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 Topic: Here's where I'm at with Islam

 (Read 6344 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Here's where I'm at with Islam
     OP - March 24, 2015, 09:45 PM

    Hi all,

    new on here and wanted some help and guidance from people with real knowledge of islam who have rejected it. First of all I hated muslims and all other religious people until I decided to actually learn what islam is.

    Ever since I started learning I feel myself starting to believe more and more. The miracles in the Qu'ran mainly get me! It's hard to hear all these experts on Islam rhyme off all these miracles and not be quite taken aback...

    Basically I'm looking for studies or videos that debunk these miracles, especially the mathematical miracle which pickles my brain the more I read about it. is the Qu'ran really scientifically accurate? was muhammad really the best man to ever walk the earth? can the Qu'ran be challenged on eloquence and style? Could it have been written by man?? is Islam really perfect and does it have all the solutions for every problem man could face? These are all questions that I want answered as I struggle to find anything substantial to go against all of these claims!

    any help would be greatly appreciated
    Stuart
  • Here's where I'm at with Islam
     Reply #1 - March 24, 2015, 10:04 PM

    The miracles are all true, especially the mathematical ones. (btw could you remind me of them.)

    Convert to Islam!

    Then God won't have to melt your face and bbq your limbs.

    Alternatively take a look at some of these vids by the evil folks here:

    https://www.youtube.com/user/CEMBadmins/videos

     Afro
  • Here's where I'm at with Islam
     Reply #2 - March 24, 2015, 10:42 PM

    Also ...

    https://m.youtube.com/user/TheRationalizer
  • Here's where I'm at with Islam
     Reply #3 - March 24, 2015, 10:49 PM

    Here is the youtube channel that debunks the so called "scientific miracles in the quran. "

    https://www.youtube.com/user/TheIslammiracle/videos


    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Here's where I'm at with Islam
     Reply #4 - March 25, 2015, 12:26 AM

    Just watch all the videos of "the mask Arab"
    http://m.youtube.com/?gl=DE&hl=de#/channel/UC9JU55HpvRvCSb1TO2w_eDA

    Especially this one:
    http://m.youtube.com/?gl=DE&hl=de#/watch?v=OvG-606KqwU

    Also I can recommend you the book "questioning Islam" by Peter Townsend.
  • Here's where I'm at with Islam
     Reply #5 - March 25, 2015, 04:39 AM

    Hi all,... can the Qu'ran be challenged on eloquence and style? Could it have been written by man??


    If we're talking about Semitic religious poetry, Ephrem the Syrian might challenge the Qur'an (tip: remember where the hamza goes).

    If we're talking about post-600 CE eloquence and style, the Shahnameh of Firdawsi. (Actually pretty much anything by any Persian.)

    My culture is more Western, so I could direct you to William Blake or Shakespeare. Or Lord Dunsany. Actually maybe you should start with Dunsany: http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/8395
  • Here's where I'm at with Islam
     Reply #6 - March 25, 2015, 05:20 AM

    There is no specific "true" Islam. There are various school for Islam and interpretation for each of them. Some are more literal and some more "figurative". To those that take a literal interpretation and follow the Quran letter by letter, you'll start to see some of this "scientific" miracle going against it. Like for example the Earth orbiting the sun.

    I was also impressed with this "scientific miracles" when I was more devout. If you are to scrutinize it, you'll see that the miracles are vague and not even specific. Also one ore thing the meaning of science. Science is a system where you make a hypothesis and subject your hypothesis with as much scrutiny as possible and to see whether it testable or not. Pointing a "miracle" and trying to self-confirm is not science thus I said putting scrutiny.

  • Here's where I'm at with Islam
     Reply #7 - March 25, 2015, 05:21 AM

    I would advice you to look into other mythology, cosmology, and theology of other religions. You will find many of the concepts of Islam are centuries to millennia older than Islam. the miracles claims are often vague, as pointed out above. Keep in mind these claims of miracles are made after the fact, ad hoc. Never do these miracles developed before the discovery is made, only after. This is a fallacy thus many of the claims have no merit.
  • Here's where I'm at with Islam
     Reply #8 - March 25, 2015, 09:27 AM

    You can find pattens in anything. There are actually people who have found miracles in Moby Dick.

    http://cs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/dilugim/moby.html

    http://skeptic-mind.blogspot.co.uk/2011/11/holy-moby-dick.html

    Here's a few links for you.

    Scientific Miracles in the Qur'an Debunked:

    http://councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=4537.0

    5 strongest arguments against the Quran:

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=17132.0

    This poster here joined with similar questions, basically for the same reason you joined. He started a lot of threads asking questions. Feel free to have a look.

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?action=profile;u=6208;sa=showTopics

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Here's where I'm at with Islam
     Reply #9 - March 25, 2015, 04:31 PM

    Thanks folks, I'll look through them all. I've been in contact recently with dawah man, he's got his own youtube channel etc. He's offered to come up to Scotland to meet me. I watch a lot of his videos along with Hamza tzortsis and an Australian muslim who's name escapes me.

    Can I just ask quickly if people on here have become athiest after being muslim?
  • Here's where I'm at with Islam
     Reply #10 - March 25, 2015, 04:42 PM

    I'm Agnostic.

    ...and lots of luck with Dawahman and Hamza Tzortsis.
  • Here's where I'm at with Islam
     Reply #11 - March 25, 2015, 04:45 PM

    Show him this.

    The Dawahman Song:

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=25477.0

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Here's where I'm at with Islam
     Reply #12 - March 25, 2015, 04:48 PM

    Many people here are once Muslim or very devout. That pray 5 times a day, perform zakat, ramadan fast, memorise the Quran and totally doing the best to be a good Muslim. Each of us here have a different story of how we walk out of Islam. This forum is created to give support for those that walk out of Islam as it not an easy journey as for most of us it is probably a death penalty doing this.

    Personally for me it took me years for doubt to grow. I was a devout Muslim. I buy every single scientific Quran miracle there is. They are not miracles their confirmation biases. If the Quran do really state clearly of those finding we would be 1000 years more advance already.

    Are you a Muslim by birth OP? I do watch dawahman and Hamza tzortsis. To a believer it is very convincing but if you ask alot of question is does not make sense. There are many presupposition made by them. Also watch out for ad hominem  there are plenty. By the looks out of you are believer or you want to believe, you may be convince. My advice is take slowly, if you feel comfortable with Islam ok that is fine. Make your own choice rather that on threats of hellfire.
  • Here's where I'm at with Islam
     Reply #13 - March 25, 2015, 04:57 PM

    It is striking to me how this claim of scientific miracles seems to have taken such hold on modern Muslims.   But it is not limited to Islam, the same claims have been made regarding the Bible, the Vedas, and the I Ching.  Wiki has a good discussion:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_foreknowledge_in_sacred_texts

    They can't all be scientific miracles at the same time.  The other thing that is really odd to me is how many of these scientific miracles reflect generic beliefs of Late Antiquity ... yet this doesn't seem to enter the believer's head to ask whether any older texts before their holy scripture contained the same 'scientific miracles' they are advocating.

    Moving it to Mecca doesn't help that problem, because if pagans were able to figure it out and write it down without God long before Mohammed, it isn't a 'miracle' that it's in the Qur'an.
  • Here's where I'm at with Islam
     Reply #14 - March 25, 2015, 06:22 PM

    I do believe in a creator yes and out of the religions the only one that makes any sense is Islam...and ill be honest the threats of hellfire and judgement day do scare and I can see what would make many people convert.

    I'm from a completely Scottish background, no muslims in my family or circle of friends. I just simply looked into islam and was more and more drawn to it. I agree that muslims across the world are persecuted and the prophet Muhammed did say that they would be until they stood up for themselves which looks a bit like what's happening now...

    http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/379/
    that page for example shows predictions made by Muhammed that have came true...no explanation
  • Here's where I'm at with Islam
     Reply #15 - March 25, 2015, 06:24 PM

    What about the predictions by Moby Dick that came true?

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Here's where I'm at with Islam
     Reply #16 - March 25, 2015, 06:26 PM

    the threats of hellfire and judgement day do scare


    Debunking Jahannam: Why Islamic Hell Is Not Real

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=24124.0

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Here's where I'm at with Islam
     Reply #17 - March 25, 2015, 06:33 PM

    I do believe in a creator yes and out of the religions the only one that makes any sense is Islam...and ill be honest the threats of hellfire and judgement day do scare and I can see what would make many people convert.

    I'm from a completely Scottish background, no muslims in my family or circle of friends. I just simply looked into islam and was more and more drawn to it. I agree that muslims across the world are persecuted and the prophet Muhammed did say that they would be until they stood up for themselves which looks a bit like what's happening now...

    http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/379/
    that page for example shows predictions made by Muhammed that have came true...no explanation


    Yeah, there are tons of ancient Near Eastern books jam packed with prophecies that 'came true.'  Book of Daniel is a great example.

    http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/daniel.html

    http://www.reasons.org/articles/articles/fulfilled-prophecy-evidence-for-the-reliability-of-the-bible

    "Unique among all books ever written, the Bible accurately foretells specific events-in detail-many years, sometimes centuries, before they occur. Approximately 2500 prophecies appear in the pages of the Bible, about 2000 of which already have been fulfilled to the letter—no errors. "

    If you've never seen the trick before, you might be impressed.  If you've seen it 200x over, by a different writer each time, it gets less impressive.  Like fortune telling.

    These things always violate Occam's razor, as well as David Hume's observation that it is always vastly more likely that the person claiming a miracle is lying or mistaken than that it is true -- extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.  For example, Mohammed allegedly predicted the invasion and conquest of Persia.  Well, you COULD explain this by saying that Allah handed a divine revelation down through the angel Gibril to Mohammed.  Or you COULD explain it by saying that it was first written down after the conquest of Persia ... or that it was written before (there were many predictions of Persian defeat amongst the Byzantines and Syrians, without Allah's help, so it's not like it was a rare expectation), and preserved, while failed predictions were not preserved, such that Islamic tradition "shockingly" repeats comparatively few failed Mohammedan prophecies in its orthodox hadith compilations assembled centuries later (one criterion that was used for selecting hadith as valid was probably that they not make Mohammed look deeply mistaken).  You can always come up with far simpler and more plausible non-miraculous explanations.  If you want to.  If you insist on believing in miracles, there's not much that can be done.
  • Here's where I'm at with Islam
     Reply #18 - March 25, 2015, 06:49 PM

    >out of the religions the only one that makes any sense is Islam

    Makes sense? Hmmm… What makes sense about eternally torturing people because they didn't believe?

    >the threats of hellfire and judgement day do scare and I can see what would make many people convert.

    Yes indeed threats of pain & torture - as every ruthless tyrant knows - really gets shit done!

    >I'm from a completely Scottish background, no muslims in my family or circle of friends. I just simply looked into islam and was more and more drawn to it.

    We'll good luck. If you're trully convinced and happy I sincerely wish you all the best. Just please don't fall for all the jihadi wahabi form of islam.

    >I agree that muslims across the world are persecuted and the prophet Muhammed did say that they would be until they stood up for themselves which looks a bit like what's happening now...

    Some Muslims are persecuted while some do the persecuting. Much like most groups of people. As far standing up for themselves - could you define what you mean?  Are you suggesting the ISIS psychos are "standing up for Islam"?

    >http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/379/
    that page for example shows predictions made by Muhammed that have came true...no explanation
    [/quote]

    Name me one miracle. The best one. Or best three. Or even best 10.
  • Here's where I'm at with Islam
     Reply #19 - March 25, 2015, 06:58 PM

    I smell a troll.

    إطلب العلم ولو في الصين

    Es sitzt keine Krone so fest und so hoch,
    Der mutige Springer erreicht sie doch.

    I don't give a fuck about your war, or your President.
  • Here's where I'm at with Islam
     Reply #20 - March 25, 2015, 07:02 PM

    I just took a look at the link you posted and this is the first.

    (1)  Preceding the Battle of Badr, the first and decisive confrontation with pagan Meccans in the second year of migration from Mecca in 623 CE, Prophet Muhammad foretold the precise spot every pagan Meccan soldier would fall.  Those who witnessed the battle saw the prophecy come true with their own eyes.

    Erm… evidence?
  • Here's where I'm at with Islam
     Reply #21 - March 25, 2015, 07:03 PM

    I smell a troll.


    Me too.
  • Here's where I'm at with Islam
     Reply #22 - March 25, 2015, 07:24 PM

    I agree that muslims across the world are persecuted and the prophet Muhammed did say that they would be until they stood up for themselves which looks a bit like what's happening now...

    This is utter bs. A whole bunch of countries are ruled by Muslims today. And wherever Muslims have power, they're the oppressors, not the oppressed. You would not want to switch places with an ex muslim in those countries, i'll tell ya that.

    "we stand firm calling to allah all the time,
    we let them know - bang! bang! - coz it's dawah time!"
  • Here's where I'm at with Islam
     Reply #23 - March 25, 2015, 07:43 PM

    I smell a troll.


    I hope not. Not that it's this ayk guy again (who posted to introductions about miracles and how serious he is in discussing with us).

    Still I'm gonna quote something from "Questioning Islam":

    Quote from:  Peter Townsend
    Muhammed spectacularly failed a test of his prophethood.

    The preeminent Sunni hadith collection, Sahih Bukkahri, contains a long narrative wherein Muhammad's claim to prophethood is examined by a member of one of the Jewish tribes of Medina. Those who heard him were convinced that he passed this test with flying colors, but closer inspection reveals that this supposedly definitive vindication of Muhammed's prophethood is nothing in short. Here is the tradition (Sahih Bukhari 4:55:546):
    "When 'Abduallah bin Salam heard the arrival of the Prophet at Medina, he came to him and said, "I am going to ask you about three things which nobody knows except a prophet: What is the first portent of the Hour? What will be the first meal taken by the people of Paradise? Why does a child resemble its father, and why does it resembele its maternal uncle?" Allah's Apostle said "Gabriel has just now told me of their answers." 'Abduallah said said', "he (i.e. Gabriel), from amongst all the angles, is the enemy of the Jews." Allah's Apostle said, "The first portent of the Hour will be a fire that will bring together the people from the east of the west; the first meal of the people of Paradise will be Extra-lobe (caudate lobe) of fish-liver. As for the resemblance of the child to its parent: If a man has sexual intercourse with his wife and gets discharge first, the child will resemble the father, and if the woman gets discharge first, the child will resemble her."

    Consider for a moment how absurd and strange this "test" is. Abdullah bin Salam asks Muhammed three questions that only a prophet will know the answer to. The question must be: How on earth did he know that Muahmmed was correct if only a prophet can know the answer to the questions?"
    (...)
    In addition to the silliness of this test, it should also be noted that Muhammed gets the third answer completely wrong!
    I probably do not need to spell out why this is plainly ridiculous. Suffice it to say that modern science will confirm that order of sexual climax plays no role whatsoever in the genetic makeup of any resultant offspring, contrary to Muhammed's claim. Any female 'discharge' during sex will also not fulfill any reproductive role. Muhammed's answer there tells us a lot about how desert Arabs saw the process of reproduction while at the same time disproving his prophetic claims.

  • Here's where I'm at with Islam
     Reply #24 - March 25, 2015, 09:10 PM

    there were many predictions of Persian defeat amongst the Byzantines and Syrians, without Allah's help, so it's not like it was a rare expectation

    could you care to explain more about this?

    "we stand firm calling to allah all the time,
    we let them know - bang! bang! - coz it's dawah time!"
  • Here's where I'm at with Islam
     Reply #25 - March 25, 2015, 09:15 PM

    Sure, the Syriac Alexander texts are all about how the Christian Byzantines and their emperor will mimic their prototype Alexander and defeat the pagan Eastern Persians, thereby somehow ushering in the apocalypse.  That's the basic idea (which you see reflected in basal Qur'anic theology as well!).

    https://www.escholar.manchester.ac.uk/api/datastream?publicationPid=uk-ac-man-scw:1m2140&datastreamId=POST-PEER-REVIEW-PUBLISHERS-DOCUMENT.PDF

    Although it's a good article, note the author's unintentionally damning observation that the Syriac Alexander neshana cannot have been the source of the Qur'anic version because it shows specific knowledge of the events of 629/30 (!) which cannot be reconciled with Islamic tradition about the Qur'an's compilation.  As I like to say, most claims of 'cannots' are double-edged, x cannot be true because of y .... well then, perhaps, y cannot be true because of x.  Just like Mohammed cannot have learned the Qur'an's knowledge from being an illiterate pagan in Mecca ... well perhaps Mohammed cannot have been an illiterate pagan in Mecca, or the Qur'an does not reflect his personal knowledge.  You must always consider the flipside implication.  If the facts on the ground can't be reconciled with Islamic tradition, it's Islamic tradition that should give way, not the reverse.

    The Qur'an itself talks about this looming Byzantine defeat of the Sassanians which shall lead into the apocalypse:

    http://quran.com/30
  • Here's where I'm at with Islam
     Reply #26 - March 25, 2015, 09:38 PM

    Haha not a troll in the slightest...I'm genuinely here to pointed in the direction of criticisms of islam and to ultimately find out the truth, whatever that may be!
  • Here's where I'm at with Islam
     Reply #27 - March 25, 2015, 10:11 PM

    Haha not a troll in the slightest...I'm genuinely here to pointed in the direction of criticisms of islam and to ultimately find out the truth, whatever that may be!


    Fair enough.

    But can't you see that you can only use a "Miracle" to convince someone if they can actually verify the miracle for themselves.

    It's all well and good saying those companions witnessed it - good for them! But we today have not witnessed that "miracle". Hearsay is not proof.
  • Here's where I'm at with Islam
     Reply #28 - March 26, 2015, 05:31 AM

    I do believe in a creator yes and out of the religions the only one that makes any sense is Islam...and ill be honest the threats of hellfire and judgement day do scare and I can see what would make many people convert.

    I'm from a completely Scottish background, no muslims in my family or circle of friends. I just simply looked into islam and was more and more drawn to it. I agree that muslims across the world are persecuted and the prophet Muhammed did say that they would be until they stood up for themselves which looks a bit like what's happening now...

    http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/379/
    that page for example shows predictions made by Muhammed that have came true...no explanation


    I hope you realize that your sources are centuries after the events each describes and many are within random chance. For example details about the invasion of Persia pales in comparison to the plans for the D-day Normandy invasion. Either the invasion fails or succeeds which is well within random chance. While the Normandy invasion predicted troop moments, deployment, and reactions of the Germans. Heck I predict IS will be defeated. When they are, remember my comment. Likewise either Muslims will be oppressed or they will not. It is still within random chance as it is set with only two outcomes. People gamble with far worst odds in casinos. Also the ambiguous terms, names and place do nothing to for accuracy and some are impossible to verify like the place where the pagan bodies were.
  • Here's where I'm at with Islam
     Reply #29 - March 26, 2015, 05:14 PM

    Heck I predict IS will be defeated. When they are, remember my comment.

    care to put a time frame? I mean, the koran did say in "bid'i" years.

    "we stand firm calling to allah all the time,
    we let them know - bang! bang! - coz it's dawah time!"
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