Dawkins And Fatima Bhutto ....yeeha woo good fight good fight

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OP - July 26, 2015, 12:08 PM

Dawkins And Fatima Bhutto ....yeeha woo good fight good fight

Quote
Prominent thinker Richard Dawkins stepped into yet another messy debate online when he tweeted "Islam needs a feminist revolution. It will be hard. What can we do to help?" Dawkins has long been critical of all organized religions, though many have pointed out that he's overly harsh in his criticism of Islam. The question he posed above drew a heated reaction on Twitter, with some saying that Islam is inherently feminist, and others simply angry that Dawkins was commenting on the religion once again.

Fatima Bhutto, however, pointed out what really irked us about Dawkins' statement: the fact that he is yet another man trying to explain to women how best to live their lives. In other words, he's mansplaining, and so already in the wrong — mansplaining is definitely not the feminist way

https://twitter.com/RichardDawkins

Lot of Who--ish attention seekers.........

Quote
http://www.dawn.com/news/1196079/richard-dawkins-mansplains-feminism-to-muslim-women-bhutto-hits-back
http://www.themuslimtimes.org/2015/07/countries/uk/richard-dawkins-mansplains-feminism-to-muslim-women-bhutto-hits-back
http://www.uncommondescent.com/darwinism/richard-dawkins-one-man-circular-firing-squad/
http://ahmadiyyatimes.blogspot.com/2015/07/richard-dawkins-mansplains-feminism-to.html
https://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/3eki6j/friendlyatheist_publishes_an_attackarticle_on/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/richard-dawkins-islam-feminist-revolution_55b2bfd8e4b0074ba5a4b9e0?utm_hp_ref=religion

and more on that single tweet......
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2015/07/25/richard-dawkins-fails-spectacularly-on-feminism-and-islam/

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Reply #1 - July 26, 2015, 04:17 PM

I just had a discussion with a girl living in Pakistan. I said we should support muslim women who want to marry outside of their faith. Everyone should be free to choose their own spouse. She called me an intolerant, islamophobic bigot.

Her view was that such women were free to leave Islam, if they wanted that freedom (of course we all know how free people are to leave Islam, especially in muslim countries).

So I asked her if she agreed that the idea of portraying people leaving Islam should be propagated in Pakistan, to show that those who happen to leave Islam are also just normal decent human beings. In return she threw a temper tantrum, no way should any such idea as depicting ex-muslims as normal human beings, who just are not able to believe in Islam, be propagated in Pakistani media.

So who are these "muslim women" that Fatima Bhutto speak of? Are they all in agreement of everything, supporting the same set of ideas? Dawkins made a good statement, and he did not try to explain others how to live their lives, he asked how can he help muslim women achieve equal rights.

"Muslim women" are a diverse group of individuals, some of them don't even believe in Islam, and some just want to believe in the core message without having all the other restrictions being forced upon them. Of course Fatima Bhutto is being hailed, because Dawkins is an "islamophobe".
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Reply #2 - July 26, 2015, 07:52 PM

Seems like a hypersensitive response from Butto in which she alienates a person willing to help due to outrage.
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Reply #3 - July 26, 2015, 08:39 PM

She is from an uber-privileged background, and probably never was a victim of the hardships many "muslim women" have to endure. So its easy for her to dismiss an "islamophobe".

Also Dawkins called for a feminist revolution within Islam, there is no denying there are many misogynistic practices in muslim nations, which are the direct result of Islamic teachings. Instead of admitting that certain elements within Islam are problematic and needs to be reformed ,they will rather say those practices are unislamic, and make up all sort of excuses to justify misogynistic verses such as 4:34 for example.

Even highly educated muslim women will claim that 4:34 is actually liberating for muslim women, when it clearly states that men are allowed to hit women, and it addresses men, not women. But thats what thorough childhood indoctrination does for you I guess.
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Reply #4 - July 26, 2015, 08:53 PM

The famous 4:34 verse which according to muslim women means "caress lightly"
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Reply #5 - July 26, 2015, 10:28 PM

It's really amazing how people can choose to listen or twist certain verses of the quran and ignore the bad parts. There's really nothing wrong with what Dawkins is saying, Islam clearly has misogynistic practices, but yet again, due to childhood indoctrination and extreme bias, a lady like Bhutto has a butthurt response. Oh well I'm just going to 'caress lightly' my girlfriend.

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Reply #6 - July 26, 2015, 10:53 PM

Quote from: Roberto40 on July 26, 2015, 08:39 PM
Instead of admitting that certain elements within Islam are problematic

Not sure thats even true of most christians, after centuries of reform. I don't think significant reinterpretation is a deliberate process. Rather people are actually putting their values into their scripture, to which there is often a limit depending on the circumstances.
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Reply #7 - July 26, 2015, 11:17 PM

Quote from: Roberto40 on July 26, 2015, 08:39 PM
She is from an uber-privileged background, and probably never was a victim of the hardships many "muslim women" have to endure. So its easy for her to dismiss an "islamophobe".

Also Dawkins called for a feminist revolution within Islam, there is no denying there are many misogynistic practices in muslim nations, which are the direct result of Islamic teachings. Instead of admitting that certain elements within Islam are problematic and needs to be reformed ,they will rather say those practices are unislamic, and make up all sort of excuses to justify misogynistic verses such as 4:34 for example.

Even highly educated muslim women will claim that 4:34 is actually liberating for muslim women, when it clearly states that men are allowed to hit women, and it addresses men, not women. But thats what thorough childhood indoctrination does for you I guess.

I've never heard Muslim women say that. A lot of them try to behave as if that surah doesn't exist, same with polygamy.

Fatima Bhutto has been critical of Islam in the past. I know she did an apologist speech before but If you follow her on twitter she often tweets underhanded criticism esp. in regards to women in Islam.
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Reply #8 - July 27, 2015, 08:21 AM

I have not read her work, but I would not be surprised if she is in contention with a lot of the misogynistic practices of Islam. But then I don't get why she would dismiss Dawkins like that. Perhaps she is trying to score brownie points within the muslim world?

As for 4:34 and polygamy, I've actually seen highly educated muslim women defend those verses. 4:34 is defended by saying the strike part is last resort, and you are supposed to hit "lightly", and polygamy is defended by making up all sort of excuses, taking care of emotional and physical needs of widows yada yada. Some of them even defend Mohammed and his companions raping female captives of war.

Funniest bit about 4:34 being defended is that 4:34 actually addresses men, and how their conduct towards women should be. Just like all other verses in the Quran. Quran never addresses women the way it addresses men. There is not a shadow of doubt that the Quran was written by men, for men. Which just makes the whole case of "islamic feminisim" a tad bit ironic. There is no feminism within Islam, unless reforms are introduced, which requires the misogynistic teachings to unequivocally be accepted as misogynistic, and not utilization of some sort of warped religious logic to declare those teachings "unislamic".
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Reply #9 - July 27, 2015, 10:55 AM

http://fatimabhutto.com.pk/
Quote
http://fatimabhutto.com.pk/articles/local/ElleINDIA2.pdf ...Dec 2014

http://fatimabhutto.com.pk/articles/local/ElleINDIA1.pdf

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/69f2a05c-5664-11e0-84e9-00144feab49a.html#axzz3W98w34Rh

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Reply #10 - July 27, 2015, 11:13 AM

Quote from: Skywalker on July 26, 2015, 10:53 PM
Not sure thats even true of most christians, after centuries of reform. I don't think significant reinterpretation is a deliberate process. Rather people are actually putting their values into their scripture, to which there is often a limit depending on the circumstances.

That is true. Many christians (in the west) have adopted a mellowed approach to religion, and therefore we have cultural christians, who might never have really read the bible, nor care about what the bible says. They just pretend their scripture is preaching the same thing as the secular humanist values found in their societies.

Some muslims are trying to do the same, by preaching that Mohammed was a champion of feminism for example, but yet most of them can't get away from him marrying a nine year old, verses like 4:34, women inheriting half of men, women not having the same right to divorce as men, polygamy etc. They will just use some sort of warped Islamic logic to sugercoat those problematic aspects of Islam.

So there is either one of two I guess,

1. Muslims at large adopt a similar mellowed approach to religion, where religion doesn't get to dictate all aspects of life for muslims. They keep religion out of sociopolitics, because that is a sure recipe for disaster anyway.

2. Muslims at large acknowledge that there are problematic aspects of Islam, which need to be acknowledged and dealt with, instead of sugercoating them.

In a country like Pakistan, either of two unfortunately seem quite hard to achieve.
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Reply #11 - July 27, 2015, 12:33 PM

Quote from: Roberto40 on July 27, 2015, 11:13 AM
That is true. Many christians (in the west) have adopted a mellowed approach to religion, and therefore we have cultural christians, who might never have really read the bible, nor care about what the bible says. They just pretend their scripture is preaching the same thing as the secular humanist values found in their societies.................

hello Roberto40., I wonder whether you have any idea/hypothesis "Why Many christians (]in the west or even in East) have adopted a mellowed approach to religion"? Off course they do proselytize their religious view but still .. They just go to the extent Christ Died for your sins and you are saved so you can continue doing sins

Anyways I am of the opinion that is because of this nature of narration of the stories of Christ by Christians in churches. Would you agree with that? Frankly speaking the presence or absence of this god/Allah super duper controller of this universe makes no difference to these religious proselytizers and to millions of their followers. All the these so-called religion based societies and their structure depends upon not only their books/scriptures but the stories told on these heroes/main characters of these religions. Because these societies in the past and even today thrive on the stories of these heros and hero worship...

And..And.... I tell you STORIES BASED OF PROPHET OF ISLAM PROPAGATED IN MOSQUES SUCKS.. Unfortunately that stupid hadith even to some extent Quran corroborate those stories and makes that impossible to change the character of final Prophet of Islam "Muhammad"

That is the fundamental problem in Islam and that is my opinion..

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Reply #12 - July 28, 2015, 04:35 PM

Yeez, I do agree that the difference between the character of Jesus and Mo, does make it harder to reform Islam. Because Jesus never did much of what Mo did, but I'm pretty sure Jesus too had some actions which we today view as morally wrong. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable would like to comment on that?
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Reply #13 - October 05, 2020, 01:06 PM

Fatima Bhutto talks with with Susan Abulhawa on her book The Runaways well let me hear a bit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lKJHJRo5Po

she is really a good story teller of real lives.

well that is the book and here is review of it in that guardian.com

Quote
The Runaways by Fatima Bhutto review – pathways to Islamist extremism

Anita Rose lives in Karachi: her home is a small cement room where she sleeps on the floor alongside her mother and brother. Monty is from Karachi too, although his well-heeled Pakistani parents prefer Chelsea, ordering Addison Lee cabs rather than risk the over-familiarities of Uber drivers when travelling from Heathrow to their Sloane Square flat. Meanwhile in Portsmouth, lonely Sunny listens to Frank Ocean albums. He is perplexed both by the desi girls determined to seduce him and by his immigrant father’s insistence that he assimilate. Together, they form the title characters of Fatima Bhutto’s searching and ambitious new novel, The Runaways.............

"As real-life British-born 'jihadi brides' plead their right to return home, this novel seems more pertinent than ever"

it is all about Jihad ..Jihadis and their brides from east and west

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-_WHBZqekg

and that is another discussion on that book from Fatima...

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Reply #14 - October 05, 2020, 01:33 PM

well I am not sure why I am adding this video and the book on economy and morals and totalitarian regimes here but it is needed in the forum,, I need to watch and read them again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27Tf8RN3uiM

FROM UNDER THE RUBBLE

and that book is worth reading .. and it is from great Russian guys of past ..

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Reply #15 - October 05, 2020, 02:43 PM

Quote from: Roberto40 on July 27, 2015, 11:13 AM
1. Muslims at large adopt a similar mellowed approach to religion, where religion doesn't get to dictate all aspects of life for muslims.

in west countries, the problem is the individual versus the state, rather than mellow vs extreme.

Quote from:
2. Muslims at large acknowledge that there are problematic aspects of Islam, which need to be acknowledged and dealt with, instead of sugercoating them.

better not to engage with religious interpretation or even try rationalising it.
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Reply #16 - October 05, 2020, 02:58 PM

Quote from: crumble on October 05, 2020, 02:43 PM
in west countries, the problem is the individual versus the state, rather than mellow vs extreme.

better not to engage with religious interpretation or even try rationalising it.

Oops.. well I actually wanted you to critique my response to Roberto40 .,, to this one https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=29109.msg829396#msg829396

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Reply #17 - October 05, 2020, 05:46 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on July 27, 2015, 12:33 PM
Frankly speaking the presence or absence of this god/Allah super duper controller of this universe makes no difference to these religious proselytizers and to millions of their followers.

And..And.... I tell you STORIES BASED OF PROPHET OF ISLAM PROPAGATED IN MOSQUES SUCKS.. Unfortunately that stupid hadith even to some extent Quran corroborate those stories and makes that impossible to change the character of final Prophet of Islam "Muhammad"

most christians and muslims don't know that much about their religions beyond the popular glosses. the volume of textual sources allows you mis/represent characters as you see fit.

you're right, the question of god's existence is mostly irrelevant to these religions. instead, personality worship is where it's at.
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Reply #18 - October 05, 2020, 08:15 PM

Quote from: crumble on October 05, 2020, 05:46 PM
most christians and muslims don't know that much about their religions beyond the popular glosses. the volume of textual sources allows you mis/represent characters as you see fit.

you're right, .................

that is NOT helping me crumble.... anyway let me watch this Imam from US of A.. Khaled Abou El Fadl

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goisjhREHIk

On that Imam News at https://www.rabwah.net/opinion-islamist-identity-troubles/ says Islamist Identity Troubles with this picture

Quote
When officials at the Islamic Center of Southern California (ICSC) told prominent imam Khaled Abou El Fadl that his invitation to give the Friday sermon at the mosque had been rescinded, he was furious. Before a small group of his own supporters at the Usuli Institute, he launched an hour-long attack on ICSC officials, at times screaming with rage and repeatedly stabbing his walking stick into the ground. He condemned the ICSC as “mute devils,” “idiots” and “authoritarians.”

What exactly did the ICSC do to make El Fadl so furious? According to the enraged imam, he had told the ICSC of his intention to give funeral prayers for the late Muslim Brotherhood leader Mohamed Morsi, and offer a sermon about Morsi’s death and the ostensible evils of the current Egyptian government that kept him imprisoned. An ICSC official then reportedly told Fadl that “not everyone views these events in the same way,” and the ICSC “avoids taking sides.” An internal ICSC message also noted that El Fadl had, to the supposed dismay of ICSC officials, previously presented sermons on similar issues, “sparking immediate and significant outburst by some Egyptian members of the Center.”

El Fadl rejected their response. “You have killed our religion,” he spoke of ICSC officials before his own congregation. “Allah is ashamed to look at you” and your “decrepit, immoral intellectual legacy.” He even went so far as to deem ICSC staff as “not Muslims” – an extremely serious accusation within Islam, often used by Islamists to justify violence. El Fadl placed particular blame on Egyptian “immigrants” at the Center, stating that the ICSC brings the “same authoritarian and despotic garbage that immigrants bring from back home – that rotten, rotten mentality.”

Some Egyptian Muslims, it seems to El Fadl’s fury, do not share his unwavering commitment to Egyptian Islamism.....

well there is lot more at that link but that is good enough for me to know about that Prof. Khaled Abou El Fadl of The Usuli Institute

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