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 Topic: Blown away

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  • Blown away
     Reply #30 - August 05, 2015, 03:37 PM

    My belief is based on science so it's pretty hard for me to not be 100% certain.




    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irKxtVOymXY


    Science, however, does not.

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Blown away
     Reply #31 - August 05, 2015, 03:45 PM

    Welcome Ted. You can call me mediocre... Or musivore even.

    (I've just realised that my phone auto-corrects 'musivore' to 'mediocre'. It seems the machines are catching on quickly, and can sense the level of intelligence they are dealing with even if the users themselves are ignorant of their own failings. Alas, I fear we have little time left before they take over completely. Run for the hills brethren).

    (And lol HM - Naughty. But made me chuckle on a quiet train)

    Hi
  • Blown away
     Reply #32 - August 05, 2015, 04:02 PM

    ^ this made me literally lol for the second time today reading on this forum (HM was the first) Grin I am truly blessed to have gotten to know such mediocre fine people as you, my good sir.

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Blown away
     Reply #33 - August 05, 2015, 04:19 PM

    Welcome.

    My belief is based on science so it's pretty hard for me to not be 100% certain.


    That's patently wrong. See the problem of induction. Science cannot achieve 100% certainty in anything. Even quantum electrodynamics, one of the best tested scientific theories, hasn't achieved 100% certainty.

    If you're talking about "100% certainty" outside of mathematics and deductive logics (which you are), you're making no sense.

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Blown away
     Reply #34 - August 05, 2015, 04:31 PM

    Belief - this is something you believe in.


    Thanks for clarifying this.  Afro

    Welcome  parrot
  • Blown away
     Reply #35 - August 05, 2015, 04:32 PM

    Welcome Ted Smiley

    Is there anything that can change your mind about Islam being true?
  • Blown away
     Reply #36 - August 05, 2015, 04:45 PM

    This thread is a gold mine.

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Blown away
     Reply #37 - August 05, 2015, 04:54 PM

    I've spent over 10 years trying to understand Quran and finally I feel like I now understand (most of) it.

    Understood as in having read the translation or studied Tafseer? If so, which books?
    I welcome people to challenge my belief in God and the Quran and Bible.

    Does this mean you acknowledge the present day version of the Bible as divine? Also, by "God", which god are you referring to? A personal god like Allah or the god of the philosophers and deists? You need to be more specific.
    I definitely deny human evolution - there is absolutely no scientific evidence for it. I've read the books,  seen the vids, etc. it's all nonsense.

    Ok, let's presume the theory of evolution is false. I assume you are a creationist (correct me if I'm wrong). If so, what do you consider evidence for creation? Also, what do you consider science? Things that make sense and confirms your views about the world or testable hypotheses that can be replicated, scrutinized by colleagues through peer-reviews, produce predictions and most importantly involves empirical observations?
    My belief is based on science so it's pretty hard for me to not be 100% certain.

     This is pure arrogance.
    Many folk have huge misunderstanding of faith and belief so I will define below:

    Belief - this is something you believe in. Such has there being God, angeles, hereafter, heaven, hell, pilgrimage , etc.
    Faith - this is trust in God in the religious context. If you don't have a belief in God, ie you don't know if he exists, then you can't really have faith. A believer can have zero faith yet have 100% belief that God exists.

    This sounds like pure semantics and is really muddled thinking in my opinion. Pilgrimage, angels, hereafter, heaven, hell are all derived from religion. Your sentence would make a little bit sense if you only mentioned God. A lot of people have faith in a god while rejecting the religious beliefs of hell, heaven etc. Also, what is your definition based on - some groundbreaking piece of knowledge or just plain conjecture?
  • Blown away
     Reply #38 - August 05, 2015, 05:17 PM

    ^ this made me literally lol for the second time today reading on this forum (HM was the first) Grin I am truly blessed to have gotten to know such mediocre fine people as you, my good sir.


    Thanks for making me smile Smiley

    Hi
  • Blown away
     Reply #39 - August 05, 2015, 05:40 PM

    OK so you are punishing them because of them being inconsistent with their beliefs - rather than it having anything to do with deterring a crime or 'protecting' society.

    Can't such inconsistency be left to God to deal with?


    In the case of fornication what crime is there? Whether this 'protects' society depends on how you define the protection.

    Such inconsistencies like this are handled by God and will also be handled by God on the Day of Judgement. Would you prefer it if God left people to do as they please?
  • Blown away
     Reply #40 - August 05, 2015, 05:55 PM

    In the case of fornication what crime is there?


    Precisely!

    So why flog them for being inconsistent to their beliefs. It seems like cruel and barbaric - not to mention totally counter-productive way of encouraging people to be consistent in their beliefs.

    Would you prefer it if God left people to do as they please?


    Yes.
  • Blown away
     Reply #41 - August 05, 2015, 05:56 PM

    Welcome.

    That's patently wrong. See the problem of induction. Science cannot achieve 100% certainty in anything. Even quantum electrodynamics, one of the best tested scientific theories, hasn't achieved 100% certainty.

    If you're talking about "100% certainty" outside of mathematics and deductive logics (which you are), you're making no sense.


    We will never know what the absolute truth is. That's just how we are designed/created. However we can base certainty upon the reality we observe even though those observations may later turn out to be incorrect. For example if you observe that the sun goes around the earth then based on that observation it is certain. However if later on it turns out that earth is stationary then you were wrong and can now be certain that it's the earth which orbits the sun. By the way I'm leaning towards geocentrism but maybe more of that later.
  • Blown away
     Reply #42 - August 05, 2015, 06:04 PM

    Welcome Ted Smiley

    Is there anything that can change your mind about Islam being true?


    Not sure what you mean by Islam. Islam for me is a combination of belief and practices. If you're asking whether there is anything that can make doubt that the Quran is false then yes there are many things. If it's about God not being true then no.
  • Blown away
     Reply #43 - August 05, 2015, 06:05 PM

    Quote
    We will never know what the absolute truth is. That's just how we are designed/created. However we can base certainty upon the reality we observe even though those observations may later turn out to be incorrect. For example if you observe that the sun goes around the earth then based on that observation it is certain.


    Red herring. Whether or not we can know what "absolute truth" is, is irrelevant to my post. 100% certitude isn't a level of certainty that scientific activity can reach. As for your sun example, Goodman's new riddle of induction deals with that.

    With all due respect, you have a very naive epistemology.


    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Blown away
     Reply #44 - August 05, 2015, 06:05 PM

    "By the way I'm leaning towards geocentrism but maybe more of that later"

    And the plot thickens. I think HM has his answer.

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Blown away
     Reply #45 - August 05, 2015, 06:32 PM

    Troll
  • Blown away
     Reply #46 - August 05, 2015, 06:33 PM

    100% certitude isn't a level of certainty that scientific activity can reach.


    ..and why not? How did you arrive to this conclusion? Maybe you need to understand the meaning of "certainty".
  • Blown away
     Reply #47 - August 05, 2015, 06:35 PM

    As I've said twice now, because of the problem of induction. The problem attaches an epistemic limit to scientific activity. The specific limit is that "If X is a scientific activity then X cannot achieve 100% certainty".

    I feel that it's you and not myself, who has a problem with understanding what "100% certainty" means within the context of scientific and inductive activities.



    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Blown away
     Reply #48 - August 05, 2015, 06:36 PM

    By the way I'm leaning towards geocentrism but maybe more of that later.


    Troll
  • Blown away
     Reply #49 - August 05, 2015, 06:51 PM

    So why flog them for being inconsistent to their beliefs. It seems like cruel and barbaric - not to mention totally counter-productive way of encouraging people to be consistent in their beliefs.


    You flog them for being inconsistent with their beliefs because the subscribed to them. If a community of people all agree to obey a set of laws and rules and some members of the community disobey it then is not punishment due? If not then what's the point of having the laws and rules? If people want to leave that community because they don't like the laws and rules then it's fine let them leave and do as they please.

    As believers in God and the Quran we have agreed to abide by the laws we believe God has given to us. So even if no one makes a charge against us or sees us commit a crime we still have to repent and redeem ourselves to comply with the covenant we have with God. If you don't then you're not really a believer and maybe you need to increase your belief and faith in God.

    How do you know it's "counter-productive way of encouraging people to be consistent in their beliefs". Do you know the consequences? Can you see into the future? Do you have responsibility? Are you going to be around for ever? Do people belong to you?

    Sorry but I think you're forgetting who you are and what your limits are. It's fine to discuss these things as I think God wants people to truly believe rather than blindly follow but we also need to bear in mind who we are.
  • Blown away
     Reply #50 - August 05, 2015, 07:00 PM

    As I've said twice now, because of the problem of induction. The problem attaches an epistemic limit to scientific activity. The specific limit is that "If X is a scientific activity then X cannot achieve 100% certainty".

    I feel that it's you and not myself, who has a problem with understanding what "100% certainty" means within the context of scientific and inductive activities.


    OK so are you saying that if I observe my car on the drive using my eyes and can go and touch it then I can't be 100% certain that my car is not on my drive?
  • Blown away
     Reply #51 - August 05, 2015, 07:05 PM

    That has nothing to do with the problem of induction. Since when did "taking a look at my car" become a process that involves the scientific method?

    I seriously recommend that you read some actual philosophy, your arguments are almost embarrassing. Start with David Hume.


    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Blown away
     Reply #52 - August 05, 2015, 07:45 PM

    You flog them for being inconsistent with their beliefs because the subscribed to them. If a community of people all agree to obey a set of laws and rules and some members of the community disobey it then is not punishment due? If not then what's the point of having the laws and rules? If people want to leave that community because they don't like the laws and rules then it's fine let them leave and do as they please.

    As believers in God and the Quran we have agreed to abide by the laws we believe God has given to us. So even if no one makes a charge against us or sees us commit a crime we still have to repent and redeem ourselves to comply with the covenant we have with God. If you don't then you're not really a believer and maybe you need to increase your belief and faith in God.

    How do you know it's "counter-productive way of encouraging people to be consistent in their beliefs". Do you know the consequences? Can you see into the future? Do you have responsibility? Are you going to be around for ever? Do people belong to you?

    Sorry but I think you're forgetting who you are and what your limits are. It's fine to discuss these things as I think God wants people to truly believe rather than blindly follow but we also need to bear in mind who we are.



    But why flogging?

    Does that seem a reasonable punishment?

    Of course I know why you defend it. It's because the Qur'an says it. So all discussion then must stop. Has it occured to you that the Qur'an is not the word of God? Did you watch the video I posted?
  • Blown away
     Reply #53 - August 05, 2015, 07:53 PM

    Watch "Is the Qur'an a Miracle?" on YouTube
    https://youtu.be/2CHm2xigkBc



    I saw the vid.  Was interesting and I can see where the atheists/ex-muslims are coming from. I agree with most of the vid that you can't really claim that the Quran contains scientific miracles. Any scientific claim could be dismissed as already having been discovered or just a lucky guess.

    I think many people have misunderstood the verses about no one being able to write something like the Quran. I think the correct meaning is that no one can write a book and say it is from God unless God himself reveals it to them. Books/words can be written by anyone and made to be eloquent, motivating, inspiring, deep, etc. The Quran is actually very strong in it's language. God isn't nicely persuading people he's telling them exactly how things are going to be and if you don't like then tough. If God was so nice would anyone take him seriously? Why should the creator of the heavens and earth be so concerned about people who willfully want to disobey him when he has trillions of beings willfully obeying him? Why should God give rewards to those who are ungrateful and are not willing to sacrifice a few days of misery?

    Another thing that many atheists and people of other religion don't understand is that the Quran is a confirmation of the previous revelations. It's not a new "religion". So of course it's going to have things from previous revelations. Also the vast majority of previous civilisations all started off with the belief in the true one God but over generations they made their own gods up. Hence that's why those civilisations have some things common with other religions.

    It's not a simple case of "there are hundreds of religions so they all can't be true". You need to understand humans and history better.

    So, I think the vid was great. False things should rightly be discarded and shown to be false.

  • Blown away
     Reply #54 - August 05, 2015, 07:56 PM

    I saw the vid.  Was interesting and I can see where the atheists/ex-muslims are coming from. I agree with most of the vid that you can't really claim that the Quran contains scientific miracles. Any scientific claim could be dismissed as already having been discovered or just a lucky guess.

    I think many people have misunderstood the verses about no one being able to write something like the Quran. I think the correct meaning is that no one can write a book and say it is from God unless God himself reveals it to them. Books/words can be written by anyone and made to be eloquent, motivating, inspiring, deep, etc. The Quran is actually very strong in it's language. God isn't nicely persuading people he's telling them exactly how things are going to be and if you don't like then tough. If God was so nice would anyone take him seriously? Why should the creator of the heavens and earth be so concerned about people who willfully want to disobey him when he has trillions of beings willfully obeying him? Why should God give rewards to those who are ungrateful and are not willing to sacrifice a few days of misery?

    Another thing that many atheists and people of other religion don't understand is that the Quran is a confirmation of the previous revelations. It's not a new "religion". So of course it's going to have things from previous revelations. Also the vast majority of previous civilisations all started off with the belief in the true one God but over generations they made their own gods up. Hence that's why those civilisations have some things common with other religions.

    It's not a simple case of "there are hundreds of religions so they all can't be true". You need to understand humans and history better.

    So, I think the vid was great. False things should rightly be discarded and shown to be false.




    So how do you know the Qur'an is God's word?
  • Blown away
     Reply #55 - August 05, 2015, 07:57 PM

    Because it says so, duhh!! Pshht, kafirs...FFS...
  • Blown away
     Reply #56 - August 05, 2015, 07:59 PM

    Since when did "taking a look at my car" become a process that involves the scientific method?


    Really? Please do explain how it's not a process that involves scientific method/activity (take your pick as you seem wishy washy on your understanding of this).
  • Blown away
     Reply #57 - August 05, 2015, 07:59 PM

    If God was so nice would anyone take him seriously?


    Erm... yes I would actually... certainly much more than if he behaved like a petulant, vain sadistic arsehole which he does in the Qur'an (and Bible)!

    btw I'm not an Atheist. I am an Agnostic Muslim.
  • Blown away
     Reply #58 - August 05, 2015, 08:01 PM

    Because it says so, duhh!! Pshht, kafirs...FFS...


    lol... Oh boy I'm so tired of all this nonsense - I don't know why I bother debating.
  • Blown away
     Reply #59 - August 05, 2015, 08:03 PM

    I definitely deny human evolution - there is absolutely no scientific evidence for it. I've read the books,  seen the vids, etc. it's all nonsense.


    What is your explanation for the fossil record of all the other Hominid species that have existed over the last 7 million years that have gradually increasing cranial capacity? And what about the transitional fossils? i.e. the skulls that look like half way between Homo erectus and Homo hiedelbergensis, or half way between Homo heidelbergensis and Homo sapiens, etc?

    When you say you deny Human evolution does that mean you also deny evolution of other animals? Or that humans are a special case?
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