Usama Hasan on Jizya & Dhimma

1« Previous thread | Next thread »
- cosmicdancer
- Pub Regular
- offline
Usama Hasan on Jizya & Dhimma
OP - June 03, 2015, 09:37 AM

Usama Hasan:

"If you believe that jizya and dhimma should be enforced upon people who are not Muslim, please read my latest publication : From Dhimmitude to Democracy. Read, if you wish, about (1) how jizya and dhimma evolved through history until the Ottoman caliph abolished these in 1856, (2) the Medina Charter, for analysis and discussion, (3) why ahl al kitab (People of Scripture) includes all major world religions, since they all have scriptures, (4) fatwas from Ibn Taymiyyah & Wansharisi, featuring Mardin and Galera, (5) Ibn Bayyah on loyalty, citizenship and secularism, plus much more"

http://www.quilliamfoundation.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/publications/free/from-dhimmitude-to-democracy.pdf
- Quod Sum Eris
- King of the
- Pub Regular
- offline
Usama Hasan on Jizya & Dhimma
Reply #1 - June 03, 2015, 09:40 PM

Sadly quilliam doesn't seem to be looked upon favourably by the majority of muslims.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
- Skywalker
- Pub Regular
- offline
Usama Hasan on Jizya & Dhimma
Reply #2 - June 03, 2015, 10:55 PM

Took a glance(too lazy) and found that its seems to be things within the mainstream. It could?ve been written by Muslim Brotherhood types in the West such as Tariq Ramadan.The most clever arguments that I often found that liberal muslims use are often those arguments that already have existed within the mainstream Islam in the West, though not necessarily the dominant view.

Alot the things there might not be controversia. Though as its pointed out by Quod, as its written by Quilliam, muslims generally wont care about it. Moreover the fact that the article uses the word 'Dhimmitude', which is exclusively used by certain types of critics of Islam and more specifically Bat Yeor, Robert Spencer and others wont really give bonus points.
- Skywalker
- Pub Regular
- offline
Usama Hasan on Jizya & Dhimma
Reply #3 - June 03, 2015, 11:23 PM

Btw I do think that Quilliam is having a big impact in an unexpected way in this debate.
- cosmicdancer
- Pub Regular
- offline
Usama Hasan on Jizya & Dhimma
Reply #4 - June 03, 2015, 11:25 PM

Quote from: Skywalker on June 03, 2015, 11:23 PM
Btw I do think that Quilliam is having a big impact in an unexpected way in this debate.

Well at the very least they are opening up the debate and putting ideas out there.
- Skywalker
- Pub Regular
- offline
Usama Hasan on Jizya & Dhimma
Reply #5 - June 03, 2015, 11:36 PM

What do you think is new in this text, Hassan?
- cosmicdancer
- Pub Regular
- offline
Usama Hasan on Jizya & Dhimma
Reply #6 - June 03, 2015, 11:39 PM

Damn you Skywalker - you have now forced me to confess that I haven't read it thoroughly either lol

But I found the mere fact that Usama is trying to deal with this sticky issue in light of Quilliam's stance on supporting secular democracy a good thing.

I will give a better answer once I've read through it thoroughly.
- ibn Bilal
- Global Moderator
- سلاسي هو المسيح
- offline
Usama Hasan on Jizya & Dhimma
Reply #7 - June 04, 2015, 12:51 AM

I'm guilty of commenting without reading as well, but based on that snippet, it appears as though it suffers from the same issue that always plagues Islamic discourse. Because of the belief that the Qur'an is always (or even generally) right, [so many] Muslims can't come out and say, "yeah, that bit was stupid and we're just not doing that anymore." Instead, they have to go out of their way to prove why their own convoluted, fringe interpretation that just about works, if you tilt your head and squint your eyes just right, is really the correct or most appropriate interpretation.
- cosmicdancer
- Pub Regular
- offline
Usama Hasan on Jizya & Dhimma
Reply #8 - June 04, 2015, 05:15 AM

Spot on HM.
- bogart
- Pub Regular
- offline
Usama Hasan on Jizya & Dhimma
Reply #9 - June 04, 2015, 01:03 PM

I looked at the Ottoman reference but found many of these are not really Islamic. I see a real disconnect between these reforms and the term Islamic to the point that Islamic has no relevance. I also see a disconnect between Hanafi history and how Hanafi is presented in the book. On one hand it claims Jizya was abolished yet in the very Edict they cite contains a clause allowing for Jizya. There is sleight of hand when presenting Hanafi especially the omission of apostasy views while claims Hanafi is the basis of reform that rendered apostasy no longer a legal issue.
- cosmicdancer
- Pub Regular
- offline
Usama Hasan on Jizya & Dhimma
Reply #10 - June 04, 2015, 01:12 PM

This is ultimately why I never wanted to play this game of reform from within the traditional boundaries.

Real reform can only come through honesty.

Honesty that the Qur'an is of human authorship - even if that human was inspired in some way.

By accepting this one simple statement we can solve all those theological issues in one clean stroke.
- serpentofeden
- Pub Regular
- offline
Usama Hasan on Jizya & Dhimma
Reply #11 - June 04, 2015, 02:41 PM

What Quillaim says on Islam or Muslims is almost completely unimportant and insignificant as they have no presence within muslim communities with the UK. Quilliam and Maajid are an anathema to over 95% of muslims in the UK.

Maajid Nawaz is never given a platform in any mosques nor would he be allowed to. Usama Hasan only has a platform amongst muslims in places like the Inclusive Mosque which is itself considered a crank movement amongst nearly all UK muslims.
- Skywalker
- Pub Regular
- offline
Usama Hasan on Jizya & Dhimma
Reply #12 - June 04, 2015, 02:56 PM

There are modernist and liberal muslims who are accepted within the muslim community, those guys can make more of an impact.
- hatoush
- Agnostic
- Muslim
- offline
Usama Hasan on Jizya & Dhimma
Reply #13 - June 04, 2015, 04:24 PM

if only we get rid of the hadith, it will be a real progress, i don't know particularly about the uk, but someone like adnan ibrahim is making a difference.
1« Previous thread | Next thread »