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 Topic: The Red Devil?

 (Read 7257 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • The Red Devil?
     OP - August 19, 2015, 03:46 PM

    So, in all likelihood, the Labour Party is going back to its red roots, under the stewardship of a rather angry man from Islington.

    In my twenties I would have been delighted and galvanised at the prospect of having someone who cares, an ordinary man, a leftist, leading the only mainstream party that had any realistic chance of making a positive change for those who often get overlooked.  But now, in my thirties, I am altogether more conformed towards living within, and even being a proud cog within, the system that I once hated. Perhaps because of this, I feel that I have to agree with those who think that Corbyn's election is bad news for Labour. Although the electorate may be intrigued by him and his politics and his voodoo economics, I fear they will never trust him with a general election victory.  Effectively, in my opinion, this means that by electing Corbyn as leader, Labour is in fact resigning itself to at least five more years of opposition, to add to the hard-fought five years that Ed Miliband secured recently.

    Any thoughts on this? Are you more positive about Corbyn? If so, take me with you because I don't want to live here anymore.

    Hi
  • The Red Devil?
     Reply #1 - August 19, 2015, 05:22 PM

    Paul Mason on Corbyn's economics. I've no idea how this would work out.
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vKv48n4MzII&feature=youtu.be
  • The Red Devil?
     Reply #2 - August 19, 2015, 07:05 PM

    I wouldn't take the wilder parts of Corbyn's manifesto too seriously.  If he wins he will have to make some running to stop his party from splitting, which means a compromise with the NuLabour MPs.  Between Corbyn and the people he will have to compromise with, the Labour party will end up pulled back to the left where they should be, but not as far left as Corbyn and many of his supporters would like.

    Or you could carry on with the situation where  Labour is being reduced to Tory Lite and no real opposition exists.   Clement Attlee would be ashamed of the modern Labour party.  Attlee took over a bankrupt country in 1945 and built a social welfare system and the NHS from the rubble.   They also gave India her independence and welcomed in immigrants from all over the commonwealth to make their home in the UK.

    The current Labour party is in a country which is the fifth richest in the world, and opposing a Tory party more right wing than any of Thatcher's governments, and they abstained on the welfare bill because they didn't have it in them to oppose austerity!!  They have failed to nail Cameron's testicles to the wall for what he did in Libya, failed to speak up about the spiteful Tory campaigns against immigrants, benefit claimants, the disabled.  They engaged in tactical voting pacts with Tories in Scotland to try and keep the SNP out, (for which they will probably never be forgiven by the Scots), stood by silently while the Tories encroached on civil liberties in the name of anti-terrorism, and have clearly no clue what they're talking about when it comes to policies on tax evasion and corporation tax.  Basically they're useless as an opposition in their current form.  You might as well have Corbyn as Labour leader because even if he is unelectable as Prime Minister,  all  his opponents are too, and at least he would make a strong opposition leader.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • The Red Devil?
     Reply #3 - August 19, 2015, 07:12 PM

    met the dude recently when he came to newcastle, i liked him at first but then i had some weird gut instinct kick in telling me that he was somewhat full of shit, (i interviewed him).
    he's pretty much like any other politician i guess.

    "those who will, and then those who actually will"
  • The Red Devil?
     Reply #4 - August 19, 2015, 07:47 PM

    New Labour must be punished, and what better way for them to be punished by showing them up for the opportunistic, contemptible buffoons they really are?

    More seriously, Corbyn strikes me as a throwback to an earlier age of consensus politics. The sort of politics people would point back to in A-Level Politics classes in the mid-90s as 'consensus politics'. Of course, there's also been a post-Thatcher consensus (we didn't really know it until 1997); this latter consensus has since been repudiated so thoroughly, that it'd probably do British politics a world of good to have an alternative that didn't involve spouting neo-liberal platitudes in the hope that The Market will save us all, and bugger any underlying principle (which seems to have been the New Labour default).

    /rant
  • The Red Devil?
     Reply #5 - August 20, 2015, 09:09 AM

    On further reflection, this song is now more apposite than it's ever been:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgMl9qBTBq0
  • The Red Devil?
     Reply #6 - August 20, 2015, 09:58 AM

    At last, a Man Utd legends thread...


    thought I.
  • The Red Devil?
     Reply #7 - August 20, 2015, 04:05 PM

    Paul Mason on Corbyn's economics. I've no idea how this would work out.
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vKv48n4MzII&feature=youtu.be

    I've read up more on QE, for the sake of investment, since writing my OP and watching this. It seems it isn't as crazy as I first thought.  But the consensus amongst economists is that it is a blunt, unpredictable tool if it is to be used in the sense that Corbyn is proposing. For that reason, it should be reserved only for emergencies, and only then when conventional monetary policy cannot be used.

    Whether it would work or not is irrelevant to me. This policy strikes me as something that could be easily used for scare-mongering purposes by the Tory press nearer to elections. And that just about sums up Corbyn for me. He will happily supply the ammunition, that will be used to kill us all when the time is right.

    Hi
  • The Red Devil?
     Reply #8 - August 20, 2015, 04:22 PM

    I wouldn't take the wilder parts of Corbyn's manifesto too seriously.  If he wins he will have to make some running to stop his party from splitting, which means a compromise with the NuLabour MPs.  Between Corbyn and the people he will have to compromise with, the Labour party will end up pulled back to the left where they should be, but not as far left as Corbyn and many of his supporters would like.

    Or you could carry on with the situation where  Labour is being reduced to Tory Lite and no real opposition exists.   Clement Attlee would be ashamed of the modern Labour party.  Attlee took over a bankrupt country in 1945 and built a social welfare system and the NHS from the rubble.   They also gave India her independence and welcomed in immigrants from all over the commonwealth to make their home in the UK.

    The current Labour party is in a country which is the fifth richest in the world, and opposing a Tory party more right wing than any of Thatcher's governments, and they abstained on the welfare bill because they didn't have it in them to oppose austerity!!  They have failed to nail Cameron's testicles to the wall for what he did in Libya, failed to speak up about the spiteful Tory campaigns against immigrants, benefit claimants, the disabled.  They engaged in tactical voting pacts with Tories in Scotland to try and keep the SNP out, (for which they will probably never be forgiven by the Scots), stood by silently while the Tories encroached on civil liberties in the name of anti-terrorism, and have clearly no clue what they're talking about when it comes to policies on tax evasion and corporation tax.  Basically they're useless as an opposition in their current form.  You might as well have Corbyn as Labour leader because even if he is unelectable as Prime Minister,  all  his opponents are too, and at least he would make a strong opposition leader.


    I agree with almost everything you say, speedy cat.

    Labour are failing in every department, seem conflicted, and are willing to say anything Tory-like in order to win back voters who no longer trust them. And I agree that the current batch that are standing don't have any real chance of winning anything that counts. But what I'm not so sure about is that Labour should just give up, and back someone who will turn the party into what most likely be the best protest movement in the world. If any of the others have an even slightly better chance of actually winning power for all in five years, and that includes the left as well as the Tory-lite, then Labour should go after that faint hope. The time to give up is not now. Labour should give itself the best chance of winning power, however slim that is, and then once in, set itself to work on implementing some good policies in amongst all the Tory drivel that necessitates an election victory these days.

    Hi
  • The Red Devil?
     Reply #9 - August 20, 2015, 04:32 PM

    met the dude recently when he came to newcastle, i liked him at first but then i had some weird gut instinct kick in telling me that he was somewhat full of shit, (i interviewed him).
    he's pretty much like any other politician i guess.


    Post a link to the interview?

    Hi
  • The Red Devil?
     Reply #10 - August 20, 2015, 04:38 PM

    New Labour must be punished, and what better way for them to be punished by showing them up for the opportunistic, contemptible buffoons they really are?

    More seriously, Corbyn strikes me as a throwback to an earlier age of consensus politics. The sort of politics people would point back to in A-Level Politics classes in the mid-90s as 'consensus politics'. Of course, there's also been a post-Thatcher consensus (we didn't really know it until 1997); this latter consensus has since been repudiated so thoroughly, that it'd probably do British politics a world of good to have an alternative that didn't involve spouting neo-liberal platitudes in the hope that The Market will save us all, and bugger any underlying principle (which seems to have been the New Labour default).

    /rant


    He strikes me as a throwback to something that was unfashionable even in it's pomp.

    On a more serious note, you still make me laugh Toor. And that's not being said in an insulting or insinuatory way. You just make me laugh. Don't make me laugh. Even when you're being serious, you make me laugh. Stop it. Just stop it right now.

    Hi
  • The Red Devil?
     Reply #11 - August 20, 2015, 04:39 PM

    At last, a Man Utd legends thread...

    thought I.


    Never. It'd be a very short thread for a start.

    Hi
  • The Red Devil?
     Reply #12 - August 20, 2015, 08:59 PM

    George Best.

    There, I finished that thread.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • The Red Devil?
     Reply #13 - August 20, 2015, 09:08 PM

    Although the electorate may be intrigued by him and his politics and his voodoo economics, I fear they will never trust him with a general election victory.  Effectively, in my opinion, this means that by electing Corbyn as leader, Labour is in fact resigning itself to at least five more years of opposition...

    Why are you so sure that Corbyn would bring worse electoral results than anyone else?
  • The Red Devil?
     Reply #14 - August 20, 2015, 09:36 PM

    I sometimes feel I am going in reverse to everyone else as I get older - getting more angry and engaged with politics and less complacent to be a cog. I think I am growing up to be quite a lefty Grin

    For anyone interested in finding out more about People's QE (or Green QE as it was originally called) I would suggest perusing the most excellent blog of a man called Richard Murphy, if you haven't already heard about him - http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/

    He was one of the people who came up with the idea and I was fortunate to hear him speak in Scotland soon after the general election. His words really resonate with me.

    It is fairly amusing (and a bit depressing) at all the suspicion and cynicism towards People's QE among politicians, business, media and general public ...... and barely any acknowledgement and mainstream critical analysis of conventional QE where billions have been used to bail out banks, and all it seems to have achieved is wealth flowing upward and the (in)famous "trickle down economics" results in the rest of us being pissed on.

  • The Red Devil?
     Reply #15 - August 20, 2015, 09:36 PM

    George Best.

    There, I finished that thread.

    I hate Man United. But I would have to make an exception for George Best. I could devote an entire thread to him in fact. Persistent, wavy, athletic, unpredictable, inspired, majestic, tenacious, charismatic and brilliant. And that just describes him in a pub, making his way through the crowd to get a drink.

    On the pitch, he honestly was a godlike genius. You see few people like it. He was touched by God in the same way that Picasso and Michelangelo and Yeats were before him. Irreplaceable. May he rest in peace.

    Hi
  • The Red Devil?
     Reply #16 - August 20, 2015, 09:45 PM

    He strikes me as a throwback to something that was unfashionable even in it's pomp.


    I wouldn't be so sure that it doesn't stand a chance of being fashionable now, though. A serious anti-austerity stance in a mainstream party would, I suspect, be genuinely popular. Add this to the prospect of someone actually doing the unthinkable and apologising for the party lying Britain into Gulf War mkII, and I can see Labour becoming perceived as more than a party run by and for the benefit of bloodless scumbags.

    But then I'm an optimist. And if experience has taught me anything, most optimism is misguided, especially the best-informed kind.
  • The Red Devil?
     Reply #17 - August 20, 2015, 09:49 PM

    Why are you so sure that Corbyn would bring worse electoral results than anyone else?

    Like it or not, our country seems to have grown into one where the middle-England that decides elections nowadays is a slightly selfish, slightly bigoted, slightly suspicious, and an incredibly worried middle-England that does not want to risk the wealth that it has gathered, usually at the toil of others. It does not trust the left. And even when it's heart and conscience does, it's mind is won over by the overwhelmingly Tory media that indoctrinates anyone stupid or susceptible enough to be considered a swing voter.

    Anyone with a even whiff of leftism in them needs to be one hell of a charismatic fucker to pull that ridiculous crowd into voting for him. And Corbyn's is not a mere whiff: he reeks of the shit. He bathes in the shit. He has it bottled in his aftershave. He has no chance mate, in my opinion. He will take us even further down.

    Hi
  • The Red Devil?
     Reply #18 - August 20, 2015, 09:54 PM

    I sometimes feel I am going in reverse to everyone else as I get older - getting more angry and engaged with politics and less complacent to be a cog. I think I am growing up to be quite a lefty Grin

    For anyone interested in finding out more about People's QE (or Green QE as it was originally called) I would suggest perusing the most excellent blog of a man called Richard Murphy, if you haven't already heard about him - http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/

    He was one of the people who came up with the idea and I was fortunate to hear him speak in Scotland soon after the general election. His words really resonate with me.

    It is fairly amusing (and a bit depressing) at all the suspicion and cynicism towards People's QE among politicians, business, media and general public ...... and barely any acknowledgement and mainstream critical analysis of conventional QE where billions have been used to bail out banks, and all it seems to have achieved is wealth flowing upward and the (in)famous "trickle down economics" results in the rest of us being pissed on.


    I think you are right Madam Sir. But it's not me that needs convincing. It's the people that are spoon-fed their economics by the Mail, and by the Telegraph and the Sun and the Star and the Express, and by Sky, that you need to convince. That, I fear, is out of our control.

    Hi
  • The Red Devil?
     Reply #19 - August 20, 2015, 10:00 PM

    I wouldn't be so sure that it doesn't stand a chance of being fashionable now, though. A serious anti-austerity stance in a mainstream party would, I suspect, be genuinely popular. Add this to the prospect of someone actually doing the unthinkable and apologising for the party lying Britain into Gulf War mkII, and I can see Labour becoming perceived as more than a party run by and for the benefit of bloodless scumbags.

    But then I'm an optimist. And if experience has taught me anything, most optimism is misguided, especially the best-informed kind.

    Fashionable? Quite possibly. Passing fad? Most definitely.

    He'd certainly get the trendy vote. I fear though he will end up breaking my heart even more than it has already been broken recently. It sounds to me like you can see that also, but have decided not to look properly just yet.

    Hi
  • The Red Devil?
     Reply #20 - August 20, 2015, 10:10 PM

    Fashion is by definition passing, so no quibbles there.

    He might, or he might not break people's hearts. Either way, I actually do want Labour to atone in some way for what it has become over the past decade and a half - a party so dedicated to seeking the aspiring middle that it's collectively aspired itself up its own arse - and to my mind, a Corbyn victory represents a crucial step in its future credibility. Perhaps not in his leadership, but whatever.

    I want New Labour's collective faces ground into the dust, but I won't get that. But that brand needs to become massively toxic, and sharpish, if Labour is to try to reconnect to the people it's lost.
  • The Red Devil?
     Reply #21 - August 20, 2015, 10:29 PM

    I get what you're saying, and my heart even agrees with you.

    But I am pragmatic enough to keep my sights on victory, at any cost. Once in, there is a possibility of influencing and infiltrating the Tories on our front bench into doing just that little bit of good. We can offer no help whatsoever from the outside. Being a strong Opposition in my eyes is as much use to the people, as valium is to the comatose. You need to take power before you can help anyone.

    Hi
  • The Red Devil?
     Reply #22 - August 20, 2015, 11:30 PM

    I would have to make an exception for George Best. I could devote an entire thread to him in fact. Persistent, wavy, athletic, unpredictable, inspired, majestic, tenacious, charismatic and brilliant. And that just describes him in a pub, making his way through the crowd to get a drink.

    I saw him in the pub several times, and he wasn't, sadly, like that.

    Dazed, lonely, sitting in the corner.
  • The Red Devil?
     Reply #23 - August 24, 2015, 05:13 AM

     The history of the Labour party throughout my lifetime (actually , probably since it was founded) has been of a struggle between people trying to implement a modest form of socialism and 'realists' , or as they call themselves now 'modernisers' who  insisted the public would never go for it.
     New Labour took this to new depths , doing absolutely nothing to reverse the worst aspects of Thatcherism - privatisation , the selling of off council houses , anti- union laws , etc , and unbelievably , sealing the fate of the NHS with their disgraceful PFI and Foundation Trust schemes.
     That is why they were obliterated in Scotland and failed to inspire the support they needed elsewhere.
      Personally I'm not completely sure about Corbyn , I like a lot of what he says and I think he's been a decent MP but I have misgivings about his attitude to Islamic extremists .  But I think much of the campaign against him is quite hysterical.  In particular the nonsense about him being 'caught' having meetings with union leaders. The Labour Party grew out of the union movement , it's about time we had a leader who remembers that . And the Burnham camp's bleating about alleged tory infiltrators is pathetic
      It's a sign of how well he's doing that this rubbish is being trotted out , which I find cheering in a way , but this stuff has a way of becoming a self fulfilling prophecy . The media played a big part in defeating Ed Milliband , and before him Michael Foot.
  • The Red Devil?
     Reply #24 - August 26, 2015, 10:00 PM

    Agree with you mate. And don't forget Kinnock from that list.

    Examples of the ammunition that Corbyn will provide the Tory press constantly:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/Jeremy_Corbyn/11820156/Jeremy-Corbyn-will-sack-Bank-of-England-governor-if-they-refuse-to-print-free-money.html

    http://www.itv.com/news/2015-08-26/women-only-train-carriages-at-night-to-prevent-assaults-proposed-by-corbyn/

    They will have an encyclopedia of this quotable stuff to turn to by the time the next General Election comes. It will be all too easy for them. Ultimately, it will be the public services, the downtrodden, the ones that don't have much chance in life from the onset, the public sector workers and the unions that will suffer for longer. In my opinion, his good intentions will hurt exactly those most that he is so desperate to help. I can see it now. And I hate having to wait and watch this slow and destructive train crash run it's course.

    Hi
  • The Red Devil?
     Reply #25 - August 26, 2015, 10:29 PM

    Musivore, you do know that's going to happen whoever wins the leadership election?  Your press is insanely right wing, (and I include the oh so liberal Guardian and the supposedly impartial BBC).  You'd be better off giving them Corbyn to chew on for four years or so, and then switching leaders just before the next election so they don't have time to work up too much of a hate campaign.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • The Red Devil?
     Reply #26 - August 26, 2015, 10:39 PM

    But they are clever enough to let him keep going till 2020.  Plus he is appealing enough perhaps to get validation in inconsequential elections till the one that counts.

    Hi
  • The Red Devil?
     Reply #27 - August 26, 2015, 10:42 PM

    Then it doesn't make any difference, because no matter who wins the Labour leadership campaign, they will be demonised beyond recognition by 2020

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • The Red Devil?
     Reply #28 - August 26, 2015, 10:45 PM

    We can't just give up though Cheetah

    Hi
  • The Red Devil?
     Reply #29 - August 26, 2015, 10:57 PM

    Then I suggest you vote for Corbyn, not because I'm under any illusions that he's the picture perfect candidate, but because he's the only hope for any credible opposition.  The rest of them are too right wing to win back Scotland and too left wing to avoid being demonised by the media.  They're trying to be middle of the road, and like anyone who sits in the middle of the road they will get run over.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
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