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Theme Changer

 Topic: Kathismecca Hypothesis

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  • Kathismecca Hypothesis
     OP - May 16, 2015, 10:30 PM

    Weird name, I know.  So I've been thinking about a number of problems in Qur'anic interpretation, both in the context of the articles/arguments I've made and some recent scholarly articles that have come out (particularly Dye's latest).  I have come up with a fascinating new idea, and I'm curious what people think.  Here's the problem first:  Why is the Qur'an so interested in Mary, with her Annunciation, and with the incarnation of Jesus?  Why is the Qur'an so uninterested in the nativity of Jesus, or his baptism?  Why, if I'm right, is Q 97 a retelling of St. Ephraim's Hymn No. 21, except that it strangely privileges the incarnation portion of the hymn (which is what Qadr means, in my view, a name for incarnation), rather than the the physical birth of Jesus in Bethlehem (normal Christmas)?  Who would make such a surah, and why?

    Answer:  These early Qur'anic texts were written by a Christian monk, as Dye contends about Q 19 in his latest article.  But not just any Christian monk.  They were specifically written in the context of the Kathisma and its attached monastery, in the context of the pilgrimage trade.  Southern Palestine had become rich in the sixth century, with an exploding population, based almost entirely on the pilgrimage trade that had exploded following Constantine's conversion and Christianization of Jerusalem.  The Church of the Kathisma, however (built around 450 AD), had a peculiar position in that trade.  It was not part of Jerusalem proper, and it had no direct relation to the life of Jesus (it commemorated the 'seat' where Mary rested on her way to give birth in Bethlehem, halfway between Jerusalem and Bethlehem).  It was an enormous building, same size as the Holy Sepulchre/Dome of the Rock in fact, but its significance is very hard to explain to prospective pilgrims (what did it commemorate?  what is its reason for being?  that Mary rested?  who cares?).  It was stuck sort of in no-man's land, between Jerusalem and Bethlehem.  This lack of reason-for-being became particularly problematic when a huge separate church commemorating Mary's death/assumption/dormition was built up in Gethsemane, to the east of the Temple Mount. 

    So what I theorize is that the monks at the Kathisma were in a position where they had to engage with and support the pilgrimage, and part of what they did was cater aggressively to *Arabophone* pilgrims, who were steadily increasing as the population exploded.  Liturgical compositions would have been made to cater to Arabophone pilgrims, and they would characteristically extol the Kathisma over and above competing churches (those in Jerusalem proper, and the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem).

    This is why the Qur'an is so big on the incarnation and annunciation, relative to other events in the life of Jesus and Mary.  Other local churches didn't have a competitive advantage in those areas.

    Now, if this is right, then the Dome of the Rock represents a 'corrected' version of the Kathisma Arab theology, in which the older Marian-Christianity (which according to Dye's reading of Q 19:1-63* implied that Jesus was divine) was fixed by fervently denying the divinity of Jesus.  The same way that Q 19:33-40 'fixed' the older Q 19:1-63* in Dye's article.  This would be a Hijazi/Muhajirun type ideology that recognized its ties to the Kathisma, but 'fixed' them with correct later theology, now fiercely anti-shirk.  That is why the Dome of the Rock is architecturally a carbon copy of the Kathisma, just this time fixed with correct theology.

    Dye theorizes that Q 19:1-63* was written by a Christian monk who had converted.  Perhaps it is much more interesting than that.  Maybe what we have here is early Qur'anic theology that emerged from the Kathisma's (or at least some monks associated with it) efforts to cater to Arab pilgrimage, in competition with neighboring Christian Palestinian institutions.  If this is the case, then we could think of at least some of the Early Qur'an as arising from *Hagiopolite Christian factions* which were competing for pilgrimage and worshipers.  In essence, the Kathisma faction collaborated with rising Arab power to greatly elevate itself, not as converts, but as .... I'm not even sure what the word would be.  Comrades?  Collaborators in a new religious project?

    If this is right, then Sinai is correct that Q 97 is an 'Arab counter-Christmas' after all.  But not in the context of pagan Mecca.  In the context of the Jerusalem pilgrimage trade!
  • Kathismecca Hypothesis
     Reply #1 - May 16, 2015, 11:24 PM

    Zaotar - a question that comes to mind which maybe isn't directly related to this. Are there any theories out there about why the early believers didn't come up with their own alternative church hierarchy, with their own monks and bishops and so on? The theology may have been different but why ditch the clergy and the structures of the church?
  • Kathismecca Hypothesis
     Reply #2 - May 16, 2015, 11:31 PM

    Quote
    Why is the Qur'an so interested in Mary, with her Annunciation, and with the incarnation of Jesus?  Why is the Qur'an so uninterested in the nativity of Jesus, or his baptism?

    Could you clarify what you mean by "uninterested in the nativity" of Jesus? I read Dye as saying that Q. 19:1-33 is, exactly, a retelling of Luke 1-3's nativity-story alongside apocryphal nativity-stories like the Protevangelion. Unless you consider all of sura 19 as post-Qur'anic; I am open to that, myself, but Dye is arguing for a Q 19:1-63* more aligned with how you see sura 97.

    I see the other Qur'anic interests you note, and the disinterest in baptism, as part of the original Islam's reading of the Near Eastern "sectarian milieu". For the Qur'an, the Word is paramount.

    Sura 3 presents Mary as one of several delivery-systems for the Signs of God (âyât Allâhi). In this sura, Jesus himself is an âyatullâhi ('be! and he was-and-is كُنْ فَيَكُونُ'). Beforehand this was also the case for Adam, this time without a mother. The Word in all other Qur'anic instances delivered as an actual word by way of prophet. The delivery of Jesus stands between those of Adam and of the Prophetic Message.

    Given all that, it is important to sura 3 that Jesus be the new Adam. Sura 3 must then tell the tale of Jesus's creation, and explain it. This will be done such that the Annunciation is like God revealing Himself (or at least His plan) to Moses and Elijah. There were, IIRC, several Christian homilies that noted the same parallels. Luke himself consciously emulated the prayer of Hanna:
    http://campus.udayton.edu/mary/resources/hannah.html

    As for the lack of Jesus's baptism in the Qur'an: the subtext is that Jesus was created, not conceived. So there was a Divine plan behind his whole life, even if he was not himself Divine. The problem the Gospels have trying to explain the baptism (explicitly, "should not Jesus be baptising John?") is still present in Islam. So the Qur'an just didn't bother with it at all.
  • Kathismecca Hypothesis
     Reply #3 - May 17, 2015, 04:29 AM

    Sorry I kinda rushed that post out because I was running off to a baseball game with my kid, and was hoping for feedback ... thanks for the comments.  To clarify, my point was that the Qur'an has four separate Annunciation narratives, plus Q 97 as well, and yet it has exactly one Nativity narrative (Q 19), and that narrative is pure Kathisma-specific, which downplays the physical birth (where did it take place?  Doesn't say.  Who was there?  Doesn't say.  Not important) and massively up-plays the travel and seclusion, water, palms, etc.  Point being that the Qur'an seems remarkably Kathisma-ideology driven, and most of what it relays regarding Jesus is what I consider relatively late anti-shirk polemic and argument (second Adam included, a way of explaining away his divine conception as not meaning he was divine).

    I definitely don't consider Q 19 post-Qur'anic, my point was that maybe we should understand the ur-Qur'anic material as something that grew out of competition between Palestinian churches competing for pilgrimage (including Arabophone pilgrimage), and trying to articulate distinct liturgies and specialties in that regard.  This was before what you might call the Q 19:33-40 attitude Hijazified everything; Dome of the Rock, etc.  So perhaps the earlier sectarian milieu might have arisen as a result of conflict between *Christian* Palestinian factions, one of which capitalized on the growing power and significance of Arabophone constituents, and only slowly and secondarily been overwritten with Hijazi ideology/texts/language/etc.

    So instead of thinking of the author of Q 19 as a convert, maybe he was *aggrandizing* his faction, relative to other Hagiopolite factions and institutions, by expanding the process of catering to Arabophone constituents, as their political and social power grew.  I am not sure what the term for this kind of process would be.

    Zeca, that is an interesting question.  It seems clear to me that there was a sort of decisive break with the ur-Qur'anic milieu, and it became overrun with Hijazi and Marwanid ideology.  I haven't puzzled through exactly how that works yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if that's how we ended up with an aggressive Caliph vs. 'grass roots' scholars dichotomy.
  • Kathismecca Hypothesis
     Reply #4 - May 30, 2015, 05:36 PM

    So I've given this some more thought, and pondered Shoemaker, and my current thinking is that all these pieces come together really nicely as follows.

    Q 97, in my estimation, reflects the early view of Muhammad as messiah, a second incarnation of the Word of God, possessed by the divine spirit, adapted from Christian precedent.  This is quite similar to what Shoemaker argues about the historical Muhammad as eschatological prophet focused on reaching Jerusalem.  It's also exactly what (In my view) the earliest historical record of Muhammad's teaching shows, the Doctrina Jacobi, where Muhammad is depicted as claiming as a warlord who claimed to hold the 'keys to paradise.'  The text of Q 97 is clearly an adaption of Ephraim's Nativity Hymn No. 21, adapted to celebrate the incarnation of God in the new Arabian messiah.  It was certainly written by a Christian monk, familiar with Syriac Christian texts, probably from an Arabophone background, who 'bandwagoned.'  Quite likely, that monk was connected with the Kathisma.

    After Muhammad died, and the apocalypse never came, there was a rupture.   Much like after Jesus's death, he was given a new significance.  It wasn't that he was the incarnated Messiah ... now it was that he had brought a message.  But that was a secondary development, the historical Muhammad had been bringing salvation as the Incarnation not as a teacher, so it had to be ascertained what the message was.  This was sort of cobbled together from fragments of the older 'messianic' texts, along with generalized doctrines about what the message supposedly was.  That process continued for a long time, and paralleled how the Gospels were developed.  Because the message of Muhammad was now the point (it had not been before), the death of Jesus could not be understood as having done anything different than what Muhammad had done; the deaths of Jesus and Muhammad were both unimportant, it is their messages that mattered.

    Q 44:2-6 is an example of trying to recast Q 97 in this later Qur'anic line of thinking, removing the incarnation context.  Q 44:9-16 appears to be an overt reference to disappointed believers describing Muhammad as insane, rather than the incarnated messiah, and turning away after he had died without bringing the apocalypse.  So it is the 'fixed' version.

    So what we have in Q 97 is an early attempt to liken Muhammad to Jesus, attributing incarnation to Muhammad in a way that became theologically unacceptable to later Qur'anic thinking.

    To me, this is the best explanation.  Q 97 would thus be a counter-Christmas indeed, but not in any sense that resembles orthodox Islamic understanding of the historical Muhammad or the origins of the Qur'an.

    What do y'all think?
  • Kathismecca Hypothesis
     Reply #5 - May 30, 2015, 08:26 PM

    But where from the text are you pulling the idea that it refers to Mo and not Jesus? You argued pretty persuasively IMO that it's a reference to the 1st incarnation. Most of the early Quranic "Mekkan" material appears to be more or less Christian anyways, how do we know which suwar came from the believers movement and which were just Arabic Christian material that was packed into the "Qeryaanaa" (lectionary)?

    إطلب العلم ولو في الصين

    Es sitzt keine Krone so fest und so hoch,
    Der mutige Springer erreicht sie doch.

    I don't give a fuck about your war, or your President.
  • Kathismecca Hypothesis
     Reply #6 - May 30, 2015, 09:27 PM

    Well I have been thinking a lot about it.  It clearly means incarnation, and in a non-Islamic sense, in the sense of the infinite coming down and being made finite.  There's no way to rescue the traditional view that this refers to Qur'anic revelation.   It doesn't.  But that does not mean that we must understand it as normal Christmas in Arabic.  There are several things that bother me about taking it to a normal Christmas reference.  First, why the focus on the incarnation, rather than the nativity?  And why would Christmas need explanation anyways?  The Kathismeccan hypothesis does explain those problems.  But why is it phrased in divine speech already, 'we' speech?  That is odd.  It already looks like 'deviant' Christian rephrasing.  You could say that the ur-text was in third person rather than first person, but that seems speculative.

    I think it has to be understood as either (a) innovative Christian liturgy in an Arabophone context; or (b) an adaptation of Christian incarnation texts to describe Muhammad's assumption of messiah status.  Alternatively, (c), which is (a) being applied to articulate (b).  That is, it was born out of Christian liturgical innovation in Arabic, transferred to Muhammad, and then 'Islamicized' to refer to Qur'anic revelation, which is where we get Q 44:2-6.
  • Kathismecca Hypothesis
     Reply #7 - May 30, 2015, 09:51 PM

    Get Shoemaker, Crone et al here! :-)

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Kathismecca Hypothesis
     Reply #8 - May 30, 2015, 10:54 PM

    Well I have been thinking a lot about it.  It clearly means incarnation, and in a non-Islamic sense, in the sense of the infinite coming down and being made finite.  There's no way to rescue the traditional view that this refers to Qur'anic revelation.   It doesn't.  But that does not mean that we must understand it as normal Christmas in Arabic.  There are several things that bother me about taking it to a normal Christmas reference.  First, why the focus on the incarnation, rather than the nativity?  And why would Christmas need explanation anyways?  The Kathismeccan hypothesis does explain those problems.  But why is it phrased in divine speech already, 'we' speech?  That is odd.  It already looks like 'deviant' Christian rephrasing.  You could say that the ur-text was in third person rather than first person, but that seems speculative.

    I think it has to be understood as either (a) innovative Christian liturgy in an Arabophone context; or (b) an adaptation of Christian incarnation texts to describe Muhammad's assumption of messiah status.  Alternatively, (c), which is (a) being applied to articulate (b).  That is, it was born out of Christian liturgical innovation in Arabic, transferred to Muhammad, and then 'Islamicized' to refer to Qur'anic revelation, which is where we get Q 44:2-6.


    But what evidence do we have that anyone ever considered Muhammad as the second coming/(first coming of) the Meshiach? All of the available evidence so far as I am aware points to some Jews seeing Muhammad as a kind of Jewish last emperor, similar to the Mahdi in modern Islamic eschatology, a great holy guy who would pave the way for the coming of the real Messiah. What evidence do we have that Mo was considered for such a lofty title as Meshiach/second coming of Jesus? Doctrina Yacobi nuper Batizati does say that he claimed to have the keys of Paradise, but according to Catholic doctrine these were in Peter's hands, so it was clearly not necessary to be Jesus in order to hold these.

    إطلب العلم ولو في الصين

    Es sitzt keine Krone so fest und so hoch,
    Der mutige Springer erreicht sie doch.

    I don't give a fuck about your war, or your President.
  • Kathismecca Hypothesis
     Reply #9 - June 01, 2015, 10:43 AM

    Zaotar - I haven't read this article through yet, but I wonder if it might be relevant to thinking about the Kathisma church.

    Elizabeth Key Fowden - Sharing Holy Places

    https://muse.jhu.edu/journals/common_knowledge/v008/8.1fowden.html
  • Kathismecca Hypothesis
     Reply #10 - June 01, 2015, 12:56 PM

    The various treaties mentioned in the link.  Are they actually as old as they state, like Damascus 635?  Islam feels too formailised.

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Kathismecca Hypothesis
     Reply #11 - June 01, 2015, 02:45 PM

    ^i don't know but I'd guess they might have been backdated from a later period.

    Quote
    As the ninth-century historian al-Baladhuri recounts in his Futu.hal-buldan, when Islamic conquerors in the 630s accepted the surrender of a city in Palestine and Syria, their conditions were laid out in a treaty tailored to each situation. With regard to religious life, Jews and Christians were allowed to retain their places of worship--the only restriction being that these could not be expanded. In addition, construction of new synagogues or churches was not permitted. In some instances, it was stipulated that given churches were to be taken over for Muslim worship. In no case were churches to be demolished or converted for domestic use. The conditions established in each treaty were considered binding, and churches that remained in Christian hands according to these terms technically could not later be commandeered for Muslim use.

    This does sound like something which would have come much later.

    I wonder if the situation at the Kathisma church might have been similar to the basilica (later mosque) in Damascus.

    Quote
    When Damascus was taken in 635, the church remained by agreement in the Christians' possession. From this early period Muslims too worshipped within the temenos wall, so that Christians and Muslims shared the courtyard. No doubt Muslims visited the shrine of John the Baptist as well. It is up to one's imagination to envision how Muslims might have taken part in the processions and litanies in honor of St. John that would have overflowed into the courtyard. But their place of formal corporate worship was in the open-air mosque set up in the temenos. Some of our sources for this early period of cohabitation relate that Christians and Muslims used separate entrances to the courtyard. 16 For more than seventy years--from 635 to 706--Christians and Muslims worshipped within the same temenos, although the visual balance within the temenos would have been tipped toward the preexisting basilica, renowned for its size and luxurious decoration.

    A shared commitment to the One God was the crucial ingredient that allowed this situation at Damascus to persist for almost three generations, until the political climate demanded that the church give way to a grand central mosque for the capital of the Umayyad caliphate. The situation was no doubt helped by the fact that, in this early period of Islam's appearance in the Christianized East, the actual nature and status of Islam was not at all clear in the eyes of contemporary Christians. 17 Some viewed Islam as just another Christian heresy; others interpreted it as God's punishment for the Christians' quarrelsomeness over christological issues. Within Muslim circles, too, this was a formative period in which the debt to Judaism and Christianity was being weighed against the emerging identity of a separate religious community. As that community gradually accumulated what could be called "Islamic tradition," it began to separate itself from what were seen increasingly as distinct religions. Part of this process was the claiming of the entire holy place in Damascus for Islamic worship alone.

  • Kathismecca Hypothesis
     Reply #12 - June 01, 2015, 03:22 PM

    Another link that may be of interest

    Rina Avner - The Dome of the Rock in the light of the development of concentric martyria in Jerusalem: architecture and architectural iconography

    http://archnet.org/system/publications/contents/9484/original/DTP101967.pdf?1396907242
  • Kathismecca Hypothesis
     Reply #13 - June 01, 2015, 04:30 PM

    But what evidence do we have that anyone ever considered Muhammad as the second coming/(first coming of) the Meshiach? All of the available evidence so far as I am aware points to some Jews seeing Muhammad as a kind of Jewish last emperor, similar to the Mahdi in modern Islamic eschatology, a great holy guy who would pave the way for the coming of the real Messiah. What evidence do we have that Mo was considered for such a lofty title as Meshiach/second coming of Jesus? Doctrina Yacobi nuper Batizati does say that he claimed to have the keys of Paradise, but according to Catholic doctrine these were in Peter's hands, so it was clearly not necessary to be Jesus in order to hold these.


    Hmm, thanks for the interesting comments CJ.  I thought about this a bit further, and looked at Shoemaker's book again.

    Having done that, I think it's important to be flexible on several points here that tend to be assumed.  First, we can't assume that the early Qur'anic surahs actually represented the core Muhammadan movement ... actually I would assume quite the opposite, that they were *marginal* to the movement (whether one considers them Christian or rather an adaptation of Christianity to incorporate Muhammad as prophet).  Second, we can't assume that the 'incarnation' was understood in quite the same way as it is within orthodox Christianity.  If Muhammad was taken to be a sort of paraclete (a divine incarnation equivalent to Jesus), who would be followed by Jesus, then we have to ask how the paraclete's divine proclamations would have been transmitted from God.  And look at the Qur'an, how it tends to present Jesus as a repetition of John --- by extension, the second coming of Jesus could have been understood (in the early Qur'anic texts, not necessarily the movement more broadly).

    So it's possible that what we have is an attempt to describe Muhammad, then, as a sort of paraclete (incarnated Holy Spirit), which is why he had authority to usher in the Kingdom of God by conquering Jerusalem  .... etc.

    The interesting part here is that I think we should be prepared to accept more *theological innovation* in these early Qur'anic surahs than is commonly granted, and also a much greater degree of independence; instead they are interpreted through the lens of orthodox Christianity or orthodox Islam, as if that was an either-or choice.

    Zeca thanks for those links ... they look like they might be helpful, I will read the articles.
  • Kathismecca Hypothesis
     Reply #14 - June 01, 2015, 07:16 PM

    Damnit, Segovia is coming out with a book on this subject, just posted today:

    https://www.academia.edu/4218893/The_Quranic_Noah_and_the_Making_of_the_Islamic_Prophet_A_Study_of_Intertextuality_and_Religious_Identity_Formation_in_Late_Antiquity_2015_Upcoming_Book

    "Still in its infancy because of the overly conservative views and methods assumed by the majority of scholars working in it since the mid-19th century,the field of early Islamic and Quranic studies is one in which the very basic questions must nowadays be addressed with decision. Accordingly, this book tries to resituate the Qur’an at the crossroads of the conversations of old, to which its parabiblical narratives witness, and explores how Muhammad’s image– which was apparently modelled after that of the anonymous prophet repeatedly alluded to in the Qur’an – originally matched that of other prophets and/or charismatic figures distinctive in the late-antique sectarian milieu out of which Islam gradually emerged. Moreover, it contends that the Quranic Noah narratives provide a first-hand window into the making of Muhammad as an eschatological prophet and further examines their form, content, purpose, and sources as a means of deciphering the scribal and intertextual nature of the Qur’an as well as the Jewish-Christian background of the messianic controversy that gave birth to the new Arab religion. The previously neglected view that Muhammad was once tentatively thought of as a new Messiah challenges our common understanding of Islam’s origins."

  • Kathismecca Hypothesis
     Reply #15 - June 06, 2015, 06:03 PM

    Here is my massively revised new version of the Q 97 article, incorporating feedback from Dye and about 1/3 longer, lots of (to me) interesting new arguments.  Comments and criticisms would be appreciated, though I know it's loooooong.

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6JTWerOhmPUeEdOOWhQQ3I4aWM/view?usp=sharing

  • Kathismecca Hypothesis
     Reply #16 - June 06, 2015, 07:29 PM

    Another article on the Kathisma by Rina Avner. I don't know if there's anything additional in it of interest.

    https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=DyEOW_R6RhUC&pg=PA9&lpg=PA9&dq=The+Initial+Tradition+of+the+Theotokos+at+the+Kathisma:+Earliest+Celebrations+and+the+Calendar&source=bl&ots=luvTStgxYJ&sig=JRiEU0NqW9SZ9HAMmZT8ecgh2wA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=IUdzVfX0IsG2UZaCgfgO&ved=0CCYQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=The%20Initial%20Tradition%20of%20the%20Theotokos%20at%20the%20Kathisma%3A%20Earliest%20Celebrations%20and%20the%20Calendar&f=true
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