Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →
↑ ↓
CEMB → Forum → Life, The Universe & Everything → Religions and Gods → Atheism discussion split from Will the True Islam Please Stand Up

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts

Do humans have needed kno...
Yesterday at 06:16 PM
اضواء على الطريق ....... ...
by akay
February 02, 2026, 11:54 AM
Random Islamic History Po...
by zeca
January 31, 2026, 01:09 PM
Lights on the way
by akay
January 30, 2026, 02:46 PM
What music are you listen...
by zeca
January 29, 2026, 09:20 PM
New Britain
by zeca
January 27, 2026, 08:45 AM
Qur'anic studies today
by zeca
January 23, 2026, 12:21 PM
ركن المتحدثين هايد بارك ل...
by akay
January 18, 2026, 02:48 PM
Is Iran/Persia going to b...
by zeca
January 18, 2026, 08:49 AM
What's happened to the fo...
January 09, 2026, 12:03 PM
Excellence and uniqueness
by akay
January 05, 2026, 10:14 AM
Marcion and the introduct...
by zeca
November 05, 2025, 11:34 PM

Theme Changer

 Topic: Atheism discussion split from Will the True Islam Please Stand Up

 (Read 5176 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Atheism discussion split from Will the True Islam Please Stand Up
     OP - July 13, 2015, 11:51 AM
    I get what you mean Suki, though I don't want to derail the read (I promise I'll stop after this post). I get the feeling that some just have the need to replace one delusion with another. This is why members of "movement atheism" can be so bitter, the toxicity of some new atheists on twitter is crazy high. Many commit the exact same fallacies that they accuse their religious counterparts of. Ironically, both new atheists and fundamentalist believers subscribe to the same interpretations of scripture.

    I also think that the "lack of belief" definition of atheism is bullshit. There's a reason why atheism is almost exclusively treated as a positive assertion in the philosophical literature. You can't write much about atheism if it's simply a "lack of belief". A belief is a mental state that one holds to be true. If I say that "I believe that Suki is a woman" this is another way of saying that "I hold the proposition that Suki is a woman , to be true".

    If babies are atheists because they "lack belief in God", then household items such as your kitchen knife and toaster are also "atheist" under this definition.
    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Will the
     Reply #1 - July 13, 2015, 12:55 PM
    Quote
    I was recently told that a box cake's instructions represented a philosophy


    That's stupid, just like Lacktheism (the insistence on the lack of belief definition of atheism).

    Also, the toaster argument was a reductio ad absurdum.
    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Will the
     Reply #2 - July 13, 2015, 12:56 PM
    Well, unfortunately for you, I thought it was cute and I was ready to go with it.
  • Will the
     Reply #3 - July 13, 2015, 01:02 PM
    What was cute?

    The philosophy of baking or claiming that atheism is simply a lack of belief?

    Idk about you guys, but I'd prefer to have a doxastic attitude towards the proposition that God exists. Insisting that one has no burden of proof is intellectual naivety.


    I'm tired.

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Will the
     Reply #4 - July 13, 2015, 01:05 PM
    Atheist appliances.
  • Will the
     Reply #5 - July 13, 2015, 01:09 PM
    Don't mind me, I'm just wearing my atheist jewelery.

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Will the
     Reply #6 - July 13, 2015, 01:52 PM
    Quote from: Qtian on July 13, 2015, 11:51 AM
    I get what you mean Suki, though I don't want to derail the read (I promise I'll stop after this post). I get the feeling that some just have the need to replace one delusion with another. This is why members of "movement atheism" can be so bitter, the toxicity of some new atheists on twitter is crazy high. Many commit the exact same fallacies that they accuse their religious counterparts of. Ironically, both new atheists and fundamentalist believers subscribe to the same interpretations of scripture.

    I also think that the "lack of belief" definition of atheism is bullshit. There's a reason why atheism is almost exclusively treated as a positive assertion in the philosophical literature. You can't write much about atheism if it's simply a "lack of belief". A belief is a mental state that one holds to be true. If I say that "I believe that Suki is a woman" this is another way of saying that "I hold the proposition that Suki is a woman , to be true".

    If babies are atheists because they "lack belief in God", then household items such as your kitchen knife and toaster are also "atheist" under this definition.



    Atheist is just a label and a word. Many religious people reject other religions as false hence they are atheists even for religions they never heard of since they already believe their religion is true. There are few plural religions left in the world with considerable numbers. What do we call people that do not have a belief in God beside an atheist. Word can change and evolve as part of language so I think atheist can have a definition of lack of belief. Parameters such as gnostic and agnostic can be used to differentiate between information sources.
  • Will the
     Reply #7 - July 13, 2015, 02:00 PM
    I'm too tired and can't really be bothered to post a proper reply. I also did promise that I wouldn't derail the thread, which may happen if I respond here. Feel free to set up a thread in the philosophy section if you want to discuss this, I'll chime in.  In short, I maintain that "lacktheism" plays fast and loose with important topics in epistemology. Particularly the fact that belief is a necessary component of knowledge which dissolves the belief vs knowledge distinction that gnostic atheism requires. which makes it an irrelevant parameter.

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Will the
     Reply #8 - July 13, 2015, 03:14 PM
    Quote from: lua on July 13, 2015, 12:49 PM


    I was recently told that a box cake's instructions represented a philosophy so you bet your sweet, sweet ass that I'm going to also consider my toaster an atheist toaster.



    Philosophy - is the talk on a cereal box. Religion – is the smile on a dog.
  • Will the
     Reply #9 - July 13, 2015, 03:29 PM
    I know that's a song lyric and all, but what does

    Quote
    Religion – is the smile on a dog.


    even mean?


    Edit: Shit, I should've stopped replying. I'm really bad at this not derailing everyone's threads stuff.
    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Will the
     Reply #10 - July 13, 2015, 03:32 PM
    Grin I wasn't cool enough to get that reference without google.
  • Will the
     Reply #11 - July 13, 2015, 03:45 PM
    Quote from: Qtian on July 13, 2015, 03:29 PM
    I know that's a song lyric and all, but what does

    even mean?


    Edit: Shit, I should've stopped replying. I'm really bad at this not derailing everyone's threads stuff.

    Grin No worries Qtian. I’m just as guilty. The song was the first thing that came to mind. I’m not 100% certain of the tafsir of that lyric, but it reminds me of the proverb, “When you see the lion showing its teeth, don’t think the lion is smiling at you.” Maybe it has something to do with that?

    And you’re still cool in my book, lua. We’ll keep your google secret safe here. (I had to google doxastic earlier. Grin )
  • Will the
     Reply #12 - July 13, 2015, 03:49 PM
    001_wub 001_wub Now excuse me while I also google doxastic.
  • Will the
     Reply #13 - July 13, 2015, 03:52 PM
    Yes...my evil plan has succeeded. I have finally got lua to start studying philosophy.

    Thank you HM for your assistance, may Allah be pleased with you.
    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Will the
     Reply #14 - July 13, 2015, 03:55 PM
    ^ apologies for changing topic also, split it if you need to.
  • Will the
     Reply #15 - July 14, 2015, 11:22 AM
    Quote from: suki on July 13, 2015, 03:55 PM
    ^ apologies for changing topic also, split it if you need to.

    No..No..noo apologies .. but this is such an important thread I hope mods could split the folder some where stating with that Qtian's post....
    Quote from: Qtian on July 13, 2015, 11:32 AM
    Marry me.

    I've been thinking about this "belief tribalism" for ages.


    Now going back., there is no doubt Quran has good verses to make some sort of "True Islam"  without hard and fast stupid  rules and silly rituals that could help the society ., The problem is filtering them and using them selectively .

     And I think this Agnostic Islam could go a looong way in helping Muslims.,Muslim sects and non-Muslims  living  together..

    with best wishes
    yeezevee
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Will the
     Reply #16 - July 14, 2015, 04:46 PM
    Quote from: Qtian on July 13, 2015, 02:00 PM
    I'm too tired and can't really be bothered to post a proper reply. I also did promise that I wouldn't derail the thread, which may happen if I respond here. Feel free to set up a thread in the philosophy section if you want to discuss this, I'll chime in.  In short, I maintain that "lacktheism" plays fast and loose with important topics in epistemology. Particularly the fact that belief is a necessary component of knowledge which dissolves the belief vs knowledge distinction that gnostic atheism requires. which makes it an irrelevant parameter.




    Atheism is just a lack of theism, theism is a belief in God(s) ergo atheism is a lack of belief in God(s). A failure of proof disproof, aka the theist does not provide a convincing argument, is ground enough for holding a soft view. Much as the Null Hypothesis in science.
  • Will the
     Reply #17 - July 14, 2015, 05:26 PM
    Quote
    Atheism is just a lack of theism, theism is a belief in God(s) ergo atheism is a lack of belief in God(s). A failure of proof disproof, aka the theist does not provide a convincing argument, is ground enough for holding a soft view. Much as the Null Hypothesis in science.


    If atheism is "just a lack of theism" then as aforementioned, my kitchen appliances are also atheistic as they lack belief in theism.  For me to lack X, I must be in a state without X. Agnostics would also be atheist under this definition. Amoebas would be, too. This is a basic reductio against dictionary atheism.

    Atheism in the actual academic literature (rather than online counterapologetics where everyone is apparently a philosopher) is treated as a positive assertion.

    Atheism is a philosophical position on the existence of deities. We assign philosophical positions to entities that have the ability to construct beliefs. Spoons and rocks can't form beliefs. Calling a rock an atheist makes no more sense than calling a rock a compatibilist. However, on lacktheism a rock is an atheist as it "lacks belief" in God.
    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Will the
     Reply #18 - July 14, 2015, 10:03 PM
     
    Quote from: Qtian on July 14, 2015, 05:26 PM
    ............Amoebas would be, too. This is a basic reductio against dictionary atheism.

    ...............Spoons and rocks can't form beliefs. Calling a rock an atheist makes no more sense than calling a rock a compatibilist..............


    ..............."Amoebas  can be atheist... Spoons.....rocks....poop  can be atheist   or or..  Amoebas  can be theist ..,  spoons.....rocks....poop  can be  theists".................

    Qtian...Qtian... what happened ? why are you saying that?...

    well I am sure you know .. If I take a Atheist ..or Theist  or Spoons.....rocks....poop and Amoebas  .. and and irradiate them with Gamma rays or hard x-rays.. they all emit fluorescent photons of some wavelength ..

    So for a given experiment under a given experimental conditions .. they all can be put in to Theism or in to  Atheism category..

    Anyway   guys., what is the point of this debate/discussion  specially under  this important folder  which started with an article from  Hassan  and has a name Will the "True Islam" Please Stand Up"??
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Will the
     Reply #19 - July 14, 2015, 10:08 PM
    Yeez, just stop please. You clearly don't have a clue what I'm talking about and I can't be bothered with you atm.
    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Lack of Belief isms
     Reply #20 - July 15, 2015, 04:05 PM
    Is it time to create a new term for a lack of belief not burdened by the baggage and modifiers of the term atheist? If not, how far can we modify a term before the modifiers and origin term conflict and cause issue? If yes, should lack of belief be classified as a term in relation to the concepts it is addressing? If so, what is this term? Maybe non-theism or non-theist.

    I am keeping my opening question simple to start fresh.



  • Atheism discussion split from Will the True Islam Please Stand Up
     Reply #21 - July 15, 2015, 04:07 PM
    For those interested just make post on the thread before. Clean slate with a few starting question to springboard the discussion.

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=29050.new#new

    Doh. I didn't notice the split. Can a mod delete my linked thread please. Thanks.
  • Lack of Belief isms
     Reply #22 - July 15, 2015, 04:40 PM
    .

    Removed post as the discussion is not taking place on this thread.
    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Atheism discussion split from Will the True Islam Please Stand Up
     Reply #23 - July 15, 2015, 04:53 PM
    Rocks do not have beliefs nor do ovens. Your comparison is flawed since theism is a concept which neither has the ability to communicate or even know.

    What alternative do you propose? I would rather see a divorce of non-theist and/or non-theist if following tradition. However I would also argue that traditionalist positions are not set in stone as per causality's fall in the last century or so. Atheism like causality could be applicable in certain contexts and not in others.

    I rest my position of atheist on that those making the claim for theism having not provided convincing argument. By this definition this is just rejection of the claims made by various forms of theism as a failed hypothesis.
  • Atheism discussion split from Will the True Islam Please Stand Up
     Reply #24 - July 15, 2015, 04:55 PM
    Quote from: bogart on July 15, 2015, 04:07 PM
    For those interested just make post on the thread before. Clean slate with a few starting question to springboard the discussion.

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=29050.new#new

    Doh. I didn't notice the split. Can a mod delete my linked thread please. Thanks.


    I just replied there.
    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Atheism discussion split from Will the True Islam Please Stand Up
     Reply #25 - July 15, 2015, 04:57 PM
    .

    Edit: I can no longer be bothered to drag on a discussion about definitions of atheism as I would need to invest a fuck lot of time in order to clarify my opinions. After which I'm sure we would end up agreeing.

    Due to time related reasons I have conceded the discussion to bogart.
    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Lack of Belief isms
     Reply #26 - July 15, 2015, 04:57 PM
    I am just going to hold off on a response since this is a duplicate thread I made before I realized there was a split. It will give mods time to fix my mistake. I copied both posts to a text document in case the merge deletes anything.
  • Lack of Belief isms
     Reply #27 - July 15, 2015, 05:07 PM
    Cool, I assumed that you had spotted the split.
    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Lack of Belief isms
     Reply #28 - July 15, 2015, 05:09 PM
    Nope. At time I just miss the title and just assume, my fault.
  • Atheism discussion split from Will the True Islam Please Stand Up
     Reply #29 - July 16, 2015, 11:54 AM
    No problem, check my previous reply.
    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »