Faith in a book you don't understand

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- kulay
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Faith in a book you don't understand
OP - June 18, 2015, 08:22 AM

Until recently, all my friends from India were all from hindu/Christian backgrounds (levels of belief differ) so my apostasy is not that interesting to them.

I have a coworker from kerala who grew up there (attended madrasa etc) and he tries to observe religion as much as possible. He was fascinated by me because it was the first time for him to talk to an Arab from the gulf on a personal level so we had the following conversation:

Him: "so, you are a muslim, right?"
*shrugging shoulders* "meh, half and half, I'm not really religious"
*eyes wide open* "but your mother and father are muslim?! You are an Arab?"
"Oh yeah, parents are quite religious."
"they didn't teach you about Islam and quran?! How come you're like this?! This is very important, you have to take this seriously. You are an Arab so you can understand the quran, you should be more religious than me!" (his tone was more of concern to be honest)
"it's kind of a personal matter." I said hesitantly and tried to change the subject
"I understand it's personal. I'm sorry I'm just really curious how come someone who can understand the quran is like this."
Ok, I can tell you but you have to understand that it's a personal matter and can't tell anyone."
"ofcourse"
"I don't believe."
In complete shock "what? How? Didn't you read the quran?!"
"ofcourse I did, that's why I don't believe."
He was just stupefied at this point, realized why I didn't want to discuss this subject and changed the topic to work related.

I wonder how it feels to worship and believe in a holy book you don't understand. Why does belief supercede understanding? Doesn't it raise flags in their heads that they're believing in something they don't understand?

I'm not accusing here, I truly wonder about such things.

"Ours is the age which is proud of machines that think and suspicious of men who try to."
هذا من فضل جدي
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Reply #1 - June 18, 2015, 10:04 AM
Quote from: kulay on June 18, 2015, 08:22 AM
............. India ......coworker from kerala ..... (attended madrasa etc) and he tries to observe religion as much as possible. He was fascinated by me because it was the first time for him to talk to an Arab from the gulf on a personal level so we had the following conversation:
[quote]Him: "so, you are a muslim, right?"
*shrugging shoulders* "meh, half and half, I'm not really religious"
*eyes wide open* "but your mother and father are muslim?! You are an Arab?"
"Oh yeah, parents are quite religious."
"they didn't teach you about Islam and quran?! How come you're like this?! This is very important, you have to take this seriously. You are an Arab so you can understand the quran, you should be more religious than me!" (his tone was more of concern to be honest)
"it's kind of a personal matter." I said hesitantly and tried to change the subject
"I understand it's personal. I'm sorry I'm just really curious how come someone who can understand the quran is like this."
Ok, I can tell you but you have to understand that it's a personal matter and can't tell anyone."
"ofcourse"
"I don't believe."
In complete shock "what? How? Didn't you read the quran?!"
"ofcourse I did, that's why I don't believe."
He was just stupefied at this point, realized why I didn't want to discuss this subject and changed the topic to work related.[/quote]
I wonder how it feels to worship and believe in a holy book you don't understand. Why does belief supercede understanding? Doesn't it raise flags in their heads that they're believing in something they don't understand?

I'm not accusing here, I truly wonder about such things.
hello kulay .. well there are at least six billions of people like that . he is one among some six billion folks.. not a big deal..

So I was reading a review about this new movie Jurassic world at www.dawn.com. it says, this recent movie is all about a "Indominus" species .. So tell your friend "Indominus" he is a very lucky guy., by chance he was born in Pakistan instead of India, he would have lost his Karela language and would have become some Arabi without knowing anything about Arabic language..

well tell him to read Quran in his language and in English also ask him to join cemb forum..
Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #2 - June 18, 2015, 08:57 PM

There are muslims who can barely speak a word of Arabic who are baffled that Arab christians/jews/etc can read the quran, understand the call to prayer and whatever else and not be muslim. Belief isn't always rational. They know the truth and that's that.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #3 - June 18, 2015, 09:00 PM

Quote from: kulay on June 18, 2015, 08:22 AM
I wonder how it feels to worship and believe in a holy book you don't understand. Why does belief supercede understanding? Doesn't it raise flags in their heads that they're believing in something they don't understand?

I'm not accusing here, I truly wonder about such things.

The first time I asked my dad about why there's any point to praying using words you don't understand he got really defensive here. Very telling.

Ultimately Islam never was a system based on understanding of the individual adherent, but rather on enforcing conformity and obedience.

Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
how fuck works without shit??

Let's Play Chess!

harakaat, friend, RIP
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Reply #4 - June 18, 2015, 09:03 PM

Actually now that I think about it, it's even more stupid if you do know the words. You're repeating the same poems over and over again 5 times a day. Even if it is the greatest book of all time or some shit, it still wouldn't make any sense.

Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
how fuck works without shit??

Let's Play Chess!

harakaat, friend, RIP
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Reply #5 - June 18, 2015, 09:08 PM

Used to be in christianity that the prayers were always in Latin, which hardly anyone understood. I always thought it was odd praying with words you don't understand. I wonder if it has to do with the superiority of Arab culture and the inferiority of your own.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #6 - June 18, 2015, 09:18 PM

The Latin thing was to keep control of the religion, meaning keep control of the people by controlling what they could think. Doesn't really apply to Arabic, at least in Arabic-speaking countries. May apply to some extent in non-Arabic countries.

It is a weird one though. You'd think that people would want to read what their supposedly sacred text actually says before deciding it was sacred.

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Reply #7 - June 18, 2015, 09:34 PM

Quote from: asbie on June 18, 2015, 09:00 PM
The first time I asked my dad about why there's any point to praying using words you don't understand he got really defensive here. Very telling.

"Ultimately Islam never was a system based on understanding of the individual adherent, but rather on enforcing conformity and obedience."

Hmm asbie throws a gold nugget let me catch it..

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #8 - June 18, 2015, 09:39 PM

Quote from: osmanthus on June 18, 2015, 09:18 PM
The Latin thing was to keep control of the religion, meaning keep control of the people by controlling what they could think. Doesn't really apply to Arabic, at least in Arabic-speaking countries. May apply to some extent in non-Arabic countries.

It is a weird one though. You'd think that people would want to read what their supposedly sacred text actually says before deciding it was sacred.

It's not that weird. History is full of this stuff. It makes it easier to subjugate a populace when even what they are forced to keep holy is something foreign to them and beyond their understanding, which I think you might be hinting at.

Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
how fuck works without shit??

Let's Play Chess!

harakaat, friend, RIP
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Reply #9 - June 19, 2015, 02:18 AM

Quote from: kulay on June 18, 2015, 08:22 AM
Until recently, all my friends from India were all from hindu/Christian backgrounds (levels of belief differ) so my apostasy is not that interesting to them.

I have a coworker from kerala who grew up there (attended madrasa etc) and he tries to observe religion as much as possible. He was fascinated by me because it was the first time for him to talk to an Arab from the gulf on a personal level so we had the following conversation:

Him: "so, you are a muslim, right?"
*shrugging shoulders* "meh, half and half, I'm not really religious"
*eyes wide open* "but your mother and father are muslim?! You are an Arab?"
"Oh yeah, parents are quite religious."
"they didn't teach you about Islam and quran?! How come you're like this?! This is very important, you have to take this seriously. You are an Arab so you can understand the quran, you should be more religious than me!" (his tone was more of concern to be honest)
"it's kind of a personal matter." I said hesitantly and tried to change the subject
"I understand it's personal. I'm sorry I'm just really curious how come someone who can understand the quran is like this."
Ok, I can tell you but you have to understand that it's a personal matter and can't tell anyone."
"ofcourse"
"I don't believe."
In complete shock "what? How? Didn't you read the quran?!"
"ofcourse I did, that's why I don't believe."
He was just stupefied at this point, realized why I didn't want to discuss this subject and changed the topic to work related.

I wonder how it feels to worship and believe in a holy book you don't understand. Why does belief supercede understanding? Doesn't it raise flags in their heads that they're believing in something they don't understand?

I'm not accusing here, I truly wonder about such things.

When you realize you did not understand the holy book for years, you feel like someone knocked the wind out of you. You get into denial. You start nit-picking, thinking maybe you misunderstood, you learned Arabic wrong, that the English version you first learned from is the correct version.
There is that cognitive dissonance.
Once you get your facts straightened out and realize you understand the original version and the translation was set up in such a way to be more palatable to you, you get angry.
You stay angry for a while. Maybe a few years.
The reason people believe without understanding is because they were given translations, or their nice grandfather explained it to them. Or because everyone around them believes something, so they do, too. It happens in the US with the Santa Claus myth, among young children. It is truly baffling, this mass delusion. Yet generation after generation perpetuates it.
If Quran was not filtered through nice people, with their good intentions in writing translations or explaining their take on it, no one would follow it, I think.

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Reply #10 - June 19, 2015, 02:43 AM

They probably would.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #11 - June 19, 2015, 01:59 PM

Latin was taught at every university during the Middle Ages in Europe since universities were founded by the Catholic Church as religious schools, Oxford was a religious school for example. Most Grammar schools taught enough Latin, among other languages, so the merchant class could communicate. Latin was to Europe then as English is to the world now, a common language used by people which are not Latins, have it as a national or cultural language for communication. It is easier to learn a common language shared by a large group of nations then to learn each language of all these nations. Grammar schools were not as expensive as universities. A well off craft or trade skills occupation can provide money to send at least one child to Grammar school. Thomas More was a son of a blacksmith, went to Grammar school, had a masters in Latin and become a lawyer. Wosley was a peasant yet gained the highest office outside the monarch anyone could get. Both by different means built themselves up into the noble class which was a negative to the "pure-blood" gentry. In medieval society any family with the common amount of children sent at least one off to join the Church. The education was free thus was an easy way to cut family expenses down while also providing a link with the upper class as a trickle down effect in the form of patronage. It was Greek which was not taught which restricted the masses and the interpretations of scripture.

It is a common misconception that the fall of the Catholic Church during the Reformation, which started the shift from religious to secular institutions and power, improved the life of the masses and their opportunities. It actually had the reverse effect in which commoners were worse off then they had been during the Medieval period. Secular during this time was not about a lack of religion in government but without the middle-man of the Church between the classes. For the commoners the previous system was always between the peasants and the Church. The monarch was always secondary. The Church provided health services, education, charity, emergence aid, etc, never the monarch. During the Reformation various monarchs and members of the nobility gained land which was once part of the Church but never provided the services to the commoners as before. Thus as the Church lost property the masses lost previous services becoming increasingly illiterate, poor, sick, etc. The property itself was desired due to rent, production and taxes not secondary services. So as it changed hands services which were not incoming producing were cut or had a fee attached. Oxford began charging all students rather than non-clergy. The small hamlet churches were closed due to be unprofitable. Land was converted from tenant agriculture to inclosed grazing land and manufactures for wool. The Renaissance and Enlightenment peasant's lot in life was superimposed upon the medieval one as an act of hubris.

The shift for the nobility and monarch was that the Church was no longer the middle-man between them and God. The view at the time was that the Church's purpose was to tend the masses not rule. However to rule one had God's grace thus the upper classes social position was granted by God alone. To challenge the upper class was to challenge the will of and God "himself". Hence the rise of absolute monarchy, divine right of Kings along with the consolidation of power into avenues open only to the nobility and select religious groups per the monarch's will rather than the Church's. Keep in mind the monarch was merely the position which could impose fees on imports, exports, and other trade fees. It rarely taxed the population directly but imposed a tax upon the landowner's which taxed the commoners in order to recover loses. For example if you pay more than 1/12 of your income in taxes you are already paying far more than the average taxes during per-modern periods. Commoners would rebel, revolt and riot over the very idea of 1/12 income tax. It did not provide services to the masses, it charged for services. Tuition was still based on the idea of money lending by the rich not the banking system with loans. The change of landownership did not increase until colonization and expansion due to the concept of "unsettled land" in which claims could be made by anyone to the state. The idea of a true national government in which services such as education, healthcare, etc, did not raise until the breakdown of the colony systems in the Americas in which the State had dominion not the monarchs. In the end it was the nobility which projected the control of the masses at a far greater scale than the Church ever could dream of.

The same shift is happening in Muslim nations as the concept of the State changes from previous systems into something new. Many are poor thus can not afford language studies or the State directly controls the upper education system. There is no real competitive education market emerging providing options for the masses.
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Reply #12 - June 19, 2015, 03:47 PM

Many muslims don't know Islam/Quran that well, they just know its the TRUTH. I was the same.
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Reply #13 - June 19, 2015, 04:32 PM

well Roberto40 says something
Quote from: Roberto40 on June 19, 2015, 03:47 PM
Many muslims don't know Islam/Quran that well, they just ~~know~~ its the TRUTH. I was the same.

let me cut that one word "know" and replace it with something else to make it better..
Quote
Many muslims don't know Islam/Quran that well, they just believe its the TRUTH. I was the same..... ...Roberto40

and that is true not just for Islam & Muslims but to many faiths and their respective faith heads..

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #14 - June 19, 2015, 11:23 PM

Unfortunately, most muslims I know, don't just merely believe their religion to be true, they know with 100% certainity that its true. Which again is whats causing so much problems for muslims, because when faith turns into actual knowledge, people are willing to do anything and everything in the name of their religion.
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Reply #15 - June 20, 2015, 08:12 AM

because simply believing saves time i guess. and it's not just confined to religion too. i'm sure most of the populace never did the math or equations of relativity or the big bang theory to check whether it's correct. or seen and studied fossils/mutation etc to verify that evolution is right. the effort it takes to do all that stuff is a lot, and it's easier to trust in people who you would think know their shit. same with religion. but instead of scientists, they believe in the ulema.

for sure i don't go around studying the research papers of the efficacy of paracetamol when i have a fever. i just pop some and believe that it'll take care of the fever, coz doctors/scientists say so.

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Reply #16 - June 20, 2015, 12:22 PM

Quote from: kephas on June 20, 2015, 08:12 AM
because simply believing saves time i guess. ..................

.... it's easier to trust in people who you would think know their shit. same with religion. but instead of scientists, they believe in the ulema...

for sure i don't go around studying the research papers of the efficacy of paracetamol when i have a fever. i just pop some and believe that it'll take care of the fever, coz doctors/scientists say so.

kephas compares scientists....ulema... their works , work ethics and people who beleive in their work..

dear kephas there is huge difference between two classes of people and their work you are comparing., and you are putting entirely two difference institutions where one is trying its best to advance human thought processes other one is trying its best to stagnate human thought processes

So called religions, I call them "faiths filled with faith heads" have the origins in human groups/cultures and their cultural phenomena which includes stagnated social structure, stagnated traditions, stagnated silly literature, stagnated silly sacred texts, silly songs and stagnated silly stories, and silly so-called sacred places with some silly rituals that preachers of these religions try control the societies with some after death apples oranges houries and good life.

on the other hand science is very flexible and works providing explanations for given process/hypothesis. Science depends on formal testing, open questioning of the results and give a way for future explanations of processes that we may or may not understand at present its possible future.

When scientists see that a proposed explanation has been well confirmed by repeated observations, it serves the scientific community as a reliable theory. A theory in science is the highest form of scientific explanation, not just a “mere opinion.”., Unlike religious rubbish, Even almost proven theories are open to question, if that almost proven theory is wrong by some one either now in future that theory /hypothesis will end up in dust bin.

So dear kephas don't put them together in one basket and say all are same fruity fruits

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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