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 Topic: Anti-Islam vs anti-Racism.... life in Australia

 (Read 16202 times)
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  • Anti-Islam vs anti-Racism.... life in Australia
     OP - April 05, 2015, 12:15 PM
    Anti-Islam vs anti-Racism in Australia ........rallies turn violent says news..

    Quote
    SHAFAQNA - Reclaim Australia protesters took the geographical higher ground in one of a number of Australia-wide protests opposing "sharia law, halal tax and Islamisation". Anti-racist protesters and other groups oppose their viewpoints.  A heavy police presence has managed to keep any clashes at bay in Sydney where anti-racist and anti-Islam groups have turned out.

    On either end of Martin Place, separated by a wall of police, anti-racist and anti-Islam protesters have faced off near the scene of last year's Lindt Cafe siege...........

      Published on Apr 4, 2015

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-e35D2xdrA

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIAcIvrnoQM

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EygihSbhZFM

    well that is what is going on in Kangaroo land..
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Anti-Islam vs anti-Racism.... life in Australia
     Reply #1 - April 05, 2015, 05:19 PM
    Islam = race?
    "we stand firm calling to allah all the time,
    we let them know - bang! bang! - coz it's dawah time!"
  • Anti-Islam vs anti-Racism.... life in Australia
     Reply #2 - April 05, 2015, 07:43 PM
    ^^^^^

    Some people do use it as a cover for racism.

    Here is the official OU definition:

    Quote
    Prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one’s own race is superior:


    But it has branched of into culture, religion and nationality.
    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Anti-Islam vs anti-Racism.... life in Australia
     Reply #3 - April 05, 2015, 08:28 PM
    Exactly. Criticizing Islam, even harshly, does not have anything to do with racism. But racist views and agendas do often come under the banner of anti-Islamic campaigns. As it usually is, the right answer is the hard answer: we have to be much more nuanced and much more specific, and look over these issues with a fine-toothed comb.

    Denying that some "critics of Islam" would be more appropriately described as racists and bigots who use the valid criticisms of Islam (and some not-so-valid criticisms of Islam) as scare tactics to demonize and marginalize Muslims is obviously not the answer; it needs to be addressed. But entertaining the idea that the critique of Islam is, itself, inherently racist, will be taking us in the completely wrong direction, and stomping on some people who are even more marginalized and demonized and just make everything an even mess.

    Unfortunately, this means a lot of double and triple-checking our language. It means correcting and distancing ourselves from people who really are bringing hatred of Muslims to the table. It means a lot of restating our positions, defining our terms clearly, and making sure we are always being fair. It's a pain in the ass, you're not gonna have a ton of supporters on either side, but it's the only right way to go.
  • Anti-Islam vs anti-Racism.... life in Australia
     Reply #4 - April 05, 2015, 08:30 PM
    Quote from: Jedi on April 05, 2015, 07:43 PM
    ^^^^^

    Some people do use it as a cover for racism.

    Here is the official OU definition:

    But it has branched of into culture, religion and nationality.


    Eh, I'm of the opinion some cultures/religions are better than others.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Anti-Islam vs anti-Racism.... life in Australia
     Reply #5 - April 05, 2015, 08:35 PM
     But are you prejudiced, discriminatory or antagonistic towards people that are different than you? This is directed at in general cases.

    Remember that religion, nationality and culture is casting your net very widely. I'd say some elements of culture and religion are better than others.
    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Anti-Islam vs anti-Racism.... life in Australia
     Reply #6 - April 05, 2015, 08:55 PM
    True, but you could make the argument that it goes hand in hand. In an overall sense, I find English culture superior to Saudi culture. I find Swedish culture superior to Russian culture. I find Turkish culture superior to Afghan culture. As for your comment on if I'm prejudiced, discriminatory or antagonistic towards people that are different than me, honestly it depends on what you mean. Do I find myself discriminating against someone because they don't have an Irish background? No. Someone who wasn't born in England? No. Someone who wasn't born with the same skin colour? No. Someone who is religious? No. Someone of the opposite sex? No. Someone who isn't heterosexual? No.

    However, could it still be said of me that I find myself prejudiced, discriminatory or antagonistic towards people that are different than me? Yes. Josef Fritzl is different from me and I find myself prejudiced, discriminatory AND antagonistic towards him. Other people I feel that way about because they are different than me would include Andy Choudary and his band of merry men, islamic state supporters, child abusers, white power nazis and there equivalent among other ethnicities, victim blamers, rape apologists, the list goes on. Now I think I have very good reasons for this, and I think the majority would agree with me, but it doesn't change the fact it's because they aren't like me. They repulse me.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Anti-Islam vs anti-Racism.... life in Australia
     Reply #7 - April 05, 2015, 09:10 PM
     
    Quote from: Jedi on April 05, 2015, 08:35 PM
    But are you prejudiced, discriminatory or antagonistic towards people that are different than you? This is directed at in general cases.

    Would it be prejudiced to say I loathe all neo-Nazis?
  • Anti-Islam vs anti-Racism.... life in Australia
     Reply #8 - April 05, 2015, 09:20 PM
    Yes.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Anti-Islam vs anti-Racism.... life in Australia
     Reply #9 - April 05, 2015, 09:40 PM
    Quote from: Descent on April 05, 2015, 09:10 PM
    Would it be prejudiced to say I loathe all neo-Nazis?


    Yes. Not a bad prejudice to have. Generalisations too are there to protect as well. Do I think that followers of Muhammad are more likely to do bad acts cause of his poor example? Yes. Thankfully the majority of Muslims know little or know a heavily sanitised version about Muhammads character from traditional accounts so pose little threat. Those who get really into I and are literalists however I am fine with disdaining.
  • Anti-Islam vs anti-Racism.... life in Australia
     Reply #10 - April 05, 2015, 09:45 PM
    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on April 05, 2015, 08:55 PM
    True, but you could make the argument that it goes hand in hand. In an overall sense, I find English culture superior to Saudi culture. I find Swedish culture superior to Russian culture. I find Turkish culture superior to Afghan culture. As for your comment on if I'm prejudiced, discriminatory or antagonistic towards people that are different than me, honestly it depends on what you mean. Do I find myself discriminating against someone because they don't have an Irish background? No. Someone who wasn't born in England? No. Someone who wasn't born with the same skin colour? No. Someone who is religious? No. Someone of the opposite sex? No. Someone who isn't heterosexual? No.

    However, could it still be said of me that I find myself prejudiced, discriminatory or antagonistic towards people that are different than me? Yes. Josef Fritzl is different from me and I find myself prejudiced, discriminatory AND antagonistic towards him. Other people I feel that way about because they are different than me would include Andy Choudary and his band of merry men, islamic state supporters, child abusers, white power nazis and there equivalent among other ethnicities, victim blamers, rape apologists, the list goes on. Now I think I have very good reasons for this, and I think the majority would agree with me, but it doesn't change the fact it's because they aren't like me. They repulse me.


    And those are specific cases which you've highlighted...the problem comes, as I stated,  when you say all white men are like Fritzl or say that all Muslims are culturally backwards like Choudhary. This is why blanket remarks, whilst time efficient reqire nuance.
    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Anti-Islam vs anti-Racism.... life in Australia
     Reply #11 - April 05, 2015, 09:46 PM
    Quote from: Descent on April 05, 2015, 09:10 PM
    Would it be prejudiced to say I loathe all neo-Nazis?


    You may loathe the ideology of say a neo-Nazi which is inherently racist. Do you know of neo-Nazis whose ideology of superiority over other races is absent?

    I don't loathe BNP or UKIP voters, but I do loathe certain elements of their ideology.
    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Anti-Islam vs anti-Racism.... life in Australia
     Reply #12 - April 05, 2015, 10:01 PM
    Quote from: Jedi on April 05, 2015, 09:45 PM
    And those are specific cases which you've highlighted...the problem comes, as I stated,  when you say all white men are like Fritzl or say that all Muslims are culturally backwards like Choudhary. This is why blanket remarks, whilst time efficient reqire nuance.

    Obviously, but it doesn't change the fact it's them being so unlike me (in my eyes, scum at best, evil at worst) that makes me view them the way I do. Namely, in a way that it prejudiced, discriminatory or antagonistic, if not all three.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Anti-Islam vs anti-Racism.... life in Australia
     Reply #13 - April 05, 2015, 10:10 PM
    That's true but nothing to do with the point I was making. When you are prejudiced, discriminatory and antagonistic against something in general...

    I'm discriminate against murders and say they should be jailed thus depriving them of some aspects of their human rights but that's different from saying only black murderers should be jailed beacuse they're inferior to white murderers.

    Nuanced means being selective: but when people talk about Muslims this or that they're not being selective (overtly) and say stupid shit. I hate aspects of Pakistani culture but not all of it. In reality no one culture, religion is completely superior to another because within cultures there are sub-cultures. Pakistani culture to a villager in Gujranwalla is different to Pakistani culture to a person in Lahore. Generealisations are too vague and easily fall apart.
    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Anti-Islam vs anti-Racism.... life in Australia
     Reply #14 - April 05, 2015, 10:46 PM
    And again I agree but I can still say that overall I view one thing as better than another. For instance, while there are islamic teachings I find worthy of praise, as a whole I find humanism superior to islam. I find the paganic teachings of sex (a beautiful thing, an act of worship etc) superior to the abrahamic teachings of sex (dirty, sinful, something to be fought against until marriage) and would hazard a guess the majority from one side will be far more adjusted and have a much healthier attitude than the majority on the other side. And yes, I'm throwing billions of people in there based on their religions.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Anti-Islam vs anti-Racism.... life in Australia
     Reply #15 - April 05, 2015, 11:10 PM
    Yup! Its called being realistic!
  • Anti-Islam vs anti-Racism.... life in Australia
     Reply #16 - April 05, 2015, 11:21 PM
    Quote from: kephas on April 05, 2015, 05:19 PM
    Islam = race?


    I'm a little tired of seeing people point out that islam is not a race as if we don't know that.

    And as if some racists don't use attacks on Islam as a thin disguise for their racism and attacks on Muslim themselves.

    The EDL protesters who shouted No Sharia while tossing bricks through Muslim owned businesses will also gleefully tell you "Islam is not a race"
  • Anti-Islam vs anti-Racism.... life in Australia
     Reply #17 - April 06, 2015, 02:29 AM
    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on April 05, 2015, 10:46 PM
    ...................... For instance, while there are islamic teachings I find worthy of praise, as a whole I find humanism superior to islam.......................

      type away some  islamic teachings  that you  find worthy of praise QSE.... that will be useful to reader..

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTjHf77FqTI

    so which one of those guys are NOT racists??
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Anti-Islam vs anti-Racism.... life in Australia
     Reply #18 - April 06, 2015, 02:36 AM
    The islamic emphasis on charity immediately comes to mind.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Anti-Islam vs anti-Racism.... life in Australia
     Reply #19 - April 06, 2015, 07:11 AM
    Well I took a look at their website and facebook page. It seems that they're inclusive of Australians of all backgrounds.

    Quote
    This will be a peaceful rally, Neo-Nazi/White Supremacist Banners/Placards will not be tolerated. This is not a supremacist rally, it will simply be Patriotic Australians of all nationalities & beliefs standing united against radical extremism! 

    http://www.reclaim-australia.com/home.html


    Quote
    Are you welcome at this rally??? Did you or your Family migrate here from Europe, the Middle East, Asia & love this Country, it's culture & respect it's Laws? You already know you're Australian.
    Are you, or members of your family members of our Indigenous Community...love this Country & respect it's laws? You are Australian,.
    Are you a descendant of convicts? But love, respect & value our laws & culture? You are Australian!

    https://www.facebook.com/page/about.php?id=762398587169729&refid=17


    it seems that they're overtly nationalistic, but not racist. Or is this taqiyya on their part?
    "we stand firm calling to allah all the time,
    we let them know - bang! bang! - coz it's dawah time!"
  • Anti-Islam vs anti-Racism.... life in Australia
     Reply #20 - April 06, 2015, 07:56 AM
    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on April 05, 2015, 10:46 PM
    And again I agree but I can still say that overall I view one thing as better than another. For instance, while there are islamic teachings I find worthy of praise, as a whole I find humanism superior to islam.


    True...but humanism and Islam are not a fair comparison. Humanism has no founder, no doctrine, no rituals etc whereas Islam has these a plenty. Humanism is more of a very loose philosophical outlook whereas Islam seeks to impose an Islamic state thanks to the Almighty and his Messenger.

    We can do this with almost every culture, religion etc that's out there. I think it's time to be sensible and not dilute this issue because racism is a very serious isssue and I'm not saying that you're doing it. But there are people who use culture and nationality to think they are better than others. Some Saudi's hate Pakistanis and Bangladeshi's and treat them like crap. The good old British empire thought they were culturally superior to others and they despised African culture as having bought nothing of worth to the people, despite having abandoned all race-based theories. Racism is a broader issue than race. To look at a definition and apply it to one's own life and say 'well I have no problem here' or 'I hate so-and-so and I'm not racist' isn't reaally representative of the experiences of the great sea of humanity out there nor were such definitions created out of a historical and social context. it gets compicated but that's why, as I stated previously, it requires nuance and specificity.
    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Anti-Islam vs anti-Racism.... life in Australia
     Reply #21 - April 06, 2015, 08:01 AM
    Quote from: yeezevee on April 06, 2015, 02:29 AM
      type away some  islamic teachings  that you  find worthy of praise QSE.... that will be useful to reader..


    We're playing a dangerous game to suggest that something ahs no redeemable values...

    1. As QUOD said the emphasis on charity...
    2. Respect for your family....
    3. Not seeing everything as a 'sex object'....
    4. I actually like the idea behind regulating polygamy and slavery - this was a great step forward - ....
    5. The hatred of racism and nationalism....
    6. The spiritual element of Islam that would later be exploited by Sufis...
    7. Certain aspects of Muhammad's life in which he fed and cared for the poor...
    8. Emphasis on personal hygiene

    I'm not arguing that eny of these are EXCLUSIVE to Islam but theya re praiseworthy for their time and within the vicinity in which they were introduced non-the less
    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Anti-Islam vs anti-Racism.... life in Australia
     Reply #22 - April 06, 2015, 08:08 AM
    Ikebal Patel the president of the Australian federation of Islamic councils has made numerous submissions to parliament to consider sharia law in what he calls legal pluralism.

    If I look at Maryam's one law for all campaign in the UK I think we should never give an inch on religious laws, it's a concern the president of the AFIC is asking for them.

    Article 18 of the UDHR says believing in fairy tales is a human right, we cannot stop people believing in fairy tales.






  • Anti-Islam vs anti-Racism.... life in Australia
     Reply #23 - April 06, 2015, 04:48 PM
    Quote from: Jedi on April 06, 2015, 08:01 AM
    3. Not seeing everything as a 'sex object'....

    You're joking right?

    Jedi, would you say I was racist if I said it's more likely that someone from the middle east is more sexist than someone from North Europe?
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Anti-Islam vs anti-Racism.... life in Australia
     Reply #24 - April 06, 2015, 06:02 PM
    Quote from: Jedi on April 06, 2015, 08:01 AM
    We're playing a dangerous game to suggest that something ahs no redeemable values...

    Quote
    1. As QUOD said the emphasis on charity...
    2. Respect for your family....
    3. Not seeing everything as a 'sex object'....
    4. I actually like the idea behind regulating polygamy and slavery - (at that time) this was a great step forward - ....
    5. The hatred of racism and nationalism....
    6. The spiritual element of Islam that would later be exploited by Sufis...
    7. Certain aspects of Muhammad's life in which he fed and cared for the poor...
    8. Emphasis on personal hygiene


    I'm not arguing that any of these are EXCLUSIVE to Islam but they are praiseworthy for their time and within the vicinity in which they were introduced non-the less

    Well Jedi.,   they are all important points for any progressive society so add more.  But if they are NOT EXCLUSIVE to Islam then they are NOT Islamic teachings.  And  what  dangerous game are we playing by highlighting the  teaching that are exclusive to   Islam?  

    It is OK   if they are not specific to Islam because  the advertisements,  ideas, story narratives   in the present Islamic societies  is,   "that they were indeed  specific during Muhammad's time in the society where he grew up."

    "Arabs and Muslim in a brief Historical account" by Ahmed Mansour
     
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Anti-Islam vs anti-Racism.... life in Australia
     Reply #25 - April 06, 2015, 06:21 PM
    Quote from: Jedi on April 06, 2015, 08:01 AM
    5. The hatred of racism and nationalism....

    *cough* Ummah *cough*
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Anti-Islam vs anti-Racism.... life in Australia
     Reply #26 - April 06, 2015, 06:46 PM
    Quote
    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on April 06, 2015, 06:21 PM
    *cough* Ummah *cough*

    Quote from: yeezevee on April 06, 2015, 06:02 PM
    ....... 5. The hatred of racism and nationalism....

     

    well QSE i highlighted those two words of Jedi  because I am not sure he thought about them carefully. It appears he just scribbled whatever came to his mind..  

    Anwar Shaikh of England  somewhere explained how Islam is a Arab National movement .. I don't have a link but sure Google god will help the readers..

    I think this racist views, racist attitudes and  this racism is a recent construct of human society probably after 12th century and it became versatile tool to exploit colored people from 16th century on-wards. I don't think it was there during the time of Muhammad or Jesus or Moses  as I can see there were African Popes in the history before Islam..
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Anti-Islam vs anti-Racism.... life in Australia
     Reply #27 - April 06, 2015, 07:42 PM
    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on April 06, 2015, 04:48 PM
    You're joking right?

    Jedi, would you say I was racist if I said it's more likely that someone from the middle east is more sexist than someone from North Europe?


    No I'm not joking at all...when I was Muslim I got it that women whouldn't be seen as sexual objects and when you speak to some Muslim women who have converted or are Muslim etc. they get that too. This is ebcause the Islam I followed and the Muhammad I followed would talk so much about spirituality. I never went looking for it but it felt like a breath of fresh air in a material and superficial driven soceity I was living in. There are other aspects of Islam relating to women that I would deem as regressive today (perhaps then too) and harmful to society. But to ignore that there are elements of Islam that both men and women find empowering is silly to put it mildly. Please try to sahre other peoples experiences and be open minded to how others view Islam and experience it as a source of liebration. That they dispose of the less appealing aspects of Islam - well good for them. We will never engage with each other if we view others through out limited prism of experience as I've previously stated in another post.

    Why am I all of a sudden Judge Dredd in this situation? What would your finals statement be based on? Did you actually take time to understand the responses I gave to you or are your purposely being pedantic and flippant?
    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Anti-Islam vs anti-Racism.... life in Australia
     Reply #28 - April 06, 2015, 07:47 PM
    Quote from: yeezevee on April 06, 2015, 06:46 PM

    well QSE i highlighted those two words of Jedi  because I am not sure he thought about them carefully. It appears he just scribbled whatever came to his mind..  


    I see ... put up a thought that does not comply with you it's just put out there aimlessly without thought?

    Islam is one of the most open faiths I'd come across and spoken to people about. That it is prejudiced to non-Muslims is entirely different. And of course there's no nationalism in Islam.

    QUOD...Ummah is not the same as nationality. That's why when I went to Muslim circles they said we are all Muslim and Arab, Paksitani, English second. Try to udnerstand this experience of others. I could call you out on your charity becasue the charity could said to be limited to Muslims...but I never saw it like that.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Anti-Islam vs anti-Racism.... life in Australia
     Reply #29 - April 06, 2015, 08:04 PM
    Hmm.. Let me push Jedi in to a corner here . I do that all the time  
    Quote from: Jedi on April 06, 2015, 07:47 PM
    I see ... put up a thought that does not comply with you it's just put out there aimlessly without thought?

    well Jedi.,  that is one way to put it,  the other way is you disagree with what I said.

    Quote
    Islam is one of the most open faiths I'd come across and spoken to people about. That it is prejudiced to non-Muslims is entirely different.  

     Jedi, the fact you write both statements in one line tells that Islam is NOT a open faith., If faith is  prejudiced against other faiths or worse other people(non-Muslims) means it is neither  a open faith nor open minded.
    Quote
    And of course there's no nationalism in Islam..........

     off course there was and there is.,  in every way it is Arab nationalism even in its language and dress code. The fact those Muslim folks who can not read Quran in Arabic relegated  to 2nd rated Muslims in so-called Arab nations   means it is Arab nationalism.  Now this "Islam being Arab Nationalism" may not fit during Muhammad's time as I do not consider Muhammad as a relevant figure for Islam. (May be Muhammad was Not even a real character).  But if I look in to the  history of Islam after that alleged death of Muhammad to  all the way to 15th century  it is indeed a disguised Arab Nationalism..

    now ball is in your court Jedi..  
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
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