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 Topic: The Big Questions debate on apostates

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  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #90 - March 17, 2015, 11:39 AM
    Quote from: Lilyesque on March 17, 2015, 11:32 AM
    I think needs more than 2 questions. Did you feel peer pressure to cover things up? Did you feel like things were covered up from you? Did you feel ashamed of facts so purposefully veer around them?


    My problem is specifically with the word "Taqiyya" because it singles out Muslims as being uniquely dishonest.

    I have no problem with anyone accusing specific Muslims of being dishonest - since this doesn't blanket all Muslims. But accusing Muslims of "Taqiyya" is what I object to since it implies that Muslims in general are taught "Taqiyya" as part of their faith and that Muslims are uniquely dishonest and untrustworthy because this principle of "Taqiyya" which is part of the religion they are taught.

    This is simply not true.

    Muslims - in general - are no more dishonest than anyone else is likely to be.

    I agree 100% that many Muslim apologists do dodge and cover things up. But that is not unique to Muslims. Many Christian apologists do that also.

    My objection is to singling out Muslims in general - as being uniquely dishonest.

  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #91 - March 17, 2015, 11:58 AM
    Quote
    My problem is specifically with the word "Taqiyya" because it singles out Muslims as being uniquely dishonest.

     

    My other problem is the damage to CEMB's reputation.  The concept of taqiya is used exclusively bar far right bigots who don't understand a thing about islamic theology and are just using to to fear monger.

    For an official spokesperson of CEMB to say that on live television where it is recorded does do damage to the organization's reputation.
    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #92 - March 17, 2015, 11:59 AM
    This isn't criticism of Amal Farah, which for much of the time did well.
    When you promote unqualified criticism and don't use critical thinking in your assesment you risk getting tunnel vision and from there follows inaccuracy.
    To answer Hassans question, no my parents don't believe in taqqiyah. I doubt they've even heard or read about it. Though doublespeak  is used by some repressentatives from the muslim communities,even though you could go to great length in finding a vague interpretation to justify it,I havent come across anyone using Islamic justification. It should be easy to find a fatwa that allows intentionally misleading people.to promote false beliefs about Islam.
    The first time I came across it was probably by something written by Bobby Spencer or Ali Sina. Bobby hinted that a certain Barack Hussain Obama might be a muslim. Although Ali Sina used to call himself a humanist, he ended up rejecting democracy, calling homosexuality a mental illness. That guy used to run the biggest website critical of Islam and largest exmuslim forum 10 years ago. I made a thread about him last year
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=27085.0
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #93 - March 17, 2015, 12:02 PM
    Quote from: TheDarkRebel on March 17, 2015, 11:58 AM


    My other problem is the damage to CEMB's reputation.  The concept of taqiya is used exclusively bar far right bigots who don't understand a thing about islamic theology and are just using to to fear monger.

    For an official spokesperson of CEMB to say that on live television where it is recorded does do damage to the organization's reputation.


    Yes. I was very disappointed.

    Especially as otherwise she was amazing and I was very impressed with the way she dealt with those idiots.
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #94 - March 17, 2015, 12:04 PM
    Quote from: Skywalker on March 17, 2015, 11:59 AM
    This isn't criticism of Amal Farah, which for much of the time did well.
    When you promote unqualified criticism and don't use critical thinking in your assesment you risk getting tunnel vision and from there follows inaccuracy.
    To answer Hassans question, no my parents don't believe in taqqiyah. I doubt they've even heard or read about it. Though doublespeak  is used by some repressentatives from the muslim communities,even though you could go to great length in finding a vague interpretation to justify it,I havent come across anyone using Islamic justification. It should be easy to find a fatwa that allows intentionally misleading people.to promote false beliefs about Islam.
    The first time I came across it was probably by something written by Bobby Spencer or Ali Sina. Bobby hinted that a certain Barack Hussain Obama might be a muslim. Although Ali Sina used to call himself a humanist, he ended up rejecting democracy, calling homosexuality a mental illness. That guy used to run the biggest website critical of Islam and largest exmuslim forum 10 years ago. I made a thread about him last year
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=27085.0



    Yes I spent time there too and that's when I kept hearing the word "Taqiyya" and I was like WTF?? These guys don't know what they are talking about!!
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #95 - March 17, 2015, 12:12 PM
    I think some basic knowledge of islamic theology is important to be an effective spokesperson.


    In the past Maryam Namazie participated in a debate on whether or not islamic law was inhumane. The group she debated that with was a minority sect  that believe in secularism. For them sharia just applies to their personal lives not to be imposed on others.

    They entire debate both parties were talking past each other as they both condemned islamic laws as promoted by salafis and islamists.

    If Maryam had done some basic googling into the sect she would have chosen a different opponent.

    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #96 - March 17, 2015, 12:25 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on March 17, 2015, 11:39 AM
    My problem is specifically with the word "Taqiyya" because it singles out Muslims as being uniquely dishonest.

    I have no problem with anyone accusing specific Muslims of being dishonest - since this doesn't blanket all Muslims. But accusing Muslims of "Taqiyya" is what I object to since it implies that Muslims in general are taught "Taqiyya" as part of their faith and that Muslims are uniquely dishonest and untrustworthy because this principle of "Taqiyya" which is part of the religion they are taught.

    This is simply not true.

    Muslims - in general - are no more dishonest than anyone else is likely to be.

    I agree 100% that many Muslim apologists do dodge and cover things up. But that is not unique to Muslims. Many Christian apologists do that also.

    My objection is to singling out Muslims in general - as being uniquely dishonest.




    Agreed, hence non use of it in those questions.
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #97 - March 17, 2015, 01:27 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on March 17, 2015, 10:51 AM
    This is a general question to all the ex-Muslims here:

    1. Did your parents teach you to practice Taqiyya?

    2. When did you first hear the word Taqiyya?


    1. No never heard of the word even when learning Hifz at Darul Islam
    2. First time I heard the word was when I joined this forum
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #98 - March 17, 2015, 01:29 PM
    ^^ First question isn't really applicable to me, but the first time I heard about Taqiyya was when I was reading a right-wing anti-Sharia article someone had written on a person who was close to me who I very much admired, accusing him of practicing it.
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #99 - March 17, 2015, 01:41 PM
    Only heard of the actual term from reading far right extremist Muslim and Islam bashing texts, or when reading/listening to shia hating lectures from sunni scholars. Smiley

    However, the actual practice of "doublespeak" is very much a big part of dawah (when we studied the theory and practice of dawah you often came across it). It is even a basic part of parent-child and husband-wife interaction (again, it was all entwined when you studied the fiqh of family and marriage). And the basis for this is found in the hadeeth and texts of the scholars.

    The problem here is that you don't see through it but just accept it without reflecting on the fact that it does constitute deceit and dishonesty. Because it's being normalized so much so that you don't see it as such anymore. It's not something unique to Islam, though... the dawagandists don't understand how they can be accused of "taqiyah", while in the exact same instant practicing doublespeak...
    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #100 - March 17, 2015, 02:51 PM
    I doubt that Muslim parents teach Taqiya, they teach honesty.   I think Taqiya is mostly a cultural thing pre Islam dating back to ancient times when arab tribes practised it for survival, for making business, war tactics etc.  You do see a lot of it practised in the business world today, i'm not a business woman but my ex is and you witness a lot of dishonesty in the muslim world, it's almost expected, not sure if Taqiya is to blame for that or i'm generalising . 
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #101 - March 17, 2015, 03:47 PM
    ^ The major problem with this is that when it's dishonesty in the career and business practices of white folks, that's just part of the dog-eat-dog territory and almost viewed in a positive light. When poor old Christians are doing doublespeak, it's just them being delusional or defending their religion against attack to the best of their ability. When someone from the West lies, they're just dishonest. But if a Muslim does it, it's Taqiyya. It's his culture to do that taqiyya.

    This is why I hate the use of this word. You can't divorce yourself from this charge of taqiyya. People in general are dishonest as fuck, but it has a name and it has a background when it's taqiyya, it conjures a mental image of potential offenders based on clothing, on race, on their country, and it's used to promote suspicion of huge groups of people, and even honest ones get caught up in it. Lying is human, but a lying Muslim is on another level, those mysterious, untrustworthy others, part of a hive-mind, practicing the dreaded taqiyya.
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #102 - March 17, 2015, 03:49 PM
    Quote from: lua on March 17, 2015, 03:47 PM
    ^ The major problem with this is that when it's dishonesty in the career and business practices of white folks, that's just part of the dog-eat-dog territory and almost viewed in a positive light. When poor old Christians are doing doublespeak, it's just them being delusional or defending their religion against attack to the best of their ability. When someone from the West lies, they're just dishonest. But if a Muslim does it, it's Taqiyya. It's his culture to do that taqiyya.

    This is why I hate the use of this word. You can't divorce yourself from this charge of taqiyya. People in general are dishonest as fuck, but it has a name and it has a background when it's taqiyya, it conjures a mental image of potential offenders based on clothing, on race, on their country, and it's used to promote suspicion of huge groups of people, and even honest ones get caught up in it. Lying is human, but a lying Muslim is on another level, those mysterious, untrustworthy others, part of a hive-mind, practicing the dreaded taqiyya.


    ^Bingo!
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #103 - March 17, 2015, 03:57 PM
    ^I agree. Can Muslims have cognitive dissonance, be delusional, or straight up lie every now and again? Of course they can. But giving it this funny sounding name and claiming it is a principle of faith is only a demonizing scare tactic. It reminds me of when right-wing nut jobs accused Obama of studying in a “madrasa” in Indonesia, not noting that a madrasa is simply a school! 
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #104 - March 17, 2015, 04:18 PM
    Quote from: happymurtad on March 17, 2015, 03:57 PM
    ^I agree. Can Muslims have cognitive dissonance, be delusional, or straight up lie every now and again? Of course they can. But giving it this funny sounding name and claiming it is a principle of faith is only a demonizing scare tactic. It reminds me of when right-wing nut jobs accused Obama of studying in a “madrasa” in Indonesia, not noting that a madrasa is simply a school! 


    The irony is that often those who shout the loudest about "Taqiyya" are themselves being deceptive and dishonest.
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #105 - March 17, 2015, 04:19 PM
    Quote from: lua on March 17, 2015, 03:47 PM
    ^ The major problem with this is that when it's dishonesty in the career and business practices of white folks, that's just part of the dog-eat-dog territory and almost viewed in a positive light. When poor old Christians are doing doublespeak, it's just them being delusional or defending their religion against attack to the best of their ability. When someone from the West lies, they're just dishonest. But if a Muslim does it, it's Taqiyya. It's his culture to do that taqiyya.

    This is why I hate the use of this word. You can't divorce yourself from this charge of taqiyya. People in general are dishonest as fuck, but it has a name and it has a background when it's taqiyya, it conjures a mental image of potential offenders based on clothing, on race, on their country, and it's used to promote suspicion of huge groups of people, and even honest ones get caught up in it. Lying is human, but a lying Muslim is on another level, those mysterious, untrustworthy others, part of a hive-mind, practicing the dreaded taqiyya.


    <3
    He's no friend to the friendless
    And he's the mother of grief
    There's only sorrow for tomorrow
    Surely life is too brief
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #106 - March 17, 2015, 05:24 PM
    Aw. 001_wub
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #107 - March 17, 2015, 05:25 PM
    I think Taqiya is a very silly word too and i don't agree with it's use, as silly as it is, the idea of it does derive from saudi tribal culture and culture can also affect how business is conducted from country to country.. The business world will always be corrupt everywhere, but try working for the rich saudis and you'll see what i mean..  nothin gets done, not to mention their disregard for migrant workers..   wacko       anyways i'm just refering to culture, not race, individuals or religion, although religion creates a culture too.    (i'm too busy cooking to think straight)  : )
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #108 - March 17, 2015, 06:23 PM
    I know what you mean already, the inefficiency and corruption, particularly in government positions in KSA, is legendary. But that's a whole other story with a whole other cause. Not dishonesty, certainly not religion-inspired lying.
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #109 - March 17, 2015, 06:36 PM
    Quote from: suki on March 17, 2015, 05:25 PM
    I think Taqiya is a very silly word too and i don't agree with it's use, as silly as it is, the idea of it does derive from saudi tribal culture and culture can also affect how business is conducted from country to country.. The business world will always be corrupt everywhere, but try working for the rich saudis and you'll see what i mean..  nothin gets done, not to mention their disregard for migrant workers..   wacko       anyways i'm just refering to culture, not race, individuals or religion, although religion creates a culture too.    (i'm too busy cooking to think straight)  : )

    I think you are confusing two very different things, suki. It is true that Saudi Arabia contains elements of extreme corruption, bureaucracy, and downright incompetence, but that is not what is meant by “taqiya.” Those peddling this “don’t trust Muslims because they practice a concept called taqiya” business are trying to make it seem as though, as an element of their faith, Muslims are taught to lie and be deceptive through the use of this scary sounding practice. The truth is that most Muslims will frankly have never even heard of it.   
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #110 - March 17, 2015, 07:01 PM
    Quote from: happymurtad on March 17, 2015, 06:36 PM
    I think you are confusing two very different things, suki. It is true that Saudi Arabia contains elements of extreme corruption, bureaucracy, and downright incompetence, but that is not what is meant by “taqiya.” Those peddling this “don’t trust Muslims because they practice a concept called taqiya” business are trying to make it seem as though, as an element of their faith, Muslims are taught to lie and be deceptive through the use of this scary sounding practice. The truth is that most Muslims will frankly have never even heard of it.  

    That is true to 99% of Muslim  folks  who were born and brought up in west. But taqiya is well known to those who preach Islam specially in Shia Imams. Frankly speaking there is  NOTHING wrong with  Taqiya or practicing Taqiya in its real sense as it was intended some time  in early 9th century Islam ...


    Taqiya is silly Arabic word and it is NOTHING TO DO WITH ISLAM ., it was there before the birth of Islam., It is there in every religion in every culture., even in children and  probably even in animals. It is practiced ( AND IT SHOULD BE PRACTICED)., not only in Islam., not only in the case of any faith., But if  some one or group of scoundrels using   force and physical violence., the victims will lie for the sake their protection.  It happens all the time in police force ,. Even those who didn't commit any crime accept  the crime when you beat them up.

    what is wrong is using that silly word to every Muslim that walk on the roads and trying to insult them using Taqiya..  such as  "Oh you are lying because you want to convert me in to your faith.. ".

    But frankly speaking there is NOTHING  WRONG in practicing Taqiya as it was intended in early Islam. What is wrong is using that word without using brain and creating  Phobia against Muslim folks  or using it for politics to alienate Muslims folks where they are in minority..

    see this tube

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APCslX6C74w

    That is also a kind of Taqiya.. That kid is lying for getting attention...
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #111 - March 17, 2015, 07:37 PM
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjZSJg1HQpc

    hmmm....Klingschor did a good job  on Taqiyya

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMFSfiseaJY

    classic rascal.. juice...juice..juice..
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #112 - March 17, 2015, 07:56 PM
    Interesting that people seem to say 'If I was there I'd say this or that'. Oh come of it now! When your in a pressured and vulnerable environment your thoughts collide with one another, esp. When there are antagonistic persons that twist your words and obfuscate. As for her use of Taqqiyah, I said it was disappointing but I understand it given the fact that those two morons were blatantly lying about their true beliefs!

    Amal if you read this you did a bloody brilliant job. Thank you for standing up for some of us!

    Unicorns love you.

    Xxx
    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #113 - March 17, 2015, 08:13 PM
    Quote from: Jedi on March 17, 2015, 07:56 PM
    Amal if you read this you did a bloody brilliant job. Thank you for standing up for some of us!

    Unicorns love you.

    Xxx


    Yes, Amal you were excellent.  Afro
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #114 - March 17, 2015, 08:59 PM
    Quote from: Jedi on March 17, 2015, 07:56 PM
    Interesting that people seem to say 'If I was there I'd say this or that'. Oh come of it now! When your in a pressured and vulnerable environment your thoughts collide with one another, esp. When there are antagonistic persons that twist your words and obfuscate. As for her use of Taqqiyah, I said it was disappointing but I understand it given the fact that those two morons were blatantly lying about their true beliefs!

    Amal if you read this you did a bloody brilliant job. Thank you for standing up for some of us!

    Unicorns love you.

    Xxx

    Jedi unique unicorn.. I completely lost there  who is that "her?"  you mean that suki post above happy_M?
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #115 - March 17, 2015, 09:04 PM
    Nahi Yeezi bhai...Amal's use of the word on TBQ....

    I suppose you can say that her use of the term required re-phrasing but it seems that there is a great stir connected to it. She did a splendid job.
    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #116 - March 17, 2015, 09:22 PM
    I never try to say that I'd do better than someone else under pressure. Has anyone ever seen the lady on Wheel of Fortune who was trying to solve for "self-portrait" and instead guessed "self-potato?" I am her all over. I am terrible on the spot.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2XymdmLQhE
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #117 - March 17, 2015, 09:24 PM
    Quote from: Jedi on March 17, 2015, 09:04 PM
    Nahi Yeezi bhai...Amal's use of the word on TBQ....
    ....

    oh..oh that Amal Faraway

    sheeeet     i just started reading this from that happy_M post   but you know it is vital to educate people on this subject from  every angle.

    Al-Taqiyya, Dissimulation

    What is Taqiyya?

    Taqiyya _(Concealing One's Faith)

    hmm that is interesting that last link is new to  me...
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #118 - March 17, 2015, 09:30 PM
    Quote from: happymurtad on March 17, 2015, 06:36 PM
    I think you are confusing two very different things, suki. It is true that Saudi Arabia contains elements of extreme corruption, bureaucracy, and downright incompetence, but that is not what is meant by “taqiya.” Those peddling this “don’t trust Muslims because they practice a concept called taqiya” business are trying to make it seem as though, as an element of their faith, Muslims are taught to lie and be deceptive through the use of this scary sounding practice. The truth is that most Muslims will frankly have never even heard of it.  


    Hey yep you're all correct, i was just thinking of the pre islamic concept or practice of "taqiya" god i hate that word already lol, that once existed between the warring tribes of arabia as opposed to the modern day interpretation of it and was wondering if there was some kind of link between the bad parts of saudi culture today and that of the ancient days.. (Anyways my mind is still in a pickle as i'm trying to watch a film called interstella...)  i'm curious what the jews version is as they have a caracature, big nosed money counting jew, i'm sure Galfromusa may know the jewish interpretation of taqiya..
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #119 - March 17, 2015, 09:34 PM
    Quote
    that once existed between the warring tribes of arabia as opposed to the modern day interpretation of it and was wondering if there was some kind of link between the bad parts of saudi culture today and that of the ancient days..


    What history of it being practiced between warring tribes of Arabia? Can you or someone else give me some sources? This is the first I've heard of it.
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