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 Topic: Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves

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  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #420 - August 14, 2015, 06:40 PM
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_LY-LZtJAs
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #421 - August 14, 2015, 06:40 PM
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CnZ3n8I5b8

    Nice debate.
    My nasheed. Sing it with me!
  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #422 - August 14, 2015, 06:42 PM
    Quote from: CallMeTed on August 14, 2015, 06:34 PM
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eW6egHV6jAw

    Some good work.


    Meyers is unqualified to speak about evolution. He has not published a single paper which passed review supporting his claims. It is why he writes books for pop-culture. He can not get his work published by any credible journal.

    Michael Shermer destroyed Fazale Rana in another debate as does Myers.. Rana has the same problem, his work is only published by sources which do not have any peer-review.

    Take a guess what fallacy you just used.
  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #423 - August 14, 2015, 06:43 PM
    Unlike the bloke in the vid I posted. Smiley
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #424 - August 14, 2015, 06:54 PM
    Quote from: bogart on August 14, 2015, 06:42 PM
    Meyers is unqualified to speak about evolution. He has not published a single paper which passed review supporting his claims. It is why he writes books for pop-culture. He can not get his work published by any credible journal.

    Michael Shermer destroyed Fazale Rana in another debate as does Myers.. Rana has the same problem, his work is only published by sources which do not have any peer-review.

    Take a guess what fallacy you just used.


    Interesting. Apparently Meyers paper was pulled from the journal...I wonder why?

    Maybe you should look at the work yourself and decide rather than the opinions of people? Afro
    My nasheed. Sing it with me!
  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #425 - August 14, 2015, 06:54 PM
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genus

    in the name of... fck really?

    Many scientists don't know about this??? I learned about animal kingdom in school! This is very basic concept!

    How do you even talk about refuting evolution without basic understanding of biology?
  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #426 - August 14, 2015, 07:03 PM
    Quote from: CallMeTed on August 14, 2015, 06:54 PM
    Interesting. Apparently Meyers paper was pulled from the journal...I wonder why?

    Maybe you should look at the work yourself and decide rather than the opinions of people? Afro


    It was pulled since the editor was biased. Once it was sent out to people not selected by the editor his paper failed. Simple

    Unlike you I do not suffer from the K-D effect thus do not believe I am capable of reviewing papers outside my field of expertise. Considering I have already demonstrated your own lack of knowledge of evolution I believe your ego is an issue. 1. You do not accept your own ignorance of topics you discuss. 2. Your ego has placed you above those with formal education in the topic you discussed. After all you are the one making a claim that biologists are wrong and you can prove them wrong. All while demonstrating a complete lack of a high school education.
  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #427 - August 14, 2015, 07:13 PM
    Lol.

    I think I should call it a day. I don't want to be accused of trolling. I'd like all of the members to chill out. Take it easy. In my honest opinion no one really understands the science of evolution and DNA fossils and geology and dating techniques, etc. etc.

    It's huge. All those areas are absolutely huge. Which is why I said the gaps are getting bigger rather than smaller the more we learn and discover. Please all of just relax. Take the time to read the research yourself and understand it for what it is. Richard Dawkins is a fraud but the way he speaks is very convincing. Man, I loved that guy at one time. He was like a breath of fresh air among the confused blind followers.

    It's obvious that I'm not great at clearly explaining complex matters or even simple ones at that. Please keep reading and learning and being good. If anything you owe that to yourselves at least.

    I need to go and strengthen my faith by doing some good deeds and helping people and learning to be humble and get rid of arrogance and make myself a great person. Apologies if I offended anyone.
    My nasheed. Sing it with me!
  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #428 - August 14, 2015, 07:22 PM
    I'm still confused on what putting King of the Ex-Muslim, which is clearly a joke, has to do with anything. You seem to think it has something to do with something. Also still unclear on how or why you think evolution is evidence for or against a god.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #429 - August 14, 2015, 07:24 PM
    Allow the man to gracefully bow out, Quod. We can all read between the lines.
  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #430 - August 14, 2015, 07:28 PM
    Just to confirm you guys won.  Afro
    My nasheed. Sing it with me!
  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #431 - August 14, 2015, 07:29 PM
    Let it rest QSE... He just wants people to think that complex life are all created by miracle, not by nature.

    That way, God of the gaps will never disappear.

    The less we understand about nature the more we rely on God for explanations.
  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #432 - August 14, 2015, 07:42 PM
    Quote from: CallMeTed on August 14, 2015, 04:01 PM
    You sound very young so I'll be patient.

    Let's say you trust your dad with your life. One day your dad says the sky is red. DO you believe him because he's your dad and you trust him or do you go out and look at the sky to verify it?

    Let's say you are talking to a convicted thief. He tells you the sun will rise up tomorrow. Do you not believe him?

    The point which you don't seem to get is that sometimes you need to look at the what the person is saying rather than who they are. You get my drift?


    Okay we are going on your route, blindly believe in the Abrahamic message. It's not important the messenger, the message is important.

    Ted listen I'm the new MO. I receive some revelations the other day. God (the real god, the abrahamic one) told me to add some very good things to Islam. Well also to cut some nonsense like Sun rotating around Earth. God consider men have evolved and need a new message Ted. Trust me, very good things I have to add. Would you blindly believe Ted?  Would you? Messenger is not important Ted, remember.

    And if you still don't trust in my message, let's take Mirza Ghulam Ahmad dude. He has a very good message for Muslims folks. Why don't you believe in his message?

  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #433 - August 14, 2015, 08:10 PM
    Lol. You need to understand the quran and Bible to understand why Mirza dude was fake. Jesus was the Word (with capital W) of God. Few people realise what that means. Jesus was never crucified and it's fine for Christians to believe he did as that is what was witnessed.

    I do know where you're coming from though and it's actually good to critically think like that. I've been there and done that.
    My nasheed. Sing it with me!
  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #434 - August 14, 2015, 08:18 PM
    Quote from: CallMeTed on August 14, 2015, 08:10 PM
    Lol. You need to understand the quran and Bible to understand why Mirza dude was fake. Jesus was the Word (with capital W) of God. Few people realise what that means. Jesus was never crucified and it's fine for Christians to believe he did as that is what was witnessed.

    I do know where you're coming from though and it's actually good to critically think like that. I've been there and done that.








    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #435 - August 14, 2015, 08:25 PM
    I'm going to follow happymurtad;s advice. Ted, if you want to pick up where we left off in the one on one in the future, feel free. Thanks for taking the time, I imagine it could of been frustrating at points.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #436 - August 14, 2015, 08:41 PM
    Quote from: CallMeTed on August 14, 2015, 08:10 PM
    Lol. You need to understand the quran and Bible to understand why Mirza dude was fake. Jesus was the Word (with capital W) of God. Few people realise what that means. Jesus was never crucified and it's fine for Christians to believe he did as that is what was witnessed.

    I do know where you're coming from though and it's actually good to critically think like that. I've been there and done that.


    Ohh I'm sure you do know. That's way so obviously you avoided to name the hadiths that you accept. And also trying so hard to deny the importance of messenger/prophet's character.

    I think HM is right that you have a level of doubt and I also think he gave you some very good counsel. I will also like to point out that nobody can prove that God does not exist, but it's easily to prove that Abrahamic God doesn't, because of the amount of fallacies in their scriptures which are now proven to be false. So why not an agnostic?
  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #437 - August 14, 2015, 10:50 PM
    Quote from: happymurtad on August 14, 2015, 01:46 PM
    Hey Ted,

    I was still curious as to why it is so important for you to “disprove” human evolution or to “disprove” that planets formed through the attraction of particles in space? I don’t understand why you would need for those things to be false in order to maintain your faith in God.

    Does it mean that if those things were suddenly proven to be true beyond the shadow of reasonable doubt, you would instantly lose your faith?

    The reason I ask is because, as I stated above, there are numerous instances in the Qur’an where a literal understanding of the verses contradict what we now know to be true about our world and universe. These instances do not seem to shake your faith. As I mentioned, the Qur’an is literally wrong on the origin of semen, it is literally wrong on the formation of the human embryo, it is literally wrong on the sun setting in a fetid spring, it is literally wrong there being 7 earths, etc. While you have taken the bizarre step of arguing for the plausibility of the geocentric model, it seems as though you will continue to back yourself into an untenable corner if you insist on taking the Qur’an's descriptions literally and continue to insist on denying scientific consensus in order to do so.

    That is well within your right if you want to do that. It just seems like a very odd and difficult position to maintain.

    Alternatively, couldn’t you maintain your faith in God and just accept that the Quran could just be, as it claims to be, in the language of the people to whom it was first revealed?

    Language is more than just the words themselves, it is the conveyance of a culture, a reflection of the mode of understanding.

    Just as you would never expect to find references to iPhones or twitter or supersonic jets in the Qur’an, why would you expect to find confirmations of scientific knowledge that we’ve only now begun to understand? And why should that be a problem for you? Isn’t the Qur’an just a means pointing people to something far greater than itself? God?

    Never does the Qur’an present anything more about the cosmos and creation than the prevalent understandings of its time. Why would it? It was “the words of a noble messenger,” right? And that messenger was dealing with a certain people in a certain context. Was the goal to get people hooked on the Quran itself, or to get them engaged with God? As Bruce Lee said, “It is like a finger pointing away the moon. Don’t concentrate on the finger or you will miss all that heavenly glory." The Qur’an is the finger pointing. God is the moon. The Qur’an is not God.

    Why must you restrict your god to this small, limited, 7th century box? Wouldn’t it be far more interesting and mysterious if, every time we learned or observed something new about our universe, it pushed our understanding of God even further? If you maintained your faith, wouldn’t that truly make your god akbar. Isn’t he actually greater than just a flawed and literal understanding of one religious book?

    When Muhammad died and many of the people who believed in him began to lose their faith, it’s reported that Abu Bakr stood up and reminded the people that Muhammad was just a man. “Whoever worshipped Muhammad, Muhammad is dead. But whoever worshiped God, then God is living and never dies.”

    Can’t we say the same thing today to those who insist on worshiping a literal understanding of the Qur’an? The Qur’an is just a book." Whoever worshiped a literal understanding of the Qur’an, then a literal understanding of the Qur’an is dead. But whoever worshipped God, then God is living and never dies.”



    I know why it's important to him....

    Quote from: gal_from_usa on August 08, 2015, 12:57 AM
    Luke's author came from a different school of thought, that the important thing was making it sound true, tying it to reality. Matthew's author didn't care about tying it to reality; when he says "that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets...." in the first few chapters, he's deliberately lying about what the prophets said to make you throw up your hands in disgust and walk away. Luke's author, on the other hand, tells you he's a historian. He works hard to establish that he's spent a lot of time and energy researching and interviewing people. He makes a point of dropping names of people and places. His religion is a lot like yours, it's based largely on convincing people that it's real. And as with any issue in life, you can find this perfectly elucidated on star trek:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zFOdQYmTrk

    The religion you created, and that the author of Luke created, is real in your minds. And you are trying to convince others it is real; you are the dreamer and the dream.


    It's important to him because that's the thing his faith is based on. Like Benny Hill, it is real in his mind: he created it, and it is real. His entire religion is based on convincing everyone else that it is real, and that it is tied to reality in some way. Allegory or parables are not a part of that faith. It all has to be real. Completely real. Just like it is in his mind.
    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #438 - August 14, 2015, 11:12 PM
    Quote from: CallMeTed on August 14, 2015, 08:10 PM
    Lol. You need to understand the quran and Bible to understand why Mirza dude was fake. Jesus was the Word (with capital W) of God. Few people realise what that means. Jesus was never crucified and it's fine for Christians to believe he did as that is what was witnessed.

    I do know where you're coming from though and it's actually good to critically think like that. I've been there and done that.

    We all know you can't prove something doesn't exist.

    Can you prove the life forms through natural processes?
    Can you prove that mass forms simply under the action of gravity?
    Can you prove how one species is fertile with another?
    Can you prove that old age can be eradicated?
    Can you prove that something can come from nothing?

    If so go and do it. Many have tried and still failed. It's classed as something that scientists will figure out later on. Is there anything that scientists can't figure out later on? Theoretically there isn't. Realistically they never will based on what we know so far. I'm just being realistic. You are more hopeful. That's you. You have maybe 30/40 years to find out unless you are pinning your hopes on scientists finding a out how to prevent death by natural causes. Maybe you think they will be able to download your brain or something?

    Like I said before. Do the research yourself you owe that to yourself at least.
    My nasheed. Sing it with me!
  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #439 - August 14, 2015, 11:48 PM
    I thought the flight of the Buraq was a miracle? Not so? Why does CallMeTed keep claiming that there were no miracles for the Prophet?
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #440 - August 15, 2015, 12:14 AM
    Well, the Buraq wasn't in the Quran, so ted might say it didn't exist. The supposed splitting of the moon, though...
  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #441 - August 15, 2015, 12:18 AM
    But it is mentioned in Quran. In the night journey surah. What does he think that refers to?
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #442 - August 15, 2015, 12:20 AM
    Well that surah is pretty cryptic and disjointed without the explanations found in the ahadith. The first verse is incredibly poorly constructed, jumping perspectives three times in a single sentence.
  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #443 - August 15, 2015, 12:23 AM
    Glorified be He Who carried His servant by night from the Inviolable Place of Worship to the Far distant place of worship the neighbourhood whereof We have blessed, that We might show him of Our tokens! Lo! He, only He, is the Hearer, the Seer.
  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #444 - August 15, 2015, 12:26 AM
    Well, then if it doesn't mean what I always thought it meant, what does CallMeTed think it means?
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #445 - August 15, 2015, 05:32 AM
    Quote from: CallMeTed on August 14, 2015, 11:12 PM
    Realistically they never will based on what we know so far. I'm just being realistic. You are more hopeful. That's you.


    The Dunning Kruger effect is in full force again.
  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #446 - August 15, 2015, 08:30 AM
    Quote
    Quote from: bogart on August 14, 2015, 06:08 PM
    .............. You are a prime example of the dunning–kruger effect................

     
    Quote from: bogart on August 14, 2015, 06:26 PM
    ........ The dunning–kruger effect is inflicting your again.............

     
    Quote from: Helaine on August 15, 2015, 05:32 AM
    The Dunning Kruger effect is in full force again.



    Guys.. guys.. our Ted is NOT that bad.. Ted is NOT that stupid.,  , It is true   "dunning–kruger  effect "  does affect some  very very stupid people" of  the human society  but often they are NOT religiously minded intelligent folks .  I consider Ted as religious minded smart guy

    At the best  we can say our Ted could potentially  brain wash  some stupid people   who are uneducated and foolish .. and  have that "dunning–kruger affect"    mentality.

    A perfect example  from Islam is some 15 to 30 year old  brainless young fellow  ...."that Suicide bomber"......  who believe in some 62 houris/virgins in some  allah heaven after they die and kill some 100s of  innocent folks for the sake of their allah/their leader/their preacher.  

    Anyways just for the sake of readers,  let me add few words/link on that "dunning–kruger effect" which is surprisingly published as recent as 1990s  in some Psychology journal..   Well let us add some links   here.. It is indeed very important human Psychology experiment  that is  surprisingly not yet discovered in other animal species or even in Primates .. OUR NEAREST COUSINS..

    Quote
       The phenomenon was first tested in a series of experiments published in 1999 by David Dunning and Justin Kruger of the Department of Psychology, Cornell University. The study was inspired by the case of McArthur Wheeler, a man who robbed two banks after covering his face with lemon juice in the mistaken belief that, because lemon juice is usable as invisible ink, it would prevent his face from being recorded on surveillance cameras.


     Cheesy  do you guys think our TED IS THAT BAD??  As bad as that  McArthur Wheeler??  Cheesy  

    I don't think so.... I think,  any one who read this forum and interacts guys  like you   is much much smarter than that McArthur Wheeler.. but Our Ted may get  effected  by some of these human psychological problems such as
    Quote
    Curse of knowledge
    Four stages of competence
    Hanlon's razor
    Impostor syndrome
    Not even wrong
    Overconfidence effect
    Self-efficacy
    Self-serving bias
    Superiority complex

    And they are all from our Ted's favorite  website .. "The  Wikipedia".,  

    Hellloooooooo   Ted.. correct me if I am wrong...  and my good wishes to you.

    *************************************************

    1). Dunning–Kruger effect  by Justin Kruger and David Dunning, Department of Psychology, Cornell. University. 1999 Original PDF paper..

    2). The Dunning-Kruger Effect and SIUC University’s Aviation Students   ((Imagine those RASCALS flying commercial airlines ...))

    3). Incompetent and Unaware of It
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #447 - August 15, 2015, 09:12 AM
    Hmm   http://kriswager.blogspot.com/2009/05/dunning-kruger-effect.html   that blog is a good one on that "dunning–kruger effect.."

    Quote
    The Dunning-Kruger effect
    We've all experienced situations where we've run into people who seemed unable to estimate their own (lack of) skills in a particular area. It might be as extreme as the Creationist who tries to explain science to the scientist, but it can also be people in your day to day life, who overestimates their own skills in one thing or another.

    There are two explanations for this. One is the "above-average syndrome", the other is the Dunning-Kruger effect.

    The "above-average syndrome" is, simply put, that the average person in a given field will believe themselves to be above average. In other words, more people believe themselves above average than really are. Obviously, only 50% can be above average, but there are perhaps 80% who believes they are...


     Cheesy  So could we say our Ted is getting affected by that The "above-average syndrome"  Cheesy Cheesy 

    Ted.. Ted .. I am just kidding
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #448 - August 15, 2015, 11:05 AM
    Quote from: yeezevee on August 15, 2015, 08:30 AM
     

    Guys.. guys.. our Ted is NOT that bad.. Ted is NOT that stupid.,  , It is true   "dunning–kruger  effect "  does affect some  very very stupid people" of  the human society  but often they are NOT religiously minded intelligent folks .  I consider Ted as religious minded smart guy 


    Never said he was stupid. My point was clearly that he lacked an education in evolution and biology yet claims he can refute it. He was discussing a topic he had next to no education in. He would be classified under unskilled

    Quote
    At the best  we can say our Ted could potentially  brain wash  some stupid people   who are uneducated and foolish .. and  have that "dunning–kruger affect"    mentality.


    I think he was the one brainwashed but not that he is stupid.

    Quote
    A perfect example  from Islam is some 15 to 30 year old  brainless young fellow  ...."that Suicide bomber"......  who believe in some 62 houris/virgins in some  allah heaven after they die and kill some 100s of  innocent folks for the sake of their allah/their leader/their preacher.  

    Anyways just for the sake of readers,  let me add few words/link on that "dunning–kruger effect" which is surprisingly published as recent as 1990s  in some Psychology journal..   Well let us add some links   here.. It is indeed very important human Psychology experiment  that is  surprisingly not yet discovered in other animal species or even in Primates .. OUR NEAREST COUSINS..

     Cheesy  do you guys think our TED IS THAT BAD??  As bad as that  McArthur Wheeler??  Cheesy  


    He is not violent but spreading ignorance based on one's own ignorance of the very topic they choose to discuss is not helpful.

  • Ringside: Quod Sum Eris vs CallMeTed - Is there scientific evidence that proves
     Reply #449 - August 15, 2015, 02:06 PM
    Quote from: bogart on August 15, 2015, 11:05 AM
    Never said he was stupid. My point was clearly that he lacked an education in evolution and biology yet claims he can refute it. 


    No no.. bogart  no one said Ted is stupid neither I said "you said he is stupid". What all I was doing was writing something on that "dunning–kruger effect" that you guys mentioned in your posts..

    And I did say that fellow  McArthur Wheeler is a stupid guy and I take that from  that published example  of that "dunning/kruger article"  on  McArthur Wheeler
    Quote
    The study was inspired by the case of McArthur Wheeler, a man who robbed two banks after covering his face with lemon juice in the mistaken belief that, because lemon juice is usable as invisible ink, it would prevent his face from being recorded on surveillance cameras.


    And that is the reason that stupid word is there in my posts...bogart.. But is i say no one who reads this forum is as stupid as that guy McArthur Wheeler
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
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