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Theme Changer

 Topic: The Wisdom of the Koran

 (Read 8509 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • The Wisdom of the Koran
     OP - April 07, 2015, 02:25 PM

    I keep hearing people say how the Koran contains beauty and wisdom, but the thing is, I can't find it. Please, can someone quote a wise and beautiful passage. Much appreciated.




    Ha Ha.
  • The Wisdom of the Koran
     Reply #1 - April 07, 2015, 04:19 PM

    The quran says some things about being good and just. However, the way it defines what is good (treating your fellow muslims with respect, not being friends with disbelievers, blindly obeying the messenger) and just (cutting off body parts for stealing, treating women as lower than men) completely negates the wisdom of these verses.

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • The Wisdom of the Koran
     Reply #2 - April 07, 2015, 04:46 PM

    I keep hearing people say how the Koran contains beauty and wisdom, but the thing is, I can't find it. Please, can someone quote a wise and beautiful passage. Much appreciated.


    Repeat a lie often enough...

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • The Wisdom of the Koran
     Reply #3 - April 07, 2015, 05:05 PM

    Wise, eh, but...I actually like this one. Probably the least offensive surah you could ask for.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5oPi3BXOSI
  • The Wisdom of the Koran
     Reply #4 - April 07, 2015, 05:56 PM

    Wise, eh, but...I actually like this one. Probably the least offensive surah you could ask for.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5oPi3BXOSI

    hmm..  you like that because it is least offensive surah??  toothless surah?  Not because  it has wisdom  and not because it guides human society??

    You are offending some people lua.,    I  like that surah because it is one of the smallest..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • The Wisdom of the Koran
     Reply #5 - April 07, 2015, 06:07 PM

    Repeat a lie often enough...


    "In the Name of Allah, the Most Merciful, the Most Kind Repeat a lie often  people will believe you"

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • The Wisdom of the Koran
     Reply #6 - April 07, 2015, 06:41 PM

    hmm..  you like that because it is least offensive surah??  toothless surah?  Not because  it has wisdom  and not because it guides human society??

    You are offending some people lua.,    I  like that surah because it is one of the smallest..


    The brevity is nice, too. Grin
  • The Wisdom of the Koran
     Reply #7 - April 07, 2015, 07:26 PM

    The quran says some things about being good and just. However, the way it defines what is good (treating your fellow muslims with respect, not being friends with disbelievers, blindly obeying the messenger) and just (cutting off body parts for stealing, treating women as lower than men) completely negates the wisdom of these verses.


    It does a bit, doesn't it! But even the 'nice bits' are little more than what you'd fine in those 'simple wisdom' type books, or the stuff you're taught in primary school RE lessons. So yeah, what negates the nice bits, is absolutely all the rest of it, which means you'd have to be pretty determined (for whatever reason that might be) to describe the Koran as a book that contains beautiful wisdom. A bit like praising the perfect grammatical sequences of a Katie Price novel.

    Ha Ha.
  • The Wisdom of the Koran
     Reply #8 - April 07, 2015, 07:39 PM

    I feel that the main reason why we often hear muslims talk about how "beautiful" the koran is is because like asbie said, they're told over and over again how it's beautiful that they actually believe it. So we have billions of people thinking that the koran is the most beautiful literary piece ever to exist, yet they never understand a word of it.

    reading the koran is boring as heck. It's repetitive, unstructured, and the arguments used by the authors are immature.

    Anecdotally, I realise that one of the chapters muslims like to rave on about as example of the "beauty" of the koran is ar rahman. But I think it's that one verse repeating over and over again that makes them think so. Being repeated over and over again, it makes the chapter recognisable to muslims, so when thinking of an example of which chapter is an example of the so called beauty, it pops up in their heads, "ah, ar rahman!"

    The other thing that causes them to believe so is that they're recited in a melodic manner by men with good voices. Think of shaykhs like sudais, al afasy, al ghamdi, etc. Muslims think that they're moved by the recitations because of the koran's claimed beauty, but really they just like melodic tunes sung by good voices.

    Regarding the "wisdom" or "good" that's in the koran, i'm reminded by that quote that the ex pope ratzinger brought up in his then controversial speech. He quoted some byzantine emperor: "Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." So was the koran. What was good in it was not new, and what was new in it was not good. And as justperusing said, the meaning of "good" was just perverted in the koran.

    "we stand firm calling to allah all the time,
    we let them know - bang! bang! - coz it's dawah time!"
  • The Wisdom of the Koran
     Reply #9 - April 07, 2015, 07:47 PM

    ..........................which means you'd have to be pretty determined (for whatever reason that might be) to describe the Koran as a book that contains beautiful wisdom. ..................

    Well   people  often  say that without reading it  .."It is predetermined"  .. See how beautiful they look.... ..    hmm very hypnotic..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • The Wisdom of the Koran
     Reply #10 - April 07, 2015, 07:53 PM

    For me, it’s not so much the book as a whole that I find beautiful.  It is the anecdotal way, especially in Arabic, that you can work verses into conversation to illustrate a point. Of course, the wisdom in those verses may not be unique to the Qur’an, but like a familiar song lyric or poem, the verses of the Qur’an can be used pertinently in conversation. So, for example, even though I do have hatred of certain elements of the Qur’an, I might say, “And don’t let your hatred of a people keep you from dealing justly. Be Just! It is closer to piety.”

    Or, sometimes when I find myself wasting food or money, I’ll mumble “Verily, the wasters are brothers of the devils,” or “Don’t allow your hand to become chained to your neck (in spending), nor extend it to its fullest reach.”

    Or, when someone unexpectedly teaches me something new that I thought I had completely understood, I might say, “And above every knowledgeable one is one with more knowledge.” When someone thoroughly pisses me off, I might say, “Those who contain their anger and pardon the people” or “Pardon, enjoin good, and abstain from the ignorant.

    There are even entire surahs that I quite like. Surah Duha, for example is one of my favorites. I don’t view it as only directed towards Muhammad, though. I think it’s ok for any human being to think that God (or the universe, the forces of life, etc) do not hate him or her, and that the end will be better for them than the beginning.

    It’s much like the way that in English, parts of the King James Bible roll off of our tongues without us deliberately noticing it. “There is nothing new under the sun.” “You reap what you sow.” Etc.

    And so on and so forth. I’m not giving you these examples only for the sake of argument.  This is actually how the Qur’an still rolls off of my tongue today. It is engrained in me in a way that would not be engrained in someone who was never a Muslim.
  • The Wisdom of the Koran
     Reply #11 - April 08, 2015, 03:11 PM

    For me, it’s not so much the book as a whole that I find beautiful.  It is the anecdotal way, especially in Arabic, that you can work verses into conversation to illustrate a point. Of course, the wisdom in those verses may not be unique to the Qur’an, but like a familiar song lyric or poem, the verses of the Qur’an can be used pertinently in conversation. So, for example, even though I do have hatred of certain elements of the Qur’an, I might say, “And don’t let your hatred of a people keep you from dealing justly. Be Just! It is closer to piety.”

    Or, sometimes when I find myself wasting food or money, I’ll mumble “Verily, the wasters are brothers of the devils,” or “Don’t allow your hand to become chained to your neck (in spending), nor extend it to its fullest reach.”

    Or, when someone unexpectedly teaches me something new that I thought I had completely understood, I might say, “And above every knowledgeable one is one with more knowledge.” When someone thoroughly pisses me off, I might say, “Those who contain their anger and pardon the people” or “Pardon, enjoin good, and abstain from the ignorant.

    There are even entire surahs that I quite like. Surah Duha, for example is one of my favorites. I don’t view it as only directed towards Muhammad, though. I think it’s ok for any human being to think that God (or the universe, the forces of life, etc) do not hate him or her, and that the end will be better for them than the beginning.

    It’s much like the way that in English, parts of the King James Bible roll off of our tongues without us deliberately noticing it. “There is nothing new under the sun.” “You reap what you sow.” Etc.

    And so on and so forth. I’m not giving you these examples only for the sake of argument.  This is actually how the Qur’an still rolls off of my tongue today. It is engrained in me in a way that would not be engrained in someone who was never a Muslim.



    Well put, HM  Smiley
  • The Wisdom of the Koran
     Reply #12 - April 08, 2015, 04:16 PM

    For me, it’s not so much the book as a whole that I find beautiful.  It is the anecdotal way, especially in Arabic, that you can work verses into conversation to illustrate a point. Of course, the wisdom in those verses may not be unique to the Qur’an, but like a familiar song lyric or poem, the verses of the Qur’an can be used pertinently in conversation. So, for example, even though I do have hatred of certain elements of the Qur’an, I might say, “And don’t let your hatred of a people keep you from dealing justly. Be Just! It is closer to piety.”

    Or, sometimes when I find myself wasting food or money, I’ll mumble “Verily, the wasters are brothers of the devils,” or “Don’t allow your hand to become chained to your neck (in spending), nor extend it to its fullest reach.”

    Or, when someone unexpectedly teaches me something new that I thought I had completely understood, I might say, “And above every knowledgeable one is one with more knowledge.” When someone thoroughly pisses me off, I might say, “Those who contain their anger and pardon the people” or “Pardon, enjoin good, and abstain from the ignorant.

    There are even entire surahs that I quite like. Surah Duha, for example is one of my favorites. I don’t view it as only directed towards Muhammad, though. I think it’s ok for any human being to think that God (or the universe, the forces of life, etc) do not hate him or her, and that the end will be better for them than the beginning.

    It’s much like the way that in English, parts of the King James Bible roll off of our tongues without us deliberately noticing it. “There is nothing new under the sun.” “You reap what you sow.” Etc.

    And so on and so forth. I’m not giving you these examples only for the sake of argument.  This is actually how the Qur’an still rolls off of my tongue today. It is engrained in me in a way that would not be engrained in someone who was never a Muslim.




    Thanks for the reply, that's been the best attempt so far, but still no direct quotation, just an explanation of why it is beautiful and wise - which is always what I get. This is a perfect opportunity for someone who sees this famed beauty to really sock it to me.....go on Hass, don't just agree with happy murtad, let me ponder the beautiful wisdom myself, I beseech you! 


    Ha Ha.
  • The Wisdom of the Koran
     Reply #13 - April 08, 2015, 04:19 PM

    Umm, everything I put in quotation marks were direct quotations.
  • The Wisdom of the Koran
     Reply #14 - April 08, 2015, 04:27 PM

    Umm, everything I put in quotation marks were direct quotations.


     Cheesy
  • The Wisdom of the Koran
     Reply #15 - April 08, 2015, 05:17 PM

    Umm, everything I put in quotation marks were direct quotations.


    Sorry, I didn't realise they were Koranic quotes, (or at least I thought 'He's surely not using these as examples?') but ok, do you honestly consider these to be beautiful quotes full of wisdom? Especially considering the vast pantheon of literature the world has to choose from, if they were wanting some prima facie evidence of beautiful wisdom. But each to their own. The greek will inherit the Earth,

     “Verily, the wasters are brothers of the devils,” or “Don’t allow your hand to become chained to your neck (in spending), nor extend it to its fullest reach.”

    “And above every knowledgeable one is one with more knowledge.”  “Those who contain their anger and pardon the people” or “Pardon, enjoin good, and abstain from the ignorant.




    Ha Ha.
  • The Wisdom of the Koran
     Reply #16 - April 08, 2015, 05:44 PM

    When translating poetry, meaning,rhythm,cultural context and style is lost.If the translator doesn't put any effort into it, that maybe even more likely.The question is if the Quran reads in english as it does in arabic.As Im no speaker in arabic, I can't confirm.
  • The Wisdom of the Koran
     Reply #17 - April 08, 2015, 05:56 PM

    For me, it’s not so much the book as a whole that I find beautiful.  It is the anecdotal way, especially in Arabic, that you can work verses into conversation to illustrate a point. Of course, the wisdom in those verses may not be unique to the Qur’an, but like a familiar song lyric or poem, the verses of the Qur’an can be used pertinently in conversation. So, for example, even though I do have hatred of certain elements of the Qur’an, I might say, “And don’t let your hatred of a people keep you from dealing justly. Be Just! It is closer to piety.”

    Or, sometimes when I find myself wasting food or money, I’ll mumble “Verily, the wasters are brothers of the devils,” or “Don’t allow your hand to become chained to your neck (in spending), nor extend it to its fullest reach.”

    Or, when someone unexpectedly teaches me something new that I thought I had completely understood, I might say, “And above every knowledgeable one is one with more knowledge.” When someone thoroughly pisses me off, I might say, “Those who contain their anger and pardon the people” or “Pardon, enjoin good, and abstain from the ignorant.

    There are even entire surahs that I quite like. Surah Duha, for example is one of my favorites. I don’t view it as only directed towards Muhammad, though. I think it’s ok for any human being to think that God (or the universe, the forces of life, etc) do not hate him or her, and that the end will be better for them than the beginning.

    It’s much like the way that in English, parts of the King James Bible roll off of our tongues without us deliberately noticing it. “There is nothing new under the sun.” “You reap what you sow.” Etc.

    And so on and so forth. I’m not giving you these examples only for the sake of argument.  This is actually how the Qur’an still rolls off of my tongue today. It is engrained in me in a way that would not be engrained in someone who was never a Muslim.



    Absolutely fantastic. Arabic literature owes so many debts to the Quran, if Islam disappeared tomorrow I would hope that study of the Quran would never cease.

    إطلب العلم ولو في الصين

    Es sitzt keine Krone so fest und so hoch,
    Der mutige Springer erreicht sie doch.

    I don't give a fuck about your war, or your President.
  • The Wisdom of the Koran
     Reply #18 - April 08, 2015, 06:03 PM

    Sorry, I didn't realise they were Koranic quotes, (or at least I thought 'He's surely not using these as examples?') but ok, do you honestly consider these to be beautiful quotes full of wisdom? Especially considering the vast pantheon of literature the world has to choose from, if they were wanting some prima facie evidence of beautiful wisdom. But each to their own. The greek will inherit the Earth,

     “Verily, the wasters are brothers of the devils,” or “Don’t allow your hand to become chained to your neck (in spending), nor extend it to its fullest reach.”

    “And above every knowledgeable one is one with more knowledge.”  “Those who contain their anger and pardon the people” or “Pardon, enjoin good, and abstain from the ignorant.






    I’m going to assume you are not deliberately missing the point here. I’ve already said that I don’t think the wisdom found in the Qur’an is necessarily unique to it. However, with the Qur’an being an incredibly important piece of human literature, particularly Arabic literature, and with me being a person who has studied Arabic and the Qur’an with an intense passion, I cannot help but to appreciate and identify with those elements of the book that I agree with.

    With its widely recognizable style and structure, the Qur’an is easily peppered throughout conversation to illustrate a point. That is one of its strengths and its weaknesses. Those who will naturally gravitate towards the good bits might be quick to quote things like “there is no compulsion in religion,” or, “When you judge between the people, judge with justice” or “God loves those who do good.” The poetic language of the Qur’an makes those points resonate even more with the audience.

     At the same time, those with an inclination towards the nasty parts will cherry-pick things like “Kill them wherever you find them” or “don’t let compassion sway you in implementing the religion of Allah” or “Fight them! God will punish them with your hands.”

    Most people don’t recite the Qur’an cover to cover. They pick out a verse or a set of verses that supports their point, then move on with their argument from there. Just like most people probably don’t spend their time reading Shakespeare, but might readily say something like, “That which we call a rose by any other word would smell as sweet.”

    People who may never have read the full Declaration of Independence are still likely to recognize, “We hold these truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal.” Is that line profoundly and uniquely wise and beautiful on its own? Not really. But a good orator, like, say, a young African American civil rights leader, might sprinkle that line into a speech for resounding effect.  It really doesn’t matter that the same document refers to Native Americans as “merciless Indian savages.”
  • The Wisdom of the Koran
     Reply #19 - April 08, 2015, 06:15 PM

    which reminds me mr happymurtad
    ''O you who believe! Why do you say that which you do not do?''(61:2)

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=27685.msg815293;topicseen#new

    It would be interesting to have someone who studied in Madinah.
  • The Wisdom of the Koran
     Reply #20 - April 08, 2015, 06:17 PM

     Cheesy "Wa laa taqulanna li shay'in innee faa'ilun thaalika ghadan, illa an yashaa' Allah."

    "Say not of a thing, 'surely I will do that tomorrow' unless (you also say) if Allah wills it"
  • The Wisdom of the Koran
     Reply #21 - April 08, 2015, 08:45 PM

    I’m going to assume you are not deliberately missing the point here. I’ve already said that I don’t think the wisdom found in the Qur’an is necessarily unique to it. However, with the Qur’an being an incredibly important piece of human literature, particularly Arabic literature, a................

    With its widely recognizable style and structure, the Qur’an is easily peppered throughout conversation to illustrate a point. That is one of its strengths and its weaknesses. Those who will naturally gravitate towards the good bits might be quick to quote things like “there is no compulsion in religion,” or, “When you judge between the people, judge with justice” or “God loves those who do good.” The poetic language of the Qur’an makes those points resonate even more with the audience.
    .................

    .....Ohyee murtad
    it is all good
    except the word " "incredibly"
    Poems, poets, sonnets and songs
    choose the words   wisely  
    choose the words with passion
    and choose the words with rhymes
    it is important literature
    it sounds soothing
    but it is just a sonnet
    just a song
    nothing more nothing less  ... 

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqZwiBTUH9M

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UE8M2vtAkJ0

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • The Wisdom of the Koran
     Reply #22 - April 10, 2015, 02:46 PM

    So wisdom... wisdom in  the world religions and their scriptures.. Wisdom in sayings of   a former Egyptian prince later turned in to  prophet Moses.,  sayings of Jesus of Nazareth later turned   in to Prophet Christ..sayings of of Arabian Pagan  Abū al-Qāsim   Abd al-Muṭṭalib Muhammad later turned in to prophet Muhammad.. Wisdom in  sayings of The prophet Zarathustra..and then you have Wisdom in  sayings of host of gods..goddesses.. prophets and poppers across the globe from all sorts of pagans .. Off course you also have wisdom in sayings of Buddha or in sayings of Confucius..and host of others  So  

    .........Wisdom Everywhere It leaks from every hole....

    Now a day's wisdom gets published in news papers from preachers of religions. So today's wisdom is  this.. read it from link and that comes from this man..



    It says...  
    Quote
    مفتي السعودية ينفي اصدار فتوى تبيح أكل الرجل لزوجته في حال الجوع الشديد
    APRIL 8, 2015

    ندن ـ نفى مفتي السعودية الشيخ عبدالعزيز بن عبدالله آل الشيخ، اصدار فتوى عن إجازة “أكل لحم المرأة في حال الجوع الشديد”. ونقلت “العربية نت” عن وكالة الأنباء السعودية “واس″ تأكيد المفتي أن ما نسب إليه من قول ما هو إلا من الأراجيف التي يهدف من خلالها الأعداء إلى إشغال المجتمع عن قضيتهم الأساس في هذا الوقت، وهي التلاحم والوقوف خلف القيادة الرشيدة ضد محاولات النيل من تشتيت الأمة.

    ونقلت “واس″ عن المفتي قوله “إن ما نسب إلينا من فتوى مغلوطة ما هو إلا كذب وافتراء جملة وتفصيلاً، ويأتي في سياق تشويه صورة الإسلام الذي أعلى شأن الإنسان وكرّمه دون استثناء رجلاً كان أو امرأة، وحافظ على حقوقه في دينه ونفسه وعقله وعرضه”، مستشهدا بقول الله تعالى (يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آَمَنُوا إِنْ جَاءَكُمْ فَاسِقٌ بِنَبَأٍ فَتَبَيَّنُوا أَنْ تُصِيبُوا قَوْمًا بِجَهَالَةٍ فَتُصْبِحُوا عَلَى مَا فَعَلْتُمْ نَادِمِينَ).

    وكانت مواقع التواصل الاجتماعي شهدت جدلا كبيرا، واستنكارا واستغرابا، وبالأخص على موقع “تويتر” الذي ينشط فيه المستخدمون السعوديون الذين عبروا عن صدمتهم من هذه الفتوى الغريبة العجيبة. وفي حين هاجم العديد من المعلقين المفتي، الا ان معظم المعلقين والمغردين، انكروها وكذبوها مؤكدين ان لا اساس لهذه الفتوى، التي لم تدرج في الموقع الرسمي للمفت  ..

    Not sure where and when  that fellow said that., I can not get the tube on that but ...Oh  well..... man eating woman .. woman eating man.. if it is fun it is all good.... it is all fun ..  that is today's wisdom   ..let me watch this ..

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMofW5G2DR0

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • The Wisdom of the Koran
     Reply #23 - April 10, 2015, 04:31 PM

    Afro


    Nice explanation HM. It is pretty ironic that the best explanation for the beauty and wisdom of the Quran actually came from an apostate. Why can't many actual Muslims give an explanation like that? When I ask that question to Muslims they usually just copy paste a linguistic miracle from Hamza Tzortis or Norman Ali Khan without even thinking about it themselves.
  • The Wisdom of the Koran
     Reply #24 - April 10, 2015, 04:49 PM

    For what it's worth, it strikes me that many Muslims are so committed to a dogmatic understanding of the Qur'an as "beautiful and inimitable" that they obscure its actual beauty (which HM has wonderfully explained) behind that crude theological dogma.

    In other words, they don't appreciate its truly beautiful aspects, from a perspective of critical aesthetic judgment, because 'the beauty of the Qur'an' is a religious commandment that they mechanically apply to every aspect of its text ('linguistic miracle' 'every aya an uncreated exquisite perfection').

    Which is why an apostate like HM is so much better at explaining it.
  • The Wisdom of the Koran
     Reply #25 - April 10, 2015, 04:54 PM

    Yes, also I think the more you study it, the more likely you are to a)see it's actual beauty for yourself and b) realize that it contains false statements.

    Therefore there would be a correlation perhaps between the two independent variables a) and b), based on the dependent variable of having studied it in depth, even though it seems counter-intuitive at first.
  • The Wisdom of the Koran
     Reply #26 - April 10, 2015, 04:58 PM

    The more I have analyzed the Early Meccan surahs, the more I've come to appreciate their sort of elegant piety.  In many ways, the theology and message is exactly what Islam claims to be ... a sort of perfected Christianity, taking out the deficient parts and keeping the best parts.

    Then came the jihad.  Less of a fan of that part.
  • The Wisdom of the Koran
     Reply #27 - April 10, 2015, 05:10 PM

    Can you post an example of what you mean?
  • The Wisdom of the Koran
     Reply #28 - April 10, 2015, 05:15 PM

    I think there is a game - the players need to be skilled actors to do it, where everything a group of people say for a while are direct quotes from films books and plays.

    I am getting the impression of a large group of people who actually have a limited set of cultural responses!

    Let loose the dogs of war! Live long and prosper! One small step. I have a dream.

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • The Wisdom of the Koran
     Reply #29 - April 10, 2015, 05:21 PM

    Imagine no heaven, sitting by the dock of the bay, leaving on a jet plane, flash' you have ...

    Gordon's alive?

    Do I feel lucky?

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
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