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 Topic: what we really know about early Islamic History ?

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  • what we really know about early Islamic History ?
     Reply #60 - May 10, 2015, 04:47 PM

    But nothing is something to hide. According to the Islamic tradition, Mecca was the Mecca of near east trade (pardon the pun), a huge commercial and religious hub of pagan Arabia. Archaeology would show how false this is, you would barely find anything for the 6th and 7th centuries. I also believe that all of the demolitions of the holy sites of Muhammad and the Su7aaba are in part meant to obfuscate how very late they are.

    إطلب العلم ولو في الصين

    Es sitzt keine Krone so fest und so hoch,
    Der mutige Springer erreicht sie doch.

    I don't give a fuck about your war, or your President.
  • what we really know about early Islamic History ?
     Reply #61 - May 10, 2015, 04:58 PM

    Yes, but I think the absence of evidence would just be taken as confirmation that filling in the blanks is okay.  May as well default to the traditional story.  It will have no more impact than the archaeology bearing on how the conquests actually happened ... You will find a void, and remarkable continuity, not useful concrete details.

    Medina would have a better chance of revealing something interesting, I think.
  • what we really know about early Islamic History ?
     Reply #62 - May 10, 2015, 05:10 PM

    what's happening in Saudi now, it is more of an anti-Shia actions, and wahabism at his best, basically any shrine is to be demolished, as it is considered a form of idolatry.
    yes it is very sad indeed.
  • what we really know about early Islamic History ?
     Reply #63 - May 10, 2015, 05:12 PM

    After everything is demolished, is there a way to recover ancient artifacts?
    Maybe some of them were buried underground?

    If there were mass graves of Mo and companions shouldn't there be bones and stuff?
  • what we really know about early Islamic History ?
     Reply #64 - May 10, 2015, 05:19 PM

    Even if the Islamic story was mostly correct, I would be highly surprised if the actual bones of Mo and the companions were in any of those graves. Martyriological fabrication of relics was an absolute plague in late antiquity, and continued throughout the Middle Ages. The bones would be as likely to be those of an animal as of the Prophet. BUT, IMO, excavations there would have revealed how very late those shrines were built, which IMO would give us a good window into the development of the cult of Muhammad the perfect god-man.

    إطلب العلم ولو في الصين

    Es sitzt keine Krone so fest und so hoch,
    Der mutige Springer erreicht sie doch.

    I don't give a fuck about your war, or your President.
  • what we really know about early Islamic History ?
     Reply #65 - May 10, 2015, 05:19 PM

    Quote
    After everything is demolished, is there a way to recover ancient artifacts?
    Maybe some of them were buried underground?

    If there were mass graves of Mo and companions shouldn't there be bones and stuff?

    Some below ground archaeology may survive but looking at the scale of some of the development in Mecca even this looks doubtful.

    The Wahhabi destruction of history goes back a long way. This blog post gives some context:

    https://ballandalus.wordpress.com/2014/08/05/the-islamic-states-isis-destruction-of-shrines-in-historical-perspective/
  • what we really know about early Islamic History ?
     Reply #66 - May 10, 2015, 05:30 PM

    what's happening in Saudi now, it is more of an anti-Shia actions, and wahabism at his best, basically any shrine is to be demolished, as it is considered a form of idolatry.
    yes it is very sad indeed.


    I agree, but the heads of the political and religious establishment have to be aware of all the critical scholarship that's going on in the West, and archaeology which would undermine the Islamic narrative the way that archaeology has undermined the Jewish narrative in Palestine is not something the Saudis could ever abide by. What I am saying is that they must realize how much damage they are doing to critical explorations of Islam's history.

    إطلب العلم ولو في الصين

    Es sitzt keine Krone so fest und so hoch,
    Der mutige Springer erreicht sie doch.

    I don't give a fuck about your war, or your President.
  • what we really know about early Islamic History ?
     Reply #67 - May 10, 2015, 05:51 PM

    in the link,i posted before, they discovered a church in Jubail, but the official in Saudi did not bother to release the finding, fortunately an oil employer took a picture.
  • what we really know about early Islamic History ?
     Reply #68 - May 10, 2015, 05:56 PM

    So I guess people/archeologists/historians do realize now that they're doing it on purpose, to destroy all kinds of evidence that could expose their cult?

    Is there anything more pathetic than this... I have no words  lipsrsealed
  • what we really know about early Islamic History ?
     Reply #69 - May 10, 2015, 06:03 PM

    Helaine

    just a little background, all religions phenomena are cult by definition, I am just trying to understand how  the Quran emerge, as the scholars did not even agree on the basics. 
  • what we really know about early Islamic History ?
     Reply #70 - May 10, 2015, 06:06 PM

    The State had a lot of influence especially when it's authority is invested in Islam as it's foundation.
  • what we really know about early Islamic History ?
     Reply #71 - May 10, 2015, 06:08 PM

    in the link,i posted before, they discovered a church in Jubail, but the official in Saudi did not bother to release the finding, fortunately an oil employer took a picture.

    Along the same lines: Saudi archaeology - a contradiction in terms?
  • Re: what we really know about early Islamic History ?
     Reply #72 - May 10, 2015, 06:58 PM

    After everything is demolished, is there a way to recover ancient artifacts?
    Maybe some of them were buried underground?

    If there were mass graves of Mo and companions shouldn't there be bones and stuff?

    Muhammads tomb is preserved, according to Islamic tradition, and I dont think its been disputed that it is his tomb within Islam.Thats Islamic tradition ofcourse,not that it is his actual tomb. Its probably older than Bukhari. Other graves such as of the companions can be found in the rest of the middle east.Ali and Husain are supposedly buried in Iraq, others in Syria, which may have been destroyed by IS.Though Im sure many here would say they are old fabrications.
  • what we really know about early Islamic History ?
     Reply #73 - May 10, 2015, 07:07 PM

    This is the tomb of prophet of Islam, according to Islamic tradition

  • what we really know about early Islamic History ?
     Reply #74 - May 10, 2015, 07:13 PM

    Also, thats supposedly where Abu Bakr and Umars graves are.
  • what we really know about early Islamic History ?
     Reply #75 - May 10, 2015, 07:39 PM

    The mosque in which the graves are located in was expanded during al-Walid l, which meant that the mosque came to include the graves.
  • what we really know about early Islamic History ?
     Reply #76 - May 10, 2015, 09:58 PM



    Islamoland

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • what we really know about early Islamic History ?
     Reply #77 - May 11, 2015, 05:25 AM

    Zeca

    Manfred Kropp in this paper

    https://www.academia.edu/2492924/Tripartite_but_anti-Trinitarian_formulas_in_the_Qur%CA%BE%C4%81nic_corpus_possibly_pre-Qur%CA%BE%C4%81nic

    there is a free pdf if you search enough in google, and the author has no problem whatever to speak about pre islamic hajj, he even Quote Muqatil Ibn Sulayman.  I guess Manfred Kropp is from the revisionist camp.

    Zaotar

    correct me if I am wrong, but it seems that your general framework is not that different from Lüling,

    "One third of the Qur’an is comprised of the layer of the original Christian hymns, which were transformed
    in the Qur’an through the superimposition of Islamic interpretations. The other two thirds include the layer of purely Islamic texts that can be traced back to Muhammad and the textual layer reinterpreted by the redactors who, in post-
    Muhammad times, fashioned the final appearance of the present-day Qur’an

    The motives for the successive revisions of the Qur’anic text, from its pre-Islamic origins to its post-Muhammad reinterpretations were, according to Lüling, a mixture of dogmatic, historical and tribal motives"
  • what we really know about early Islamic History ?
     Reply #78 - May 11, 2015, 06:07 PM

     I suppose it's possible that some of it goes back to Mo, but how can we be sure? Most of the suwar are so frustratingly devoid of context.

    إطلب العلم ولو في الصين

    Es sitzt keine Krone so fest und so hoch,
    Der mutige Springer erreicht sie doch.

    I don't give a fuck about your war, or your President.
  • what we really know about early Islamic History ?
     Reply #79 - May 11, 2015, 07:17 PM

    Why?

    Why not start with what we do know was happening in the interface of two major empires, Rome and Persia, with their respective religions and sects - christianities, zoroastrianism, Judaism, Buddhism etc, treat Islamic stuff as propaganda and see what happens?

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • what we really know about early Islamic History ?
     Reply #80 - May 11, 2015, 07:59 PM

    Zeca

    Manfred Kropp in this paper

    https://www.academia.edu/2492924/Tripartite_but_anti-Trinitarian_formulas_in_the_Qur%CA%BE%C4%81nic_corpus_possibly_pre-Qur%CA%BE%C4%81nic

    there is a free pdf if you search enough in google, and the author has no problem whatever to speak about pre islamic hajj, he even Quote Muqatil Ibn Sulayman.  I guess Manfred Kropp is from the revisionist camp.

    Zaotar

    correct me if I am wrong, but it seems that your general framework is not that different from Lüling,

    "One third of the Qur’an is comprised of the layer of the original Christian hymns, which were transformed
    in the Qur’an through the superimposition of Islamic interpretations. The other two thirds include the layer of purely Islamic texts that can be traced back to Muhammad and the textual layer reinterpreted by the redactors who, in post-
    Muhammad times, fashioned the final appearance of the present-day Qur’an

    The motives for the successive revisions of the Qur’anic text, from its pre-Islamic origins to its post-Muhammad reinterpretations were, according to Lüling, a mixture of dogmatic, historical and tribal motives"


    Kropp is an awesome scholar, but he seems to think of Mecca as fully-Christianized, with different factions battling each other.  This is where scholarship has generally gone -- either Mecca is turned almost full-Christian (Sinai is another good example of this, with his argument that Q 97 is a Meccan 'counter-Christmas'), or the Qur'an originated outside of Mecca.

    At that point, the "Meccan" explanation becomes useless, because it is so indeterminate.  Mecca can either be fully Christian or fully pagan; there's nothing you can't find or place there.  It becomes what is called, in the field of phylogeny and taxonomy, a 'wastebasket' taxon -- a grouping that is used just to hold unclassifiable organisms, but which does not explain their evolutionary relationships.  So this is my problem, Mecca either explains nothing (because it is an indeterminate blank slate that can contain anything) or it actively screws up the interpretation (if you try to make it determinate, as in 'people couldn't REALLY be Christians who were praying to Jesus in pre-Islamic Mecca ... because they were pagans, and hated Muhammad's monotheism').

    Kropp's analysis of Q 112 is terrific, but it doesn't hinge upon the Qur'an's early context being Mecca at all.  Actually it doesn't even make much sense in Mecca, because why are people speaking in Aramaic in Mecca, rather than Arabic?  Again, however, it will turn out that this is because Aramaic had fully penetrated Mecca ... well, if Mecca is chock full of Aramaic speaking Christians, which later Muslims somehow didn't manage to remember, at this point what exactly does Mecca explain as a putative background?  It is just a cipher that you can say anything you want about.  Once you throw out genuinely pagan Mecca, then you are left with 'forgotten pre-Islamic Mecca' that was full of Christians.  This is not an explanation.
     
    Luling has the exact same problem.  To justify his Christian interpretations of basal Qur'anic text, he claims Mecca was full of an archaic Christian cult, pre-trinitarian.  There's literally no point, from an explanatory perspective, in trying to claim Mecca was x or y in that kind of ad hoc manner.  It's enough to establish that the Qur'an contains archaic Christian texts (which I agree with him on).  The most likely context for such texts would be in the Nabatean region.  But this geographical context does not need to be established one way or another to interpret the text.  The interpretation just should not be affirmatively rejected as impossible 'because Mecca was x.'  There's no reason to come up with some elaborate explanation for what Christians were doing chanting Christian slogans while making a pre-Islamic pilgrimage to Mecca.  All it does is create confusion and speculation, without actually explaining anything.

    Generally speaking I agree with Luling's view about the layers of the Qur'anic text, and also his position on what the main layers consist of -- a base of archaic Christian texts which were adapted and re-articulated via secondary Islamic text, and then accompanied by layers of truly Islamic (primary) text.  It's his whacky historical claims that I have trouble with.
  • what we really know about early Islamic History ?
     Reply #81 - May 11, 2015, 09:23 PM

    Made in Petra makes a lot of sense!

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • what we really know about early Islamic History ?
     Reply #82 - May 12, 2015, 02:00 AM

    Zaotar


    I get all what you are saying about Mecca, I can easily assume that Muhammed was not from Mecca at all. let's say we don't know anything about pre yathrib period.
    but how to explain the hajj, why we have it in the Quran, was it a later additions ?

    ah ok, I found your paper here Smiley

    https://www.academia.edu/12229548/Christian_Pilgrims_not_Pagan_Caravans_S%C5%ABrat_Quraysh_and_the_Construction_of_Early_Islamic_Identities_Q_106_

    let me see what you are proposing here.
  • what we really know about early Islamic History ?
     Reply #83 - May 12, 2015, 02:11 AM

    Quote
    Quote
    Q: but how to explain the hajj, why we have it in the Quran, was it a later additions ?

    There is a little doubt much of nonsense written in Quran comes from so-called Madinan  period.. So hatoush., apart from these two verses

    [quote] [i]1) And complete the hajj or 'umra in the service of Allah. But if ye are prevented (From completing it), send an offering for sacrifice, such as ye may find, and do not shave your heads until the offering reaches the place of sacrifice. And if any of you is ill, or has an ailment in his scalp, (Necessitating shaving), (He should) in compensation either fast, or feed the poor, or offer sacrifice; and when ye are in peaceful conditions (again), if any one wishes to continue the 'umra on to the hajj, He must make an offering, such as he can afford, but if he cannot afford it, He should fast three days during the hajj and seven days on his return, Making ten days in all. This is for those whose household is not in (the precincts of) the Sacred Mosque. And fear Allah, and know that Allah Is strict in punishment. ...[/i].......( Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #196)

     
    (2) F[i]or hajj are the months well known. If any one undertakes that duty therein, Let there be no obscenity, nor wickedness, nor wrangling in the hajj. And whatever good ye do, (be sure) Allah knoweth it. And take a provision (With you) for the journey, but the best of provisions is right conduct. So fear Me, o ye that are wise. [/i] ( Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #197)[/quote]

    do you know any other verses that talks about that Hajj?


    yeezeve

    what i don't understand, if we consider Muhammed preaching as a monotheist Jewish- christian thing, why he ask believers to perform hadjj, it would have made more sense if it was Jerusalem, not Mecca ?



    well hatoush ., I was asking question to figure out whether you read Quran and do you know any other verses apart from those 2 verses on that  hajj ritual/festival...  So I would consider that you have not read Quran and hadith about Hajj ...  So your next question is

    Question:  "if we consider Muhammad preaching as a monotheist Jewish- christian thing, why he ask believers to perform hajj, it would have made more sense if it was Jerusalem, not Mecca ? "

    One of the biggest assumption in Islam is "that there was one guy called  "Muhammad.", and he recited all that Quran along with 100s books of hadith  nonsense in the last 23 years of his life ., In fact I would say in the last 13 years of his life after the death his first wife Khadija..."

    And that assumption is questionable..  Well if we read hadith on that hajj .. you will find that apparently it was Jerusalem/ iin the direction of Jerusalem that they were bowing to start with ..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • what we really know about early Islamic History ?
     Reply #84 - May 12, 2015, 04:41 AM

    yeezeve

    what i don't understand, if we consider Muhammed preaching as a monotheist Jewish- christian thing, why he ask believers to perform hadjj, it would have made more sense if it was Jerusalem, not Mecca ?
  • what we really know about early Islamic History ?
     Reply #85 - May 12, 2015, 01:38 PM

    That's a great question Hatoush.  I'd have to start out by saying that I'm not aware of any detailed scholarly analysis of how the Hajj may have been adapted, secondarily, from Christian and Jewish precedent.  But it appears to be a very late intrusion into the Qur'an -- almost all mentions of the word hajj, as pilgrimage, are in surat l baqarah.  You can see this, here are all the uses of the triliteral root in the Qur'an:

    http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=Hjj#%282:158:8%29

    It looks very like something that was crammed in at the end of the Qur'an in this single surah, along with the change of qibla away from Jerusalem (which was bitterly resisted according to the same Qur'anic surah).

    My present view is that the earliest Qur'anic texts would have been recited in communities that did in fact make some degree of pilgrimage to Jerusalem.  After all, even if you accept the most traditional Islamic narratives, you have to wonder how Muhammad and his followers could have possibly gone on trading caravans all the way to Syria and Yemen every single year for twelve years before the hijra ... without ever visiting Jerusalem, the exact object of their devoted qibla!

    IMO, just as Abd al Malik created the Dome of the Rock as a conscious competitor to the Jerusalem shrines of Byzantine Christianity, so the hajj was likely created from the same sectarian impulse, a Hijazi Arab competitor to the orthodox Christian institution, part of the contested shift in sacred geography.  But there has not yet been detailed analysis of this subject that I know of, much less any consensus.

  • what we really know about early Islamic History ?
     Reply #86 - May 12, 2015, 01:57 PM

    Quote from: Zaotar
    it appears to be a very late intrusion into the Qur'an -- almost all mentions of the word hajj, as pilgrimage, are in surat l baqarah .... It looks very like something that was crammed in at the end of the Qur'an in this single surah, along with the change of qibla away from Jerusalem (which was bitterly resisted according to the same Qur'anic surah).

    What kind of date would you suggest for this alteration? Has the change of qibla away from Jerusalem been dated?
  • what we really know about early Islamic History ?
     Reply #87 - May 12, 2015, 02:19 PM

    That's a great question Hatoush.  I'd have to start out by saying that I'm not aware of any detailed scholarly analysis of how the Hajj may have been adapted, secondarily, from Christian and Jewish precedent.  But it appears to be a very late intrusion into the Qur'an -- almost all mentions of the word hajj, as pilgrimage, are in surat l baqarah.  You can see this, here are all the uses of the triliteral root in the Qur'an:

    http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=Hjj#%282:158:8%29

    It looks very like something that was crammed in at the end of the Qur'an in this single surah, along with the change of qibla away from Jerusalem (which was bitterly resisted according to the same Qur'anic surah).

    My present view is that the earliest Qur'anic texts would have been recited in communities that did in fact make some degree of pilgrimage to Jerusalem.  After all, even if you accept the most traditional Islamic narratives, you have to wonder how Muhammad and his followers could have possibly gone on trading caravans all the way to Syria and Yemen every single year for twelve years before the hijra ... without ever visiting Jerusalem, the exact object of their devoted qibla!

    IMO, just as Abd al Malik created the Dome of the Rock as a conscious competitor to the Jerusalem shrines of Byzantine Christianity, so the hajj was likely created from the same sectarian impulse, a Hijazi Arab competitor to the orthodox Christian institution, part of the contested shift in sacred geography.  But there has not yet been detailed analysis of this subject that I know of, much less any consensus.




    Well, one of the things I always found interesting about the Qur’anic verses describing the Hajj is their complete lack of detail. They seem to be describing a ritual already in place as opposed to imposing a new one. “Pilgrimage is in well-known months.” “Then, flow forth from where the people flow forth.” Etc.
  • what we really know about early Islamic History ?
     Reply #88 - May 12, 2015, 02:29 PM

    What kind of date would you suggest for this alteration? Has the change of qibla away from Jerusalem been dated?


    The change of qibla seems to have been something that took decades to fully implement across the Islamic world; almost certainly it did not occur at one time by prophetic fiat.  I recall that Zimriel knows a great deal about this.  You can trace the changing qiblas in the earliest mosques, which are very interesting -- the earliest mosque quiblas all point to the Nabatean region and southern Palestine, and then they begin shifting at a certain point to directing their qiblas towards Mecca.  IMO, this is a pretty good way of figuring out when the qibla change was implemented, and how, although we surely have to assume a doctrinal/sectarian change preceded its implementation in mosque architecture.  Personally, I'd suggest that the doctrinal/sectarian change took place by around 650/660 (likely when the main Qur'anic compilation itself was completed IMO), but took quite a few decades to really implement effectively throughout nascent Islam.  It's misleading to think of it as a sudden shift, it was probably more a contested process (which Surat al Baqarah is pretty clear on!  It's quite forthright about how people were calling bullshit on the qibla change.)
  • what we really know about early Islamic History ?
     Reply #89 - May 12, 2015, 03:35 PM

    Just read a comment that the first Shia state was in NW Africa.  Might Islam have originated there?  Are we making geographical assumptions because a core language is Arabic?  Might it have been translated from a non local language via Syriac?

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
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