I really appreciate input from you Wahhabist. I think it's very unique because you are from Saudia, the land of pure Islam.
I agree with HM and I like the fact that pure Islam simply can't survive without billions of petrodollar supporting the dysfunctional society they create.
Therefore, I assert that those Muslims for whom Islam isn’t an everyday lived reality (as mentioned in [6:162]) are not very many, especially past teenage and as people get on in years. They are not very many because it is not consistent to put up with the physically tasking prayer and fasting, financially tasking Zakat and doubly tasking Hajj. This is with conclusive reference to the five pillars, without any dietary and sexual limitations Islam places on its subscriber.
I fully agree that honest muslims would be conflicted with Quran's barbarity (at the very least).
But I disagree with this... I think our background is different and that's why our opinion is different. I live in Indonesia with people who have very mild interpretation of Islam (maybe because we don't speak Arabic, hah!).
I agree, if they start to get bored/tired with the routine, they will probably seek to strengthen their iman because they feel guilty of being too lazy to pray. Contradiction and doubt starts... then the usual "Satan's whispers" reasoning come and go.
I think most muslims are not always 100% practicing muslim. In reality (not in Quran) most people lapse and relapse through being very faithful and loosely failthful. They still act the same though.
Wahabbist, I think that your experience and characteristics are unique. Very little muslims would be willing to go your direction - questioning Islam or going full literalist when they are conflicted. Most muslims will just go "Mashallah, what am I thinking. I will go listen to the Sheikh next door tomorrow so I can be convinced again." Not everyone is very "honest" (in Islamic sense). It's ironic but by Islamic definition - I think most muslims (not in Saudi I guess) are munafiq. You said before, that losing Islam made you feel depressed for some time - this is why I think that most muslims can't just LOSE Islam OR interpret Islam violently. Muslims have conscience and guilt and their feelings will prevent them from adopting literalist views.
Although this is only true if there is no fuel for the literalist view itself. If the government is like Saudi I guess it's different.
People grow acute islamic conscience, become more active participants in it and become stricter adherent to their Islam for a variety of reasons and at various stages of their lives to often cope with different life experiences and emotions. And I do not disagree with what sociologists say about women, on humanity level, being more prone to be religious because they have more injustices to cope with, and equally they, as a kind, are less likely to commit suicide. But I'm interested in what could happen to any passive Muslim suddenly becoming 'very practising' in what they wear, how they conduct themselves socially and more importantly, in the all seeing voyeuristic eye of Allah.
In my experience, it is these Muslims if they were honest and have become thorough in finding out what Allah traditionally wants — through his book and prophet — that either end up becoming murtadoon or Jihadi Johns (I appreciate the irony of the former becoming the very opposite of what they'd really and earnestly wanted to achieve and I also appreciate that through their acute Imaan that 'significant minority' can be said about Islamist extremists).
I think that most muslims are happy with watered-down Islam
They don't like feeling torn apart. They don't like having to choose between Islam or their conscience. So they just choose Islam that fits their narrative... Yes they are not honest but I don't think most people are.
This is our core difference : From your experience in Saudi, honest muslims will inevitably adopt literal Islam, because it's in the Quran.
For me, my experience in Indonesia - people can be satisfied with watered-down Islam. Even the most devout. People in here genuinely believe that Islam can only mean good. The bad parts are conveniently forgotten. Are they as honest as the muslims who speak Arabic? Probably not, but that's reality... people are not honest. (The real honest ones go full murtad or full jihadist... or create their own sect with their own interpretation of Quran)
I'm sorry to agree in this regard with the view that any Muslim anywhere in the world might be susceptible to becoming an extremist once they sought more based on knowledge, more authentic and earnest form of Islam on the way and guidance of the Salaf.
I agree, and that's why I think bloody conflict is unavoidable.
For every peaceful muslim community there will be few Jihadist type - if not the psycopaths it's the people who want to feel better than others by being actual honest muslims.
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I don't think there is right or wrong in this argument really. I think it can go any direction.
Cross fingers!
Topic: Can Islam be Reformed?