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 Topic: About calls for reforming Islam

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  • About calls for reforming Islam
     Reply #30 - March 31, 2015, 01:58 PM
    Quote from: moi on March 31, 2015, 12:43 PM
    Would it help if Islam was defined as the religions of the Arab and Persian Empires?

    And then the question focusses on their political systems, not focussing on a very powerful symptom, their religions of sunni and shia?


    Nope that will not help.. but without doubt throwing All hadith in to trash will help Muslim folks immensely ... if not Islam...
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • About calls for reforming Islam
     Reply #31 - March 31, 2015, 02:59 PM
    Quote from: Skywalker on March 31, 2015, 09:39 AM
    I wonder what would've happened if the Mutazilites or the Fatimids(Ismailism) continued to rule/and or expanded the territories they ruled? How would the Islamic world looked like today?


    I do not see that the world would be any different. The Fatimids were pretty ruthless at persecuting minorities. They made Jews wear yellow stars and made Christians wear some humiliating outfits. They are the reason why there are no Christians in Northwest Africa today. They had centuries to have a renaissance or an enlightenment and it never happened. Even if they had another 1,000 years in power I don't think it would have come.
  • About calls for reforming Islam
     Reply #32 - March 31, 2015, 03:27 PM
    Are you sure it is the Fatimids who are the reason there aren't christians in Northwest Africa and not some other caliphate?
  • About calls for reforming Islam
     Reply #33 - March 31, 2015, 04:15 PM
    Looking to past 'liberal' movements/sects is a mistake. They belonged to their time. Not ours.
  • About calls for reforming Islam
     Reply #34 - March 31, 2015, 04:16 PM
    Are we sure we are not looking at a series of political entities, probably traceable back to tyrannies, that had a new weapon of control, words?
    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • About calls for reforming Islam
     Reply #35 - March 31, 2015, 04:20 PM
    Quote
    Quote from: Tonyt on March 31, 2015, 02:59 PM
    I do not see that the world would be any different. The Fatimids were pretty ruthless at persecuting minorities. They made Jews wear yellow stars and made Christians wear some humiliating outfits. They are the reason why there are no Christians in Northwest Africa today. They had centuries to have a renaissance or an enlightenment and it never happened. Even if they had another 1,000 years in power I don't think it would have come.

    Quote from: Skywalker on March 31, 2015, 03:27 PM
    Are you sure it is the Fatimids who are the reason there aren't christians in Northwest Africa and not some other caliphate?



    I don't think Tonyt is correct in his assessment of Fatimid Caliphate., It is possible during that 2-3 100years  of ruling some brutes may have done such barbaric things but as long as Jews  and  Christians paid that  jizya tax and not competed politically with Muslims they were living ok..

    but this persecution is very relative term..

    Fatimid Caliphate

    ARMY, REGIME, AND SOCIETY IN FATIMID EGYPT, 358-487/968-1094

    the Art of the Fatimid Period (909–1171)

    THE RISE AND DECLINE OF THE FATIMID EMPIRE

    Egypt: History - Fatimid Period

    Peace through Pluralism in Muslim world

    Fatimid Caliphate time line

    Egyptian History

    Life Under the Fatimids: Clothing, Women’s Undergarments, Veiling and…A Winter Image of Fatimid Cairo!


    well there are plety of historical resources out there on that Fatimadi time line..
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • About calls for reforming Islam
     Reply #36 - March 31, 2015, 04:38 PM
    From wikipedia on Fatimid Caliph al-Hakim:

    Quote
    Religious minorities and the law of differentiation

    In 1004 Al-Hakim decreed that the Christians could no longer celebrate Epiphany or Easter.[24] He also outlawed the use of wine (nabidh) and even other intoxicating drinks not made from grapes (fuqa) to both Muslims and non-Muslims alike.[22] This produced a hardship for both Christians (who used wine in their religious rites) and Jews (who used it in their religious festivals).

    In 1005, al-Ḥākim ordered that Jews and Christians follow ghiyār "the law of differentiation" – in this case, the mintaq or zunnar "belt" (Greek ζοναριον) and ‘imāmah "turban", both in black. In addition, Jews must wear a wooden calf necklace and Christians an iron cross. In the public baths, Jews must replace the calf with a bell. In addition, women of the Ahl al-Kitab had to wear two different coloured shoes, one red and one black. These remained in place until 1014.[25]

    Following contemporary Shiite thinking, during this period al-Ḥākim also issued many other restrictive ordinances (sijillat). These sijill included outlawing entrance to a public bath with uncovered loins, forbidding women from appearing in public with their faces uncovered, and closing many clubs and places of entertainment.[22]

    Second period

    From 1007 to 1012 "there was a notably tolerant attitude toward the Sunnis and less zeal for Shiite Islam, while the attitude with regard to the 'People of the Book' was hostile."[22] On 18 October 1009, al- Hakim ordered the destruction of the Holy Sepulchre and its associated buildings, apparently outraged by what he regarded as the fraud practiced by the monks in the "miraculous" Descent of the Holy Fire, celebrated annually at the church during the Easter Vigil. The chronicler Yahia noted that "only those things that were too difficult to demolish were spared." Processions were prohibited, and a few years later all of the convents and churches in Palestine were said to have been destroyed or confiscated.[24] It was only in 1042 that the Byzantine Emperor Constantine IX undertook to reconstruct the Holy Sepulchre with the permission of Al-Hakim's successor..........


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Hakim_bi-Amr_Allah



  • About calls for reforming Islam
     Reply #37 - March 31, 2015, 04:41 PM
    Alhakim bi amrilah was a real nut case lol
  • About calls for reforming Islam
     Reply #38 - April 01, 2015, 11:05 AM
    Quote from: Hassan on March 31, 2015, 11:34 AM
    Yes perhaps, but I'm only talking about the short term, one or two generations, until things gradually start to change and Muslims can adjust and create a new identity that internalises more from the majority community. Having these people within the Muslum community rather than outside can help that change happen. In fact they may be key to change.

    I get you. One or two generations is nothing, especially when you consider that some communities have spent two or three strenuously avoiding assimilation.

    The daft thing is that assimilation isn't about loss, but gain - individuals are enriched by it, and so is wider society.  Which, I suspect is why the opposite winds me up so much.
  • About calls for reforming Islam
     Reply #39 - April 01, 2015, 11:24 AM
    Quote from: David on April 01, 2015, 11:05 AM
    The daft thing is that assimilation isn't about loss, but gain - individuals are enriched by it, and so is wider society.


    Absolutely!
  • About calls for reforming Islam
     Reply #40 - April 01, 2015, 05:31 PM
    bogart

    Are you sure that it wasn't 10 percent or even less that were christian when Constantine came to power. Considering that Christianity was made legal under him, and under later rulers ,the official and only legal religion, it would seem more likely that had more impact than the centuries of bottom up conversion before that.
  • About calls for reforming Islam
     Reply #41 - April 01, 2015, 08:28 PM
    It is hard to make estimates since data is largely confined to larger settlements in which structures and artifacts are numerous and easier to find. However I also did make an error. The population of the Eastern part of the Empire was around a 1/3 not the whole Empire. Most estimates can only use rare data from larger settlements like Rome and Antioch, 10+%. Beyond these example data is confined. There are the exchanges of texts and letters between Christians. These correspondence shows the expansion rate of the religion to different parts of the Empire. It also shows a level of expansion to the urban populations and upper/middle classes. Wealth was required for the religious leaders to dedicate their lives to the religion. For some they were already wealthy, for others they found wealthy patrons such as senators. Constantine's mother was a Christian herself. His father was in a position of influence before becoming a Caesar. Rural growth is hard to nail down directly since these settlements used various materials which would decay like wood rather than being persevered or durable such as stone. Urban centers did have a scattering of rural settlements in which a few Christian artifacts have been found such as around Cotiaeum and Eunemeia, which had Christian majorities. Expansion was limited to urban centers with it's rural settlements. It is rare to find even a minority in rural settlements any great distance from an urban center. Fural communicates just do not have the resources not traffic for the religion to take a strong, if any, hold. Other data which can only infer growth is based on the decline of "Pagan" sites. The 1/2 century before Constantine saw abandonment of temples and shrines with little growth of new sites to off set the decline. Conversion of sites to another religion was also not enough to offset the decline.  Also one must account for the purges and persecution of Christians for centuries in the Empire. Diocletian and Galerius were among the most violent of antagonists of Christianity, both ruled prior to Constantine. A number of Christians hid their religious views despite the martyr narrative in Christian history. Urban centers would have been the primary focus as rural purges would have required resources beyond the Empire. The continued existence of the religion in these urban centers is a note of surviving leadership. Without this leadership the religion would have died off. The rapid growth of Christianity during Constantine's reign and after can in part be open express of a faith hidden. Although this open display of faith can not account of the majority of the growth. Also consider the Council of Nicaea which occurred only 1 year after unification and 13 years after his first conflict with Maxentius with it's amount of attendees lends weight to the open displays rather than massive conversion in this 10 year window.

    I would put the numbers around 15+% considering the factors above. Monotheism in the Empire is a unified religion while polytheist was not. With this in mind Christianity was one of the major religions of the Empire when Constantine ruled.
  • About calls for reforming Islam
     Reply #42 - April 01, 2015, 09:36 PM
    Would you include those sects that would be considered as heresies by Council of Nicaea in the 15+%?
  • About calls for reforming Islam
     Reply #43 - April 02, 2015, 06:24 AM
    I am including all sects/divisions of Christianity
  • About calls for reforming Islam
     Reply #44 - April 08, 2015, 12:51 PM
    Tonyt
    The reason I mentioned the Ismailis is because they actually went through reformation and modernization.
  • About calls for reforming Islam
     Reply #45 - April 08, 2015, 01:20 PM
    Zaotor really does make the point here.
    Quote
    I think reform has to come from a place of real fervor, not a pragmatic watering-down.  So I'm not sure that there's much of a role for non-believers to play in the reform process.

    Martin Luther, for example, was far more religiously ardent than almost any of the Catholic establishment he was protesting.  That's why he protested -- he felt so intensely that the Catholic church had become an abomination that had deviated from the truth of the Bible.  The positive aspects of the Reformation came from that kind of consuming religious conviction and intensity, not sort of a pragmatic mellowing out.

    I suspect that Islamic reform would come from a similar place of religious intensity.  But I, as a non-believer, have no real idea what it would be.  I think that some things like the modern Muslim rejection of slavery as un-Islamic are good examples of parts of what such a reformation movement would look like --- grass roots, rejecting traditional scholarship, taking great liberties with the texts, not being consistent in how you cherry pick.  A sort of populist pious movement.

  • About calls for reforming Islam
     Reply #46 - April 15, 2015, 11:04 PM
    I really think that legitimacy is very important.Individuals who want to have a positive impact on the islamic world should have legitimacy.  About 10 years ago, Amina Wadud, decided to lead a mixed gender friday prayer. At the time, she faced criticism from the famous cleric Qaradawi. But she still had legitimacy as a muslim when he referenced her as a sister. Qaradawi holds mostly traditional views in Islamic law,which includes barbaric penal code, so he's by no means a liberal democrat. Yet, at the same event, there was Asra Nomani, who  doesn't have legitimacy within the muslim community. Over the years she seems to have been very isolated within the muslim community,with maybe few exceptions.  It also seems that she started to engage Islamic law in a different way, and she mentioned one of the few people that I think can impact the muslim world in a meaningful way. Her presence 10 years ago, when Amina Wadud lead friday prayer, was probably unhelpful. For a decade, Asra Nomani has  failed to launch any effective movement within the muslim community. For that reason, I hope she stays away, so that others that can have an impact don't lose legitimacy.
  • About calls for reforming Islam
     Reply #47 - April 15, 2015, 11:18 PM
    I've seen Zuhdi Jasser,Asra Nomani and Tarek Fatah, criticize Obama for not having a strategy or naming the problem. After 10 years of activism and media presence, how many muslims have joined their organizations?How many come to their events,whether demonstrations or religious gatherings etc?
  • About calls for reforming Islam
     Reply #48 - April 16, 2015, 01:41 AM
    Quote from: Skywalker on April 15, 2015, 11:18 PM
    I've seen Zuhdi Jasser,Asra Nomani and Tarek Fatah, criticize Obama for not having a strategy or naming the problem. After 10 years of activism and media presence, how many muslims have joined their organizations?How many come to their events,whether demonstrations or religious gatherings etc?

      Zuhdi Jasser,Asra Nomani and Tarek Fatah,  all are/were  shia Muslims... correct me if i am wrong....A classic example of the problems  people face for reforming Islam is  highlighted in the discussion under  Kashif Chaudhry's blog  that is being linked by  NeoApostate in another folder  
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • About calls for reforming Islam
     Reply #49 - April 16, 2015, 08:15 AM
    Quote from: Skywalker on March 25, 2015, 10:07 PM
    I dont understand how people can make the choice to make drastic new interpretations, if they aren't convinced that it is the correct interpretation in the first place.



    Exactly Sky, very good point. I think it shows how shallow their 'faith' really is (and based on the 'evidence' who can blame them?), that deep down they know it's probably nonsense, but just in case, they'll hang on to a few key elements, because Hell sounds so dreadful, it's worth the punt. It's almost like getting involved with a community who are really into historical reconstructions, or dungeons and dragons. At first it's fun, meeting new people who are interested in the same things, every weekend is looked forward to, likewise, the meet ups at the pub to discuss their obsession. Then, slowly, the newish recruit begins to realise his new friends ACTUALLY believe they are the real thing, not just paying lip service. S/he can now either declare that they also believe and take it to the next level...or, run away quickly, or just distance themselves a bit - as they don't want to lose the sense of community, so they cut back on the meet ups, but still trot out the sayings when necessary, and sometimes even wear the costumes at organised events. Madness.
    Ha Ha.
  • About calls for reforming Islam
     Reply #50 - April 16, 2015, 08:17 AM
    yeezevee
    Zuhdi Jasser and Tarek Fatah are Sunnis. I don't know whether Asra Nomani is born into a shia or sunni family. Eitherway, I don't think many sunni muslims care Mehdi Hasan is a shia, other than salafis.
  • About calls for reforming Islam
     Reply #51 - April 16, 2015, 09:17 AM
    Jack Torrance
    Thats one of the reasons they haven't been successful. After a decade of media presence you'd think that reformist liberal muslims would be joining their orginazations,their meetings and events. It seems that more journalists turn up to their demonstrations and events than muslims,and almost only nonmuslims seem to attend when they hold a public speech.

    I tend to think that Islam has been liberalizing and reforming in the US and much of the West since the 90s, just because of the general effect it has of living in those societies.The problem is that its like taking off a strait jacket,it comes with struggle, their avoiding that struggle and trying to use the short cut.

    When leaving Islam,it wasn't that I adopted liberal values,I had those values already, even when I was very religious .Those values kept pushing my interpretation of Islam in a liberal direction,but there was a limit.When a large group of muslims go through this, it can have a transformative effect over the decades, with confidence being built and the limit being pushed forward all the time.
  • About calls for reforming Islam
     Reply #52 - April 16, 2015, 03:14 PM
    Quote from: Skywalker on April 16, 2015, 08:17 AM
    yeezevee
    Zuhdi Jasser and Tarek Fatah are Sunnis.............

    well may you are right .. I know for sure Tarek Fatah married in shia family and Zuhdi Jasser  comes from a very well educated family from  Syrian Background...  So that was  the reason for my guess.. 

    Quote
    I don't think many sunni muslims care Mehdi Hasan is a shia, other than salafis. 

    that guy.. that guy will act like salafi in presence of salafi crowd ., Shia in fornt of shia crowd and sunni in front of sunni crowd.. He is an actor..  Well he is also changing as he learns more and more of Islam.. and that is a good thing...
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • About calls for reforming Islam
     Reply #53 - April 16, 2015, 05:30 PM
    "I don't think many sunni muslims care Mehdi Hasan is a shia, other than salafis. "

    "that guy.. that guy will act like salafi in presence of salafi crowd ., Shia in fornt of shia crowd and sunni in front of sunni crowd.. He is an actor..  Well he is also changing as he learns more and more of Islam.. and that is a good thing..."

    What do you mean, he can't be both? Are you saying he is an actor, playing up to whomever he is speaking to, or changing his views as he, erm, 'learns'? I will assume you're joking, and that you see him as the self-serving fraud he is.  Same as Majid Nawaz, who looks very much like Lucifer, with the little goatee, the nose, glowing red eyes, and even the clothes he wears. I can imagine him tucking his tail in to his trousers, and making sure his hooves are covered before shaking Nicky Campbell's hand. If I knew how to paste a picture of him in full Shaytan mode, I would, but I'm sure you can see him in your mind's eye, grinning at you, beckoning Smiley
    Ha Ha.
  • About calls for reforming Islam
     Reply #54 - June 13, 2015, 04:58 PM
    The whole idea of changing Quranic literalism and inerrancy  to Quran being inspired, seems to be a part of Manjis/Hirsis and maybe Maajid Nawaz strategy. The idea is  if muslims were to change their view of the Quran to something similar to how Christians view the Bible, then it would make the task of reform easier. What about the hadith then, which in Islam are not considered inerrant? And the words of the Prophet are considered in Islam to be inspired.The veil,stoning,fgm, death penalty for apostasy,death penalty for blasphemy, THE CONCEPT OF ABROGATION and the entire story the prophet is almost exclusively found in the hadith.
  • About calls for reforming Islam
     Reply #55 - June 13, 2015, 05:08 PM
    Quote from: Skywalker on June 13, 2015, 04:58 PM
    What about the hadith then, which in Islam are not considered inerrant?


    Actually you are wrong there Skywalker, most orthodox Sunni Muslims will consider an "authentic" hadith as being divinely inspired also - albeit not "literally god's words" but inspired by God nevertheless. As a result they are a considered inerrant and must be followed. They will only reject it if they can dismiss it's authenticity.
  • About calls for reforming Islam
     Reply #56 - June 13, 2015, 05:48 PM
    Hassan
    Before the whole thing becomes an issue of semantics, do you think there is an inerrant statement in either the Bible or the Quran?
  • About calls for reforming Islam
     Reply #57 - June 13, 2015, 05:57 PM
    No.
  • About calls for reforming Islam
     Reply #58 - June 13, 2015, 06:00 PM
    So if the Bible said that 1+1=2, is that an inerrant statement?
  • About calls for reforming Islam
     Reply #59 - June 13, 2015, 06:07 PM
    Yes.
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