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Theme Changer

 Topic: what we really know about early Islamic History ?

 (Read 19584 times)
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  • what we really know about early Islamic History ?
     OP - May 07, 2015, 08:18 AM

    Hi All

    I am just curious what we really know about Islam.
    i try to cite some examples

    Muhammed was a historical figure.
    Medina (yathrib) was a second stage of this early movement.
    more a less the Quran we have now is based on Uthman Codex ?

    is there a consensus on those statements ?
  • what we really know about early Islamic History ?
     Reply #1 - May 07, 2015, 08:46 AM

    Well in the past Western scholarship generally accepted these statements from Muslim sources - but there is a growing scholarship that questions much of this and I am inclined to doubt much of the "traditional" source material we have for each of the above 3 statements.

    Zaotar can give you a better response as he has been looking into this more deeply than I.
  • what we really know about early Islamic History ?
     Reply #2 - May 07, 2015, 09:40 AM

    Mo means praised and the inscription on the Dome of the rock refers to Christ

    It is actually all made in Syria

    It was finalised two hundred years later.

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • what we really know about early Islamic History ?
     Reply #3 - May 07, 2015, 09:52 AM

    And the beer wasn't great in those days.
  • what we really know about early Islamic History ?
     Reply #4 - May 07, 2015, 11:33 AM

    I am just curious what we really know about Islam.
    i try to cite some examples

    Muhammed was a historical figure.
    Medina (yathrib) was a second stage of this early movement.
    more a less the Quran we have now is based on Uthman Codex ?

    is there a consensus on those statements ?

    There's a consensus that there really was a historical Muhammad as he gets a passing mention in early non-muslim sources. Quite what relation he had with the Qur'an and the accounts in the later Arab traditions is another question. Most writers seem to accept the historical reality of Medina as a base for the early movement but I'm not sure this amounts to certainty or a consensus. The year 622 was used as the basis for dating from early on, so it must have been important, but we don't know for sure what it signified for the early muslims, and I'm not sure there's even agreement they should be called muslims at that point.
  • what we really know about early Islamic History ?
     Reply #5 - May 07, 2015, 11:57 AM

    There's a consensus that there really was a historical Muhammad as he gets a passing mention in early non-muslim sources.............

     What non-Muslim sources are we talking zeca?  who and when and where they wrote??  and do you trust them??

    For e.g,  there are lots of historical figures who are older and much less popular than this  " Muhammad"  from say 400-BC to  600-AD.. compare what we know about them vs what we know about Muhammad.  What all we get on   this historical Muhammad from non-Muslim source is JUST A NAME .." Mahamet" and one line on that character...

    Muhammad "Prophet f Islam" being such a famous figure and there were Roman/Greek writers  with in travelling distance of Arabia .. we should have had books from non-Muslims sources on such Character ..    but..but what we have and what we know is nothing.. Next to nothing..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • what we really know about early Islamic History ?
     Reply #6 - May 07, 2015, 01:46 PM

    There's a consensus that there really was a historical Muhammad as he gets a passing mention in early non-muslim sources. Quite what relation he had with the Qur'an and the accounts in the later Arab traditions is another question. Most writers seem to accept the historical reality of Medina as a base for the early movement but I'm not sure this amounts to certainty or a consensus. The year 622 was used as the basis for dating from early on, so it must have been important, but we don't know for sure what it signified for the early muslims, and I'm not sure there's even agreement they should be called muslims at that point.


    I would agree with all of this, with the only exception being your last point, where I think there is probably consensus ... I doubt many scholars nowadays think the early believers called themselves, or were referred to by others, as muslims.  Instead they were called either mu'minun or muhajirun.  It isn't until 691 when there is the first record of anybody calling themself 'muslim' or referring to 'muslims'; that seems to have one of the latest components of Islamic identity to fossilize.

    Looking for consensus is difficult though, because if there's one thing you'd say about early Islamic studies right now, it's the remarkable lack of consensus from scholars.  I could say there is a sort of 'middle road' emerging consensus loosely organized around Reynolds and his colleagues, but it would be misleading to describe it as any sort of true consensus.
  • what we really know about early Islamic History ?
     Reply #7 - May 07, 2015, 04:35 PM

    What non-Muslim sources are we talking zeca?  who and when and where they wrote??  and do you trust them??

    See for example this quote from Thomas the Presbyter cited by Robert Hoyland and referring to a "battle between the Romans and the Arabs of Muhammad" in February 634:

    https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=sEbHAgAAQBAJ&pg=PT132&lpg=PT132&dq=on+friday+4+february+at+the+ninth+hour&source=bl&ots=9YispXkT9v&sig=R2vzmNh7hgaadO78SGRDBKypLH4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ppJLVe3eGYbIyAP4uYBI&ved=0CDkQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=on%20friday%204%20february%20at%20the%20ninth%20hour&f=false

    Here's an article by Ian David Morris discussing, amongst other things, the interpretation of this passage:

    http://www.iandavidmorris.com/misspelling-muhammad-why-robert-spencer-is-wrong-about-thomas-presbyter/

    I'm not any kind of expert but I don't see any reason to disagree with the historians on this. I wouldn't read into it any more the sources actually tell us, which isn't very much, and I wouldn't treat it as confirmation of anything beyond the bare minimum of the account in the later Arab traditions.

    I'll defer to Zaotar on the use of the term 'muslim'.

  • what we really know about early Islamic History ?
     Reply #8 - May 07, 2015, 04:50 PM

    See for example this quote from Thomas the Prebyter cited by Robert Hoyland and referring to a "battle between the Romans and the Arabs of Muhammad" in February 634:

    https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=sEbHAgAAQBAJ&pg=PT132&lpg=PT132&dq=on+friday+4+february+at+the+ninth+hour&source=bl&ots=9YispXkT9v&sig=R2vzmNh7hgaadO78SGRDBKypLH4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ppJLVe3eGYbIyAP4uYBI&ved=0CDkQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=on%20friday%204%20february%20at%20the%20ninth%20hour&f=false

    Here's an article by Ian David Morris discussing, amongst other things, the interpretation of this passage:

    http://www.iandavidmorris.com/misspelling-muhammad-why-robert-spencer-is-wrong-about-thomas-presbyter/


    hi, zeca  I think subject of historicity of present "Prophet of Islam"  from Non_Muslim sources needs a detailed discussion with proper references .,  may be you should open folder on that., I am sure here and there this subject is discussed in CEMB..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • what we really know about early Islamic History ?
     Reply #9 - May 07, 2015, 05:02 PM

    Yeez - that would probably be worthwhile if someone wants to do it but I'm not sure I know I know enough about the subject myself. I'm starting to get the feeling that I'm passing myself off as an expert on early Islam when really I'm nothing of the kind.
  • what we really know about early Islamic History ?
     Reply #10 - May 08, 2015, 05:52 AM

    I just finish reading a paper by Donner (Fred Donner: “The Historian, the Believer, and the Quran”), one theory that i think deserve more attention is " the Qur' an contained reworked liturgical materials of a hypothesized Meccan
    or Hijazl Christian community" this theory is proposed by Günter Lüling.

    the reason i like it, as it gave an explanation of the biblical material in Meccan period, and it is not in contradiction with the core traditionalist history.   does it make sense.
  • what we really know about early Islamic History ?
     Reply #11 - May 08, 2015, 07:32 AM

    fuck, I changed my mind after watching this

     Robert Hoyland: “The Earliest Written Evidence of the Arabic Language and Its Importance for the Study of the Quran”

    http://streaming.nd.edu/artsletters/09/spring/quran/hoyland.wmv

    I think the subject of pre Muhammed religions and influences is a fucking mess !!!!!!!!!!!!
  • what we really know about early Islamic History ?
     Reply #12 - May 08, 2015, 10:38 AM

    fuck, I changed my mind after watching this

     Robert Hoyland: “The Earliest Written Evidence of the Arabic Language and Its Importance for the Study of the Quran”

    http://streaming.nd.edu/artsletters/09/spring/quran/hoyland.wmv

    I think the subject of pre Muhammed religions and influences is a fucking mess !!!!!!!!!!!!

    you should never change your mind on watching one video or reading one book on historical religious subject like this one hatoush

    I just finish reading a paper by Donner (Fred Donner: “The Historian, the Believer, and the Quran”), one theory that i think deserve more attention is " the Qur' an contained reworked liturgical materials of a hypothesized Meccan
    or Hijazl Christian community"...................


    How Islam Began - Fred Donner..

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RFK5u5lkhA

    Quote


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • what we really know about early Islamic History ?
     Reply #13 - May 08, 2015, 11:46 AM

    thank yeez

    i meant this subject is really messy, it seems we don't even have a basic model, on how this thing emerge !!!
  • what we really know about early Islamic History ?
     Reply #14 - May 08, 2015, 12:05 PM

    To muddy the waters even further you might want to look at this dissertation by the Syriacist Jack Tannous. It looks at the early Islamic period from the point of view of Syriac Christianity, which after all remained the religion of the vast majority of the population. Although it's all interesting it's a long read and you may want to jump to the section that discusses the relationship between Syriac Christianity and early Islam (starting at page 379). The quotes below are from the introduction.

    http://users.clas.ufl.edu/sterk/Mission&Conversion/Tannous%20Syria%20between%20Byzantium%20and%20Islam.pdf
    Quote
    This dissertation represents an attempt to bring Syriac perspectives to bear on questions in Byzantine history and Islamic history in the late antique and early medieval Middle East; my aim is to attempt to integrate these three fields of study in addressing two major historical questions relating to the Middle East in this period. Simply put, the two questions relate to the culture of the Middle East that the Arabs found when they conquered the region in the seventh century and the culture of the Middle East which resulted from those conquests.

    In the 630s and 640s, Arab armies swept over what is today Iraq, Syria, Jordan, Israel, Palestine, Lebanon, Egypt, Iran and parts of southern Turkey. By the middle of the eighth century, they had conquered territory stretching from Spain in the West to lands deep in the heart of Central Asia in the East. In the wake of these conquests Arab tribes emigrated from the Arabian Peninsula and settled in the areas their armies had taken. Exact figures are hard to come by, but the number of Muslims who emigrated and settled cannot have been very large. The great Islamicist Claude Cahen estimated that somewhere between 100,000 and 200,000 Muslims settled in the totality of these newly-conquered lands. Patricia Crone, another well-known Islamicist, has suggested that the number of Muslim immigrants and settlers at the very most cannot have been more than 500,000 people. The population of the conquered regions at that time, by contrast, was between 20 and 30 million people. If we focus only on the Middle East and we fast forward to today, we find that the overwhelming majority of the region is now Muslim; most of its population would self-identify as Arab and many of those who would not call themselves Arabs speak Arabic, if not as a native language, then definitely as a second one. How did this massive transformation happen? Where did all those conquered peoples and their descendants go? What happened to their culture, their language, their beliefs?

    Here, therefore, is the one historical question I am interested in taking up in this dissertation: the issue of the Arabization and the Islamization of what was once a Byzantine Middle East. How did the Middle East turn into an Arabic-speaking Muslim- majority region? How did the Arab Muslim conquerors of the seventh century relate to the cultures and beliefs of the people whom they ruled over? These are questions that have occupied Islamicists.

    My other question is one that has occupied Byzantinists: what was the state of the Byzantine Empire which the Arabs encountered in the seventh century? What of the societies these Muslims conquered and were now coming into contact with?


    Quote
    Earlier, I attempted to suggest that in the period after the conquests, Muslims were a very small minority, a drop in a much bigger sea. Not only were they a small minority, many of these Muslims had converted to Islam in the waves of group conversions that occurred at the end of Muḥammad’s life once he had achieved political hegemony. After Muḥammad’s death, many Muslims apostatized and had to be forced back into the new religion by force, through warfare. What this means for us is that a great number of Muslim settlers in the Middle East probably did not know all that much about Islam. And they were now living among larger communities of people who adhered to highly sophisticated and more ancient systems of belief. Given their demographic status and the fragility of the Islamic identity of many of the conquerors, they faced a real threat of assimilation.

    In this precarious situation, we should not be surprised to find that the religious leaders of the early Muslim community had an anxiety of influence. We can see this reflected in various injunctions attributed to Muḥammad. ‘He who imitates a people is one of them,’ the Prophet is supposed to have said. ‘He who imitates others does not belong to us,’ he is also claimed to have stated. Another report had him ordering Muslims: ‘Do not imitate Jews and Christians.’ Various ḥadīth ordered Muslims to dye their beards differently from those of the People of the book, to wear different clothing, to don different footwear, to wear their facial hair differently. Part of what it meant to be a Muslim was that you were not a Christian or a Jew.

    Despite anxieties of influence and attempts to keep it at bay, however, the Arab conquests would have an enormous effect on the conquerors and their religion. Scholars have pointed to a host of continuities between the Late Antique and early Islamic periods: everything from coins to Arabic grammatical thinking have been held up as examples of the Arab conquerors adapting local practices and traditions for their own purposes. The minarets on mosques are probably an adaptation of Syrian church towers. Muslims shared Christian and Jewish saints and pilgrimage sites, visited and socialized at Christian monasteries, attended Christian church services, sought healing from Christian holy men, believed in the apotropaic power of the Eucharist, had their children baptized by priests, and ingested a large amount of Jewish and Christian Biblical and post-biblical lore into their own literature, which they referred to as Isrā’īlīyāt—literally, ‘Israelite stuff.’ A large number of sayings of Jesus from the New Testament re-appear in Muslim literature, attributed to either Muḥammad or to some other unnamed mystic or wise man; the Lord’s Prayer is even found attributed to Muḥammad. What’s more, scholars have discerned in the biography of Muḥammad a number of incidents clearly modeled on Biblical stories, from the life of Christ and also from the life of David. Early Muslim ascetics were known to associate with Christian monks and the woolen cloak that gave ṣūfīs their name was probably an imitation of the woolen garments worn by Christian ascetics. Studies have been done, mostly in Arabic, which show the great influence that a Syriac linguistic substrate has had on the colloquial Arabic of the different parts of Greater Syria. And so it goes.

    All of these things point to a simple reality: the Arab conquests resulted in a hybrid culture, one in which a number of Late Antique, pre-Islamic elements continued and survived, though not without learning to speak in Arabic and putting on an Islamic name tag. The question of how all these elements ‘entered the bloodstream of Islam,’ to use Patricia Crone’s expression, is an arresting one and raises a question of social history: what were the milieux of contact, where Christians and Muslims rubbed shoulders and where such cultural transfers might have happened? Here is where Syriac can offer us some help.


    Quote
    This dissertation represents an attempt to take very seriously the reality that the early medieval Middle East was a multilingual kaleidoscope of cultures, peoples and religions living side by side and rubbing shoulders. In this region, linguistic boundaries did not necessarily translate into cultural boundaries. For this reason, two of my fundamental contentions are that ‘Byzantine culture’ includes more than just Greek and that Middle Eastern history after the 640s is much more than the history of the elite, (small) Muslim minority who ruled it. Indeed, we cannot make sense of that minority and of Islam unless we understand it as developing and crystallizing in a majority non-Muslim context. Scholars of Byzantium and early Islam who take seriously the existence and activities of the Middle East’s Aramaic-speaking majority in the early medieval period will find new perspectives on the region and culture that the Arabs encountered when they arrived and the hybrid culture that their conquests helped create.

  • what we really know about early Islamic History ?
     Reply #15 - May 08, 2015, 02:34 PM

    Quote
    If we assume that what actually united Christians—lay and clergy, rich and poor, common and elite, rural and urban—in the seventh and eighth centuries was a common adherence to a shared set of symbols and rituals and not necessarily a shared set of doctrinal propositions about the precise theological plumbing related to those symbols and rituals, several interesting implications result. The first relates to the Qur’ān itself. Scholars have scoured heresiological treatises, apocryphal Gospels, and all manner of patristic writings looking for some group or text which corresponds to this or that strange-looking Christian doctrine mentioned in the Qur’ān. Exotic heretical groups like the Elkasites and the Collyridians, whose only actual existence qua community may or may not have been solely in the head of a figure like Epiphanios, are roused from their sleepy, musty existence on a brittle, yellowed page in a volume of Migne and pushed blinking out into the sunlight to sit next to Qur’ānic quotations in books on the origins of Islam or the sources of the Qur’ān and made to endure the scholarly ‘might haves,’ ‘could haves,’ ‘possibly’s’ and ‘perhaps’s’ which are the thing of paternity tests when there is no possibility of using DNA. Rather than looking for fourth- or fifth- century groups which held low Christologies or exalted views of Mary—groups which may or may not have actually existed as actual, distinct communities of Christians—or seeking to find individual passages in Syriac texts written by theological elites in Northern Mesopotamia or Greek writers somewhere in the Mediterranean world which seem to bear resemblance to this or that idea put forth in the Qur’ān, a more fruitful way of understanding the image of Christianity presented therein is to see it as a reflection and reaction to Christianity as it existed on the ground in the seventh- century Ḥijāz. Such a Christianity need not have descended directly from past and perhaps fanciful heretical groups originating centuries before and hundreds of miles away, but instead was perhaps not all that dissimilar from the heretical Christianity which was ubiquitous all throughout the rest of the Middle East, differing from it only perhaps in degree as a result of its distance from theological elites like Jacob who were constantly engaged in boundary maintenance and orthodox theological instruction. So, for example, when the Qur’ān seems to suggest that Christians understood Mary to be part of the Trinity (5:116), it may be the case that it simply has misunderstood Christianity, or that it is channeling some sort of Nestorian intra-Christian polemic and making it its own. Alternatively, it may just be the case that the Qur’ān is reflecting an understanding of the Trinity among at least some Christian groups in western Arabia whose distance from important centers of theological activity and instruction had created an environment where such a non-standard view might take root and grow. Claude Gilliot has shown that all of the Christian and Jewish ‘informants’ of Muḥammad which the Muslim tradition itself identifies were foreigners from humble backgrounds—slaves or freed slaves—who knew how to read, and sometimes were even said to be reading either the Torah or the Gospel or both. If any of these informants actually existed and were not invented for the purpose of exegeting the Qur’ān, we should not be surprised if, so far as the Christians among them were concerned, their Christianity was more similar to that of the people Jacob of Edessa criticized than it was to that of Jacob himself.

    The situation in western Arabia was no doubt not dissimilar to that further north: widespread and rampant ‘heresy’ among most people when it came to the great Trinitarian and Christological doctrines as well as understandings of things like the Eucharist. As I have suggested, this was perhaps even the case among parts of the clergy and church elite, such as they were in the Ḥijāz. George of the Arabs had explained Aphrahat’s erroneous views on the soul in part by stating that he had nobody in his region to correct his reading of the Scripture; there do not seem to have been any Christian theological enforcers operating in the sixth and seventh-century Ḥijāz who could have performed the same function for Christians there at that time.

    The second implication of assuming that heresy rather than orthodoxy was the natural and majority doctrinal position of most Christians in the seventh and eighth centuries brings us at last back to the question of the earliest encounters between Christians and Muslims in the seventh and eighth centuries. The Christians that Arab conquerors encountered in this period included highly-trained, theologically- sophisticated and erudite figures like the denizens of Qenneshre. But such figures were a very, very small minority.

    The overwhelming majority of the Christians whom the Arab conquerors came into contact with were likely more similar to the people condemned in Jacob’s canons for their ‘pagan’ practices and abuses of the Eucharist than they were to someone like Jacob of Edessa. ‘Indeed, there was no distinction,’ the East Syrian John of Phenek would lament in perhaps the late 680s, ‘between pagan and Christian; Believer was not distinct from Jew and truth was not distinguished from that which leads astray.’ The shepherds and goat herders whom Simeon the Mountaineer had encountered and who had been too busy with their work to be able to receive proper Christian instruction were surely not the only Christians whose work, geographic location, and level of education left them with understandings of normative Christianity which were much less than those of the clever and dialectically slippery Christian interlocutors who star in Christian-Muslim dialogue and dispute texts and whose subtle ability to thrust and parry with a Muslim of similar education and sophistication is taken to be representative of what Islam meeting Christianity looked like in the first several centuries of Arab rule—yet such ‘simple Christians,’ to use Jacob’s phrase, formed the overwhelming majority of the Christian population. Formal, high-powered theological clashes between Muslims and Christians must have relatively rare when compared to a host of more simple encounters between ordinary adherents which took place daily.

    One of the keys to understanding the process of Islamization and to answering the question, ‘What difference did Islam make?’, is to focus on this non-elite level of exchange. Numerically, the number of non-elite contacts between ordinary Christians and ordinary Muslims dwarfed the dealings between theological elites of both faiths. Moreover, it was the slow conversion of Christian farmers, blacksmiths, carpenters, craftsmen, etc., person by person, family by family, over the course of decades and centuries that gradually turned Syria and the Middle East into a majority-Muslim society. The dramatic nature of this cumulative shift should not be underestimated, either: ‘Most of the descendents,’ Richard Bulliet has pointed out, ‘of most of the men and women who, in the year 600 believed that Jesus of Nazareth was the son of God now profess a belief in Allah and in Muḥammad as his messenger.’

    The Christianity these people converted away from was not, I have attempted to suggest, the sort of theologically and doctrinally sophisticated faith that we encounter in texts written by theological elites. By the same token, the Islam they converted to was not the sophisticated Islam of ninth-century Baghdad. If Christian orthodoxy in the seventh century can be compared to a perfectly executed performance of a piece by Chopin (or Beethoven or Mozart, depending on the Christian group), then we can hardly say that Islamic orthodoxy even had a score in the seventh century. Indeed, it was in the seventh and eighth centuries that the score that was to become orthodoxy in Islam—both Sunnī and Shī‘ī—was beginning to be written.

  • what we really know about early Islamic History ?
     Reply #16 - May 08, 2015, 02:55 PM

    Quote
    One of my contentions in the past two chapters has been that the change in conversion between Christianity and Islam for the Christian carpenter or farmer or butcher was perhaps not that radical at all, especially if we keep in mind that in its earliest period, Islam, at least among the large mass of its adherents, may have been ideologically rather thin, particularly when compared to its later forms. Indeed, assuming widespread lack of knowledge of Islam among Arab conquerors may help explain why, for example, Syriac writers tend not to invoke Islam in describing the Arab conquests: ‘it would be generally true,’ Brock observed, ‘to say that the Syriac sources of this period see the conquests primarily as Arab, and not Muslim.’

    It was precisely because such a religious change was not so radical that it was easy and that conversion became increasingly common. Viewed from a (later) doctrinal perspective, a conversion to Islam may have represented quite a drastic step. One denied such central Christian beliefs as the Trinity and the divinity of Christ and one embraced a new prophet and a new scripture. If, however, we accept a model where being Muslim did not necessarily entail a large number of strong theological commitments and at the same time we jettison a view of what it meant to be a Christian in this period which privileges doctrinal propositions and instead see Christianity as a commitment to certain shared symbols and rituals, the broad chasm people were crossing in their journey from Islam to Christianity begins to seem more like a slender crack in the earth.


    Quote
    And it is now we can begin to see some of the payoff for jettisoning a model of early Christian-Muslim interaction which focuses on the differences in doctrines between the two religions and which pays an inordinate amount of attention to Christian-Muslim dispute texts. Such a focus is fundamentally misleading because it is first and foremost elitist. As I have attempted to point out, focusing on points of theological difference between Christians and Muslims takes as representative of Christian and Muslim viewpoints and theology the people whose views were probably the least representative of what the overwhelming majority of Christians and Muslims actually believed—intellectual and theological elites, persons who were often sectarian and spiritual entrepreneurs engaged in attempts at community formation, boundary maintenance and ‘sheep stealing’ from other confessions. In contrast to this, however, in previous chapters, I sought to show that the focus of most ordinary believers was on things like health, safety and sheer survival and suggested that a more fruitful and productive way of thinking about Christianity in the seventh and eighth centuries was as a commitment to and belief in the power of certain symbols and rituals to help cope with the immediate and pressing struggles of everyday life.

    If to be a Christian in this period meant to have a commitment to and belief in the power of certain things such as the Cross, the Eucharist, Baptism, the figure of Jesus—without necessarily being able to articulate the precise theological plumbing associated with each of them—then in certain respects an Islam that was itself doctrinally lite, as I have attempted to suggest, among the mass of its early adherents and still very much in the process of development, dispute and debate among the much smaller number of its own theological and spiritual entrepreneurs, was poised in a very advantageous position ideologically to win over large numbers of Christians to its new faith. If, for a Christian, becoming a Muslim meant only abjuration of certain rarefied doctrines which were only partially understood, or not understood at all and therefore incompletely believed (if at all) and playing no part in one’s life, and at the same time conversion held out the possibility of maintaining an adherence to many familiar and cherished Christian symbols and rituals while escaping certain economic burdens, then the change that becoming a Muslim represented was as potentially attractive as it was small—which is to say, very.


    Quote
    We have no reason to believe that in the earliest centuries of Islamic history, when the script of Islamic orthodoxy was still being hammered out the situation would have been any less hybrid and mixed-up than it was in the later periods which scholars like Hasluck, Peponakis, and Vyronis studied; in fact, because what would become the central institutions, rites, texts and habits of later Islamic orthodoxies either did not yet exist or were in their very earliest stages of development, we should assume that the level of hybridity in this early period was even greater, especially if the large majority of Muslims had become Muslim through group conversion and possessed little profound acquaintance with the content, such as it was, of their new religion. For all our labels—Miaphyiste, Chalcedonian, Nestorian, Muslim, pagan, etc.—all the people we are dealing with in the seventh century shared one fundamental and inescapable fact in common: they were human beings and as such, had similar worries and anxieties about health, safety, their families, death and the afterlife as others did. Such concerns were ecumenical and interfaith in the broadest sense and many showed pronounced willingness to be equally interfaith and ecumenical when it came to dealing with these anxieties. Part of the growth and development of Christianity entailed a working out of a repertoire of tools for addressing and dealing with such issues of pressing concern and many Muslims seemed to have no great qualms in availing themselves of such resources and Christian converts to Islam seemed to see no great contradiction or tension in continuing to draw upon them once they had crossed over into a different religion; this is the dynamic underlying the sorts of hybridity of religious practice that we see in the Ottoman period. We have no reason to believe that it was a phenomenon which began only at that relatively late date, either.

    Indeed, if we go over our sources from the seventh and eighth centuries we will find traces and hints of precisely the same sort of Muslim continuation of and veneration for Christian symbols and rituals going on which is so abundantly documented for later periods. The Arabs, Isho‘yahb III would write in the middle of the seventh century, ‘are not only not opposed to Christianity, they also sing the praises of our Faith and honor priests and the saints of Our Lord and aid churches and monasteries.’ At the end of the same century, John of Phenek would attribute the coming of Arab rule to God’s care for Christians. ‘We should not think of the advent (of the children of Hagar) as something ordinary,’ he wrote, 'but as due to divine working. Before calling them (God) had prepared them beforehand to hold Christians in honour; thus they also had a special commandment from God concerning our monastic station, that they should hold it in honour.'


    Quote
    To take stock for a moment, we have seen that Muslims showed a reverence for Christian holy men and sought them out for blessings, conversation, meal- companionship and healings. Moreover, they tried to obtain the blessings of Christian saints and the ḥanānā from these holy men. Muslims were interested in Christian churches, prayed there, attended Christian services there and turned some of them into mosques. Muslims—quite possibly former Christian converts—still seemed to regard Christian leaders as authority figures and would obey their orders and even apparently attend church. Such was the relationship of Muslim rulers to churches that some Christians even initially thought that the ‘Abd al-Malik was building the Dome of the Rock as a Christian structure. Muslims showed a belief in the power of the Eucharist, going so far as to steal consecrated hosts from the Byzantine Empire and transport them back into Arab-controlled territory. Muslim men wanted their wives to be able to take communion, even to the point of using threats of force to make sure they were permitted. Muslims were also having their children educated by Christian priests.


    Quote
    Unfortunately, we will never have the sort of rich documentation about religious life and attitudes in the early medieval period that scholars of the Ottoman era or even high Middle Ages possess. Nevertheless, we do have hints and clues that many of the same phenomena of religious hybridity that we have abundant documentation for in those later periods were also occurring in the earliest ‘Islamic’ period as well. If, rather than thinking of Christianity in heavily doctrinal terms, we think of it in terms of an adherence to particular symbols and rituals and belief in the power of certain individuals, it becomes quickly clear that attitudes, at least among some parts of the Muslim population, towards Christian holy men, churches, the Eucharist, Baptism, Jesus and perhaps even the cross, in the early centuries of Islam were such that one could join the new Islamic religious community and yet give up little of what one had previously been committed to on a religious level. This is especially true since, as I have tried to suggest, the level of religious knowledge among the mass of Muslims, most of whom became Muslim through group conversions, was not very high, nor had the institutions and texts which eventually became sources of normativity in Islam crystallized, or in some cases, even been born.

  • what we really know about early Islamic History ?
     Reply #17 - May 08, 2015, 03:30 PM

    Quote
    Our narrative sources, late and tendentious as they are, will mislead us if we look to them uncritically and hope to find straightforward answers to the question of how all these various pre-Islamic phenomena could have ended up wearing an Islamic name-tag and speaking Arabic. Smoking guns are hard to come by. Just as physicists have sought to devise sundry strategies for detecting Dark Matter, the challenge the historian faces is to read the Arabic texts that we possess with an eye towards seeing the presence of the silent majority surrounding the Muslim minority in the Middle East which dominates our historical stage after the seventh century. Is there a way to integrate the image of the Middle East we get from Muslim Arabic texts with that we encounter in Syriac, Greek and Arabic texts written by Christians? Can we make incommensurables speak to one another?

    The first step in reading these Islamic texts with a view towards discovering the silent majority and its role in the development of ‘Islamic’ society is to constantly keep in mind two points, one demographic, one religious, which I have returned to again and again in this chapter and the previous one: Muslims were a small minority and most of the earliest Muslims had come to Islam through mass conversion, not through intensely personal and highly-interiorized religious experiences. If we keep at the forefront of our historical imagination an image of early ‘Islamic’ society where Muslims were a small drop in a massive non-Muslim sea, where the bulk of Muslims were ones who had converted in groups and who did not have a strong sense of what ‘Islam’ required and entailed, where, after the conquests, conversion was often undertaken for reasons of expediency and under economic duress, and where it was possible to become a Muslim yet hold on to many Christian (or other pre-Islamic) symbols and rituals—in short, the sort of society I attempted to make an argument for in my previous chapter—we will have precisely the sort of social context which might explain the large number of continuities which we find between the pre-Islamic and ‘Islamic’ periods. ‘Islam’ was a placeholder which eventually came to have a set value (or a number of competing, but relatively well-articulated set values), but the process by which Islam came to define itself and crystallize was nowhere near complete by the time of Muḥammad’s death.


    Quote
    In this chapter, I have focused primarily on the relationship between the Christian communities of the Middle East and the Arab conquerors who arrived in the middle of the seventh century. What is more, in my attempts at discussing milieux of contact between Christians and Muslims, I have only been able to scratch the surface of the host of ways in which Christian and Muslim lives must have intersected on a constant basis and have only touched briefly upon contacts between Christian ascetics and Muslim ascetics.

    Sherlock Holmes would no doubt note that there have been many dogs, so to speak, which have not barked here—Jews and Persians being perhaps the two most prominent. This omission is the result of my own limitations—in time, space and expertise. At the same time, however, there has been not a small amount of work on Jewish connections and ‘influences’ on Muḥammad and the Qur’ān, and a standard trope in Islamic history emphasizes its Persianization after the ‘Abbasid revolution. Is there room in between the life of the Prophet and the ‘Abbasid da‘wa for Muslims and for Islam to have undergone a Syrianization?

    My efforts, such as they have been, have had a rather simple goal: to expand our understanding and conceptualization of what the Middle East looked like in the centuries after the Islamic conquest and to challenge the unspoken assumption that the history of the region is the history of the minority that ruled over it. Trying to understand that politically dominant minority apart from its existence in the context of its relationship to a non-Muslim majority, adhering to highly sophisticated and more ancient faiths is, in fact, a fundamentally misguided and misleading effort. It moreover represents a teleological and sectarian vision of the region and an understanding of its past which is both elitist and exclusionary.

  • what we really know about early Islamic History ?
     Reply #18 - May 08, 2015, 04:11 PM

    The law on not imitating nonbelievers seems to be an imitation itself of an older legal tradition.Guess which one?
  • what we really know about early Islamic History ?
     Reply #19 - May 08, 2015, 04:13 PM

    That dissertation is a great find Zeca ... this is a subject that I am very interested in right now, and there is depressingly little material that addresses it.  I am finding my lack of knowledge regarding Syriac Christianity to be a real hindrance, and one which is hard to overcome because of the lack of good resources for non-Syriacists.  Many thanks for the reference!
  • what we really know about early Islamic History ?
     Reply #20 - May 08, 2015, 04:22 PM

    ^Just to put a face to the name, here's a short clip of Jack Tannous talking about Syriac manuscripts.
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5iQH77v6WKk
    Peter Brown was the adviser on the dissertation and seems to have had some input into the ideas - which is a good sign.
  • what we really know about early Islamic History ?
     Reply #21 - May 08, 2015, 04:53 PM

    Thanks for the link Zeca.
  • what we really know about early Islamic History ?
     Reply #22 - May 08, 2015, 07:20 PM

    Hi All

    I am just curious what we really know about Islam.
    i try to cite some examples

    Muhammed was a historical figure.
    Medina (yathrib) was a second stage of this early movement.
    more a less the Quran we have now is based on Uthman Codex ?

    is there a consensus on those statements ?



    1. Yes, totally.
    2. Not at all. The historical consesus is that Medina was the FIRST stage of the Muhammad-believers' movement, Mecca, was shoe-horned into the tradition after the failed fitna of ibn Al-Zubayr
    3. The Quran took shape slowly over the 7th century and was only crystallized totally in the 8th, surat Al-Baqarah seems to have been a seperate book from the Quran and the earliest Qurans leave some surahs out.

    To summarize my understanding of well-agree to critical contestations of the modern Islamic narrative:

    1. Muhammad came from Yathrib and had nothing to do with Mecca. Mecca was not at all a notable location for anyone in his lifetime or for about 50 years thereafter, in fact it does not appear in the historical record until the fitna of ibn al-Zubayr, but for a very contested reference from the historian Herodotus as "Mecorabia" in the 5th century BC
    2. Muhammad was an apocalyptic prophet and led some type of a religious community based on the idea of jihad against sinners/unbelievers/hypocrites. They expected the imminent end of the world and in this beleif were highly influence by the apocalyptic proto-Crusade being waged by the Byzantine Emperor Heraclius against the Sassanid Empire.
    3. Muhammad's religious movement was remarkably ecumenical and included amongst others different types of Christians as well as Jews. Jews seem to have had a prominent part to play in the movement and its apocalyptic expectations for the capture of Jerusalem from the Romans, and it seems possible that Muhammad was himself married to a Jew and was the focus of Jewish apocalyptic expectations.
    4. Muhammad's military campaign was focused, as was his movement, on Palestine and Jerusalem, and he died after having taken it by force of arms. There seems to have been a belief that he would rise from the dead/that the world would end before or at his death.
    5. Many of the Arab conquests had nothing to do with Muhammad, but were only later incorporated into an Arab empire claiming him as its religious founder.
    6. For about 50 years after Muhammad's death his importance declined rapidly. The religious authority of the empire was invested in the Caliphs themselves, not in scribes who interpreted the life of Muhammad. Muhammad only comes back into the limelight as the focus of the Arabs' religion after the failed fitna of ibn Al-Zubayr. Only towards the middle of the 7th century do the 'ulemaa' start to emerge as the final arbiters of Islamic law in the empire.
    7. The religious movement associated with Muhammad were originally called mu'minun, believers, and muhaajiruun, immigrants. It is not at all clear that they considered themselves to be a separate confessional identity in the same way modern Muslims do. Before the last decades of the 7th century.
    8. Textual analysis of the Quran as well as outside attestation reveals (1) a text deeply influenced on the theological, linguistic, and narrative levels by Syrician Christianity in the 600's (2) The influence of texts that predate Muhammad (3) several layers of composition, with at the very least a Christian homiletic, half-way Muslim, and fully Islamicizing layers and (4) later redaction of existing surahs to make the more "Islamic."

    Please feel free to correct me anyone Smiley

    إطلب العلم ولو في الصين

    Es sitzt keine Krone so fest und so hoch,
    Der mutige Springer erreicht sie doch.

    I don't give a fuck about your war, or your President.
  • what we really know about early Islamic History ?
     Reply #23 - May 08, 2015, 08:06 PM

    countjulian
    What about the name Muhammad, is it a title?Did Muhammads followers call him Muhammad or something else?
  • what we really know about early Islamic History ?
     Reply #24 - May 08, 2015, 08:12 PM

    It seems to have been a title, albeit an early one, since we have a very early Syriac chronicler calling him "MaHmaT." It seems to have been somewhat Christological, though the best we get from the sources is that Mo thought of himself as perhaps a precursor to the Messiah, not the big M himself. Our very own Zimriel has written that his real name was Qutham, but I have not read (or had the time to read) his arguments as to why this likely is. I would welcome his input on this subject, as from what I can tell it's a topic of some interest to him.

    إطلب العلم ولو في الصين

    Es sitzt keine Krone so fest und so hoch,
    Der mutige Springer erreicht sie doch.

    I don't give a fuck about your war, or your President.
  • what we really know about early Islamic History ?
     Reply #25 - May 08, 2015, 09:01 PM

    Qutham is mentioned in Hichem Djait's Tarikhiyat al-Da'wa, and also Henri Lammens, "Qoran et Tradition" in Recherches de Science Religieuse (1910), 1.25-51. Lammens is translated in Ibn Warraq, Quest for the Historical Muhammad which is where I first found it.
  • what we really know about early Islamic History ?
     Reply #26 - May 08, 2015, 09:09 PM

    What is the primary source evidence for it though?

    إطلب العلم ولو في الصين

    Es sitzt keine Krone so fest und so hoch,
    Der mutige Springer erreicht sie doch.

    I don't give a fuck about your war, or your President.
  • what we really know about early Islamic History ?
     Reply #27 - May 08, 2015, 09:25 PM

    I know it was mentioned at a comparatively early date by Islamic tradition, but I'm unsure why it would be taken as reliable evidence going back to the day, and am interested in Zim's thoughts about that ... he is very knowledgeable about the tradition, which I tend to consult more to show how it didn't remember or report the issue at hand correctly.  Usually I think the tradition almost never reports authentic historical data going back to Mo himself (though it certainly reports reliable data about traditions circulating *after* Mo's life, or contemporary traditions).

    Actually if Zim ever sees this, I'd be interested in his thoughts on a related subject -- for the 'false prophets' of the Ridda Wars, don't these look awfully like vanquished competing Mohammedan ideologies?  I.e., different articulations of the "Prophet" and what he stood for, some of which content became grafted into what became the orthodox tradition, other parts being excluded as 'false prophets'?  If so, I would think that the 'Qutham' tradition might be a partially assimilated such alternative tradition.  Perhaps even a true one on this point, although I have no idea how one might establish that!  It would suggest a wholesale suppression, IMO, of earlier Muhammadan ideology, by competing factions, which is not at all unlikely.
  • what we really know about early Islamic History ?
     Reply #28 - May 08, 2015, 10:25 PM

    Apologies for the tangent, and I hope this question makes sense, but I'm trying to understand the shia movement in this context? It seems a movement that could only have arisen in the immediate aftermath of Mohammed? Can a retrospective movement, based on false narrative, be as divisive and emotive as the Shia one is?

    Hi
  • what we really know about early Islamic History ?
     Reply #29 - May 08, 2015, 11:42 PM

    You know Musivore, my answer to such 'how could' questions is always the same:  Look outside Islam, and ask the same type of question for other religions.  That usually gives the answer.

    Can the bitter rifts in early Christianity be explained by false narratives?  Actually it's hard to find anything BUT rifts about such false narratives.  Religious history is always primarily Salvation History -- Heilsgeschichte -- and as such it primarily consists of attempts to explain why something that was *not* the case should be *believed* to have been the case.

    I see the Shia problem in reverse:  Why is there so *little* disagreement about it?  That is, it surprises me that Shiites and Sunnis are so close in what they accept regarding core Islamic narratives.  Their primary disagreements are not over core early Islamic history, but rather over legitimacy and religious authority at a relatively late point.  I think of this as a furious contestation over rightful leadership of the emerging new political and religious communities, in which different factions used different strategies to assert their rightful place of eminence.  That is not really much different than what orthodox Islamic history claims, actually.
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