sharia-law-to-Britain.html

    Suhaib Hasan also employs Haitham Haddad at the Sharia Council and brought Haitham into the fold at Leyton Mosque under his Chairmanship. Who is the extremist?

    You made very good points, and I can't disagree. Afro
    "Life is not a matter of holding good cards, but of playing a poor hand well."
    - Robert Louis Stevenson
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #72 - March 17, 2015, 04:53 AM
    Meh, theology isn't even an academic discipline to begin with so I support Usama Hassan's right to call himself a theologian if he has read up on it and wants himself to be identified as such.

    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #73 - March 17, 2015, 04:54 AM
    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on March 17, 2015, 02:34 AM
    Just listened again, I heard tricking. Though since that basically is taqqiyya I guess it's pointless to go round in circles.

     

    She said tricking near the beginning of the video. The taqiya part comes later in the video.
    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #74 - March 17, 2015, 06:12 AM
    Wasn't so much the use of "Taqiyya", i thought that all the way through she made too much of a generalization about muslims and not the evils of fundamentalism in religion, perhaps that would make one too much of an apologetic i dunno, but other than that she's a great speaker.
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #75 - March 17, 2015, 08:16 AM
    Well the Somali community just had a heart attack  dance. 

    Look lets not get caught up on whether Spencer or Geller use these words. What we know from personal experience is that Muslims have lied about Islam for a long time.  Our Imams, our parents,we have lied to ourselves about Islam until we couldnt anymore. 

    Cerrah, Mehdi, Shafiq, Andaloser, Ramadan et al are peddling lies, they know what the laws are as do we.  Time to take off the kiddy gloves.

    Call a spade a spade
    Oh my Christopher Hitchens its a fihrrrrrrrrrrrr
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #76 - March 17, 2015, 09:01 AM
    three
    I think the answer to what you call it is by asking yourself: When you were a muslim, did you believe in lying or lying by omission for the sake of making Islam look good, and what part of the Quran&Sunnah did you use for that?
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #77 - March 17, 2015, 09:06 AM
    Quote from: Xiis on March 17, 2015, 08:16 AM
    Well the Somali community just had a heart attack  dance.

    Do tell. popcorn
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #78 - March 17, 2015, 09:16 AM
    The Somali forums!  Calling her an attention whore, tool for the white man. Plot to undermine Islam. The list goes on.  There are a few ppl making good points about how she is making valid points and talking about how Andalusi couldnt answer a question but most of them are just angry.  How dare she speak out and say those things about Islam.  This is why the prophet said to kill them...... mysmilie_977 

    They were hating on her on twitter too.

    Typing horrible things in Somali so they couldnt be called out, calling for her to burn in hell, and spitting on her, whore...the usual nonsense Ayaan went thru but I think Amal was more vocal in her contempt which I loved she showed passion. 
    Oh my Christopher Hitchens its a fihrrrrrrrrrrrr
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #79 - March 17, 2015, 09:44 AM
    The more people publicly speaking out, the more normalised and easier it will become. That's the real threat.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #80 - March 17, 2015, 10:03 AM
    Well more than anything i hope that she continues to be safe...  we are scoffing about Islam while hiding behind fake usernames etc, she's heroic.
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #81 - March 17, 2015, 10:03 AM
    Quote from: Xiis on March 17, 2015, 08:16 AM
    What we know from personal experience is that Muslims have lied about Islam for a long time.  Our Imams, our parents,we have lied to ourselves about Islam until we couldnt anymore. 

    Cerrah, Mehdi, Shafiq, Andaloser, Ramadan et al are peddling lies, they know what the laws are as do we.  Time to take off the kiddy gloves.


    I'm sorry but speak for yourself.  I only said what I believed. As for others, who knows - I am inclined to think many others were the same as me.

    There is no doubt many Muslims - including my self - unconsciously deluded ourselves, but that is not the same as consciously lying.

    As for the word Taqiyya itself, in my 50 years as a Muslim I heard it only a couple of times in reference to Shia. Even then it didn't have the wide meaning given to it by modern day bigots. It meant hiding your faith to prevent persecution. A perfectly reasonable reaction to Sunni persecution.

    Now it is the buzz word of the far-right and Christian-right and they use it to simply mean lying in general and that Muslims are taught to lie - that Muslims are uniquely dishonest and you can't trust them.

    Just the sort of thing bigots want to hear to justify suspicion and hatred towards all Muslims!
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #82 - March 17, 2015, 10:06 AM
    Quote from: three on March 17, 2015, 02:33 AM
    I don't know what Taqqiyya is.


    You are obviously lying!!

    You were taught as a Muslim to lie.

    You can't help it.
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #83 - March 17, 2015, 10:41 AM
    Well I guess I will speak for myself then.  Bc i did lie to myself and often covered up for Islam.  Heck my own mother and father have tried to lie their way thru questions I have posed.  We can sit here all day and wonder whether they were intentional or not.  But my folks actually speak arabic and read the quran, which I dont bc I didnt grew up like they did. 

    For instance my mother said to me that Islam doesnt approve of slavery when she reads the quran every morning.

    I put it to her,why does it tell you how to regulate slavery she got angry...its not some subconscious defense mechanism its bold faced I am going to lie to you even with this book in my hand as I do it and you can watch me situation. 

    I get your point about right wing crazies with an agenda trying to use it against innocent muslims but there is a lot of dishonesty.  I choose to believe its intentional and you dont fine
    Oh my Christopher Hitchens its a fihrrrrrrrrrrrr
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #84 - March 17, 2015, 10:51 AM
    This is a general question to all the ex-Muslims here:

    1. Did your parents teach you to practice Taqiyya?

    2. When did you first hear the word Taqiyya?
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #85 - March 17, 2015, 10:57 AM
    Quote from: Hassan on March 17, 2015, 10:51 AM
    This is a general question to all the ex-Muslims here:

    1. Did your parents teach you to practice Taqiyya?

    2. When did you first hear the word Taqiyya?


    As I have said:

    1. No

    2. Yes, though rarely and only in connection to the persecution of Shi'a. However since leaving Islam I must have heard it hundreds of times from rightwing bigots or the Christian-right.
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #86 - March 17, 2015, 11:00 AM
    Quote from: Xiis on March 17, 2015, 10:41 AM
    Well I guess I will speak for myself then.  Bc i did lie to myself and often covered up for Islam.  Heck my own mother and father have tried to lie their way thru questions I have posed.  We can sit here all day and wonder whether they were intentional or not.  But my folks actually speak arabic and read the quran, which I dont bc I didnt grew up like they did. 

    For instance my mother said to me that Islam doesnt approve of slavery when she reads the quran every morning.

    I put it to her,why does it tell you how to regulate slavery she got angry...its not some subconscious defense mechanism its bold faced I am going to lie to you even with this book in my hand as I do it and you can watch me situation. 

    I get your point about right wing crazies with an agenda trying to use it against innocent muslims but there is a lot of dishonesty.  I choose to believe its intentional and you dont fine


    I think you are being very hard on yourself, Xiis. The capacity for human self-delusion is enormous.

    I very much doubt many people actually set out consciously saying 'I am going to tell lies about this.'
  • Re: The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #87 - March 17, 2015, 11:05 AM
    Quote from: Hassan on March 17, 2015, 10:51 AM
    This is a general question to all the ex-Muslims here:

    1. Did your parents teach you to practice Taqiyya?

    2. When did you first hear the word Taqiyya?


    1. No

    2. When I was reading about Shia Islam.
    You are the Universe, Expressing itself as a Human for a little while- Eckhart Tolle
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #88 - March 17, 2015, 11:27 AM
    Quote from: Hassan on March 17, 2015, 10:51 AM
    This is a general question to all the ex-Muslims here:

    1. Did your parents teach you to practice Taqiyya?

    2. When did you first hear the word Taqiyya?


    Maybe this warrants its own thread, don't you agree?

    Anyway:

    1. No.

    2. On this forum after I apostatized Cheesy
    He's no friend to the friendless
    And he's the mother of grief
    There's only sorrow for tomorrow
    Surely life is too brief
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #89 - March 17, 2015, 11:32 AM
    I think needs more than 2 questions. Did you feel peer pressure to cover things up? Did you feel like things were covered up from you? Did you feel ashamed of facts so purposefully veer around them?
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