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 Topic: I need to see the big picture.

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  • I need to see the big picture.
     Reply #30 - September 12, 2015, 04:57 PM

    A lot of muslims do take it that way. Times of war and all.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • I need to see the big picture.
     Reply #31 - September 12, 2015, 08:08 PM

    Quote
    So  dear Varin first of all my greetings and good wishes to you.. I agree that there are problems in Islam and in Quran. but don't you think such problems exist  other religions  and religious scriptures?  Suppose Muslim folks don't take such verses as Verses from Allah for all times but were restricted to the initial ties of Islam..


    Of course such problems do exist. I'm generally anti-religion completely, thoroughly as in most cases it makes you satisfied with not understanding the world.

    When it comes to Wahhabi Islam, the current situation it is bit different because it is a real threat, it is violent, it has huge financial backing and it is supported. Even though Quran unlike Bible is seen as a word of Allah - you still get certain groups of people interpreting it in their own way and each of them are saying that they are the TRUE ISLAM.  


    Quote
    If Muslim folks agree with that, Would that solve the problems between Muslims and Non-Muslim folks like you .  Would you be happy if Muslim folks say to you "Quran is NOT really word of Allah/god for all times but it was revealed(ALLEGEDLY)  for the time during Prophet's times?? "


    As long as it is officially viewed as true official word of god, there will be fundamentalism and people who believe in those "virus verses" literally. But what is actually "official" in religion? Does Pope influence all Christians? Nope.

    The whole missionary bit is an issue, believing that Islam should conquer the world.
    "If you are sitting at the table drinking tea, and I see someone spitting in your tea, I have an OBLIGATION to tell you that" - that's what I've been recently told when I asked my partner's stepdad "why is there so much pressure on converting other people". This is one of the problems, the feeling of superiority because of one's superstition.
  • I need to see the big picture.
     Reply #32 - September 12, 2015, 11:05 PM

    Hmm, what would you do if England was at civil war, you didn't want to fight and you wanted to escape it? Go to Ireland, Scotland, France or aim for America? This is what a lot of people feel dubious about, especially in the east of Europe which is not as rich as western countries.

    Personally? The obvious choice for me would be Greece as I've lived there before and I've got personal and family connections there. For other people where I'm from (northern former mill town) I expect it would depend on their backgrounds. Ireland might make sense for people from Irish families. Pakistan might make sense for a lot more people. Maybe Poland or the Ukraine for people whose families came here as refugees during and after the war, though I'm not sure how much connection the younger ones would really have now. Otherwise I expect it would depend on whatever connections people had. There are plenty of people with family or friends in America, Australia, Canada or the Costa del Sol. There's no obvious logic in choosing the country next door unless you're being prevented from flying (Syrians aren't flying to the EU because carrier liability means they're not being allowed to board the planes).
    Quote
    If you are young and able, why don't you fight for your country?

    It's a civil war. What does it mean to be fighting for your country? In the Syrian context does that mean fighting for Assad? for an Islamist militia? for IS? I could see why people may choose to fight with a secular FSA militia or with the YPG. I could also see why they may choose not to. In the case of Aylan Kurdi's father I guess he chose to act in what he believed were the best interests of family by taking them to Europe. Now they're gone he has said he will stay in Kobani and fight IS. Both choices are understandable.
    Quote
    Why don't you go to the first place that is not at war?

    Because you might face years living in a refugee camp, without any prospects of being able to work legally?
    Quote
    Why can't you appreciate that you are now safe, why demand more and go for the countries with the best welfare? Why throw away given food and water?

    That's kind of assuming that the food is there and that they'd be allowed to stay in the longer term anyway. Consider the Turkish talk of creating a 'safe zone' for refugees within Syria, which suggests they're considering moving them out of Turkey. As for the idea of a safe zone in a civil war, just think about Srebenica.
    Quote
    I think you can easily imagine someone, working 2 shifts for an equivalent of 1/3 of UK wages, thinking this way. I think your views depend highly on your personal situation you are in.
    In addition, Poland took a lot of Ukrainian refugees (300 000) who were issued work permits and immediately started work. They don't want welfare, they integrated really quickly and they don't demand anything. There is a lot of contrast between those two waves of imigration and that influences peoples views further.

    Why would Syrians be less likely to want to work than Ukrainians? The ones crossing to Greece at the moment tend to be from the educated middle classes. To me they actually look a lot like the young educated Greeks who are leaving for England or Germany because they can't find work in Greece. So far I'm fairly sure more Greek economic migrants than Syrian refugees have made the move to Northern Europe. This is an issue for Greece as it's losing a whole generation of young talented people but I've never seen any suggestion it's a problem for the countries they're going to. If Syrians refugees are allowed to work why should they pose any more of a problem?
  • I need to see the big picture.
     Reply #33 - September 13, 2015, 03:04 AM

    Zeca,

    Hmmm... You are right on all accounts here. I've done a lot of research since my post to which you replied and also learned a lot from this forum. I think the issue is that a lot of people who are observing the situation and are relatively detached emotionally from it (not affected, friends and family not affected) see this whole situation in a very one-dimensional way. I have to say I wasn't aware about a lot of things as well before I have faced a great deal of intelligent arguments in the last few days which I could research and cross reference.



  • I need to see the big picture.
     Reply #34 - September 14, 2015, 11:11 AM

    Personally? The obvious choice for me would be Greece as I've lived there before and I've got personal and family connections there. For other people where I'm from (northern former mill town) I expect it would depend on their backgrounds. Ireland might make sense for people from Irish families. Pakistan might make sense for a lot more people. Maybe Poland or the Ukraine for people whose families came here as refugees during and after the war, though I'm not sure how much connection the younger ones would really have now. Otherwise I expect it would depend on whatever connections people had. There are plenty of people with family or friends in America, Australia, Canada or the Costa del Sol. There's no obvious logic in choosing the country next door unless you're being prevented from flying (Syrians aren't flying to the EU because carrier liability means they're not being allowed to board the planes).It's a civil war. What does it mean to be fighting for your country? In the Syrian context does that mean fighting for Assad? for an Islamist militia? for IS? I could see why people may choose to fight with a secular FSA militia or with the YPG. I could also see why they may choose not to. In the case of Aylan Kurdi's father I guess he chose to act in what he believed were the best interests of family by taking them to Europe. Now they're gone he has said he will stay in Kobani and fight IS. Both choices are understandable.Because you might face years living in a refugee camp, without any prospects of being able to work legally?That's kind of assuming that the food is there and that they'd be allowed to stay in the longer term anyway. Consider the Turkish talk of creating a 'safe zone' for refugees within Syria, which suggests they're considering moving them out of Turkey. As for the idea of a safe zone in a civil war, just think about Srebenica.Why would Syrians be less likely to want to work than Ukrainians? The ones crossing to Greece at the moment tend to be from the educated middle classes. To me they actually look a lot like the young educated Greeks who are leaving for England or Germany because they can't find work in Greece. So far I'm fairly sure more Greek economic migrants than Syrian refugees have made the move to Northern Europe. This is an issue for Greece as it's losing a whole generation of young talented people but I've never seen any suggestion it's a problem for the countries they're going to. If Syrians refugees are allowed to work why should they pose any more of a problem?



    I disagree with your opinion. If Islamic State or whatever Islamist group will raise in UK and will be a civil war, it doesn't mean that men who are able to fight should fly just because it's a civil war. I strongly disagree with this. And I think it's plain obvious for Syrians too, that Islamic State and the other Islamist groups are the bad guys, and it's obvious especially for Kurds, Alawites and even the majority of Sunnis. Also I believe the term migrant is not inappropriate, even if practically they are refugees. They are refugees, but they are migrating from Syria neighbors to Europe for a better life. 

    I also begin to realize that EU politics to allow these migrants is turning out to be very stupid in now context and I think EU should patrol Turkish border and return refugees that land in Greece back to Turkey. At least the men. And the reasons I say this, are:

    - the vast majority are young men, who can be a fighting force against ISIS. Many of them are fleeing for being conscripted in the army. It's already a phenomenon. I heard Kurds in Syria have banned people to sell their homes, because they are afraid they will remain with no men to fight against ISIS. The Assad regime, the other big opponent of ISIS is struggling with men as well. In the last months Assad has lost a lot of ground. Men and women in PKK are fighting with ISIS and others are selling everything and go to Germany. How is that fair, when others are fighting ISIS to defend them as well? I'm sorry, but if Syrians don't fight ISIS, who will? Who will fight their war, and for their country? If they know that Europe are letting them come in, why should they fight?

    - if ISIS takes all Syria, what will happen with Kurds and Alawites. Selling and go to Europe? And then what about Lebanese people and Jordanians who will be next for ISIS?

    - Turkey is not Libya. I strongly refuse for EU to send refugees and migrants back in Libya, but Turkey is a safe state. Now, if Europe doesn't return Syrian refugees back to Turkey,  is setting a bad example for others too. I heard there are 500 millions refugees in the world. They could travel to Turkey and just cross into Greece and then Germany. Why should the men fight in Nigeria or Congo or Mali or Somalia or Afghanistan?
     
  • I need to see the big picture.
     Reply #35 - September 16, 2015, 06:23 PM

    Hi. I just thought I would give my view for you.

    1) ISIS is wrong. Full stop. Killing women and children isn't allowed in any war according the prophet. Many Muslims do agree with it being wrong. It's just the fact that not many Muslims actually know their religion really well.
    So the ones that do, they will condemn it. Also when it comes to sects, these things are already written that they will happen. It doesn't mean they're right. Remember there is only one right sect. That is just to say you are Muslim and that's it.

    2) In Islam, you can not lie unless you're going to be killed. That's the only reason. Which is a valid reason to be honest. As far as killing people who don't believe, show me any instance when this happened at the time of the prophet. They all lived hand in hand. The verse in the Qu'ran that states killing was to do with the people who kicked everyone out of their homes. Raped their women. Tortured their people. So they were given 3 months to leave peacefully or if they didn't they would be killed. No war is nice. But war happens. The fact that there's rules for it are good. I'm sure you must have heard the stories of when the Prophet went to preach to a city and they stoned him, mocked him and made him bleed. Whilst he was sitting outside the city an Angel came to him and asked him if he wanted them to destroy the city. He said no when most would have taken revenge. His neighbour used to throw rubbish at him and one day when she never he knocked on her door as he was worried. He saw she was dying and offered her some prayers. She asked why he would even want to see her after she treated him badly. She became Muslim. There's loads of things written on his compassion. There are times you just have to stand up for yourself in life. It's a last resort.

    3) Whoever spoke about imposing Islamic law in the entire world as Hijra is stupid. They have their own countries. The law is just for them. But to be honest there isn't really many or any Islamic countries that follow the law properly. It's all a bit corrupt at the moment. That's just how people are. Money corrupts them. So no. It's not about imposing it on everyone. They all used to live as neighbours. There wouldn't be any rules to how to treat to non believers if that was the case. But it says to treat them well and help them wherever you can.

    4) Refugee crisis is very sad. I'm glad Europe is helping them. Someone should. Other Islamic countries are too. But good acts aren't something that everyone should reveal as they are the ones done sincerely from
    The heart. Remember there's about 23 million people in Syria. Not all of them fled to Europe. Some of them stayed. Some of them went to other Islamic countries. Some stay behind. Some have died. Some have joined ISIS. But ask yourself why a real Muslim would bomb a mosque? Some of these things don't even make sense. You would think that if they were really Muslims, why didn't they help Palestine? There's a lot of things we don't know. But that doesn't give us the right to judge. All in all, ISIS is 100% wrong. If they're Muslim, they're not following Islam. But a lot of people say they're not. Who knows. We can safely say it's wrong though. They are wrong and they deserve the full force of the British and American army to eradicate them.

    Muslims who turn into terrorists don't know much about their religion and they're angry young and dumb. Easily manipulated into anything. Just like every person in a similar situation. They will all fall eventually. Hopefully sooner rather than later. Remember the majority are good people. Every religion, country, state and etc have bad apples. Just Islam is only brandished as the religion that's wrong. But they're just stupid people with stupid ideals. They're not Muslim. No true Muslim would say they are either.

    I hope I have given some insight. If I never, I apologise in advance. It's hard to type and remember everything. Feel free to PM me if you would like to discuss anything further. We should all be accepting of one another. Regardless of views and opinions. We shouldn't hurt anyone or their faiths. Everyone is entitled to follow whatever they want as long as they don't hurt people and I believe every religion tells you to be good to people, etc etc.
  • I need to see the big picture.
     Reply #36 - September 16, 2015, 10:12 PM

    Personally? The obvious choice for me would be Greece as I've lived there before and I've got personal and family connections there. For other people where I'm from (northern former mill town) I expect it would depend on their backgrounds. Ireland might make sense for people from Irish families. Pakistan might make sense for a lot more people. Maybe Poland or the Ukraine for people whose families came here as refugees during and after the war, though I'm not sure how much connection the younger ones would really have now. Otherwise I expect it would depend on whatever connections people had. There are plenty of people with family or friends in America, Australia, Canada or the Costa del Sol. There's no obvious logic in choosing the country next door unless you're being prevented from flying (Syrians aren't flying to the EU because carrier liability means they're not being allowed to board the planes).It's a civil war. What does it mean to be fighting for your country? In the Syrian context does that mean fighting for Assad? for an Islamist militia? for IS? I could see why people may choose to fight with a secular FSA militia or with the YPG. I could also see why they may choose not to. In the case of Aylan Kurdi's father I guess he chose to act in what he believed were the best interests of family by taking them to Europe. Now they're gone he has said he will stay in Kobani and fight IS. Both choices are understandable.Because you might face years living in a refugee camp, without any prospects of being able to work legally?That's kind of assuming that the food is there and that they'd be allowed to stay in the longer term anyway. Consider the Turkish talk of creating a 'safe zone' for refugees within Syria, which suggests they're considering moving them out of Turkey. As for the idea of a safe zone in a civil war, just think about Srebenica.Why would Syrians be less likely to want to work than Ukrainians? The ones crossing to Greece at the moment tend to be from the educated middle classes. To me they actually look a lot like the young educated Greeks who are leaving for England or Germany because they can't find work in Greece. So far I'm fairly sure more Greek economic migrants than Syrian refugees have made the move to Northern Europe. This is an issue for Greece as it's losing a whole generation of young talented people but I've never seen any suggestion it's a problem for the countries they're going to. If Syrians refugees are allowed to work why should they pose any more of a problem?


    Zoro, thanks for this thought-provoking post. You've reaffirmed some of my hazy thoughts in here, and it's good to see more of the good person you are, to add to the very good-sifter-of-news-and-research that I usually see..

    ^Reading back, the sentence above reads badly. Or perhaps it doesn't read badly, because it probably can't read at all.  In fact, I can't and shouldn't blame the sentence, I think it is me who is to blame because I wrote the bastard. All I do know for certain is that I didn't enjoy reading it in the slightest. And I also know that I am too tired to face the prospect of going back and changing it. Instead, I've chosen to write this bollocks paragraph as a way of an apology, and have thus somehow compounded the nonsense. And I won't read this one back even, because it will make me cry. I am sorry Zeca.

    Hi
  • I need to see the big picture.
     Reply #37 - September 16, 2015, 10:17 PM

    Zeca,

    Hmmm... You are right on all accounts here. I've done a lot of research since my post to which you replied and also learned a lot from this forum. I think the issue is that a lot of people who are observing the situation and are relatively detached emotionally from it (not affected, friends and family not affected) see this whole situation in a very one-dimensional way. I have to say I wasn't aware about a lot of things as well before I have faced a great deal of intelligent arguments in the last few days which I could research and cross reference.


    And credit to you Varin to be willing to listen to others and think about things. I would like to believe that I have that quality also, but I know I'd be lying if I did. In fact, I think what you have there is pretty rare, and I'd look after it, as well as yourself.

    Hi
  • I need to see the big picture.
     Reply #38 - September 16, 2015, 10:19 PM

    Hi. I just thought I would give my view for you.

    1) ISIS is wrong. Full stop. Killing women and children isn't allowed in any war according the prophet. Many Muslims do agree with it being wrong. It's just the fact that not many Muslims actually know their religion really well.
    So the ones that do, they will condemn it. Also when it comes to sects, these things are already written that they will happen. It doesn't mean they're right. Remember there is only one right sect. That is just to say you are Muslim and that's it.

    2) In Islam, you can not lie unless you're going to be killed. That's the only reason. Which is a valid reason to be honest. As far as killing people who don't believe, show me any instance when this happened at the time of the prophet. They all lived hand in hand. The verse in the Qu'ran that states killing was to do with the people who kicked everyone out of their homes. Raped their women. Tortured their people. So they were given 3 months to leave peacefully or if they didn't they would be killed. No war is nice. But war happens. The fact that there's rules for it are good. I'm sure you must have heard the stories of when the Prophet went to preach to a city and they stoned him, mocked him and made him bleed. Whilst he was sitting outside the city an Angel came to him and asked him if he wanted them to destroy the city. He said no when most would have taken revenge. His neighbour used to throw rubbish at him and one day when she never he knocked on her door as he was worried. He saw she was dying and offered her some prayers. She asked why he would even want to see her after she treated him badly. She became Muslim. There's loads of things written on his compassion. There are times you just have to stand up for yourself in life. It's a last resort.

    3) Whoever spoke about imposing Islamic law in the entire world as Hijra is stupid. They have their own countries. The law is just for them. But to be honest there isn't really many or any Islamic countries that follow the law properly. It's all a bit corrupt at the moment. That's just how people are. Money corrupts them. So no. It's not about imposing it on everyone. They all used to live as neighbours. There wouldn't be any rules to how to treat to non believers if that was the case. But it says to treat them well and help them wherever you can.

    4) Refugee crisis is very sad. I'm glad Europe is helping them. Someone should. Other Islamic countries are too. But good acts aren't something that everyone should reveal as they are the ones done sincerely from
    The heart. Remember there's about 23 million people in Syria. Not all of them fled to Europe. Some of them stayed. Some of them went to other Islamic countries. Some stay behind. Some have died. Some have joined ISIS. But ask yourself why a real Muslim would bomb a mosque? Some of these things don't even make sense. You would think that if they were really Muslims, why didn't they help Palestine? There's a lot of things we don't know. But that doesn't give us the right to judge. All in all, ISIS is 100% wrong. If they're Muslim, they're not following Islam. But a lot of people say they're not. Who knows. We can safely say it's wrong though. They are wrong and they deserve the full force of the British and American army to eradicate them.

    Muslims who turn into terrorists don't know much about their religion and they're angry young and dumb. Easily manipulated into anything. Just like every person in a similar situation. They will all fall eventually. Hopefully sooner rather than later. Remember the majority are good people. Every religion, country, state and etc have bad apples. Just Islam is only brandished as the religion that's wrong. But they're just stupid people with stupid ideals. They're not Muslim. No true Muslim would say they are either.

    I hope I have given some insight. If I never, I apologise in advance. It's hard to type and remember everything. Feel free to PM me if you would like to discuss anything further. We should all be accepting of one another. Regardless of views and opinions. We shouldn't hurt anyone or their faiths. Everyone is entitled to follow whatever they want as long as they don't hurt people and I believe every religion tells you to be good to people, etc etc.

    Aslammualauikum bro, welcome to our humble abode  Afro

    Hi
  • I need to see the big picture.
     Reply #39 - September 16, 2015, 10:21 PM

    Walaikum Salaam. Thanks. :-)
  • I need to see the big picture.
     Reply #40 - September 16, 2015, 10:33 PM

    If you're gonna stay, look after yourself. And if staying leads to your head hurting a little, or if it becomes overwhelming at any point, take a break and come back after a breather.

    Anyways, I should be sleeping, so I'm going away now to do something else that will keep me from bed.

    Hi
  • I need to see the big picture.
     Reply #41 - September 16, 2015, 10:34 PM

    Welcome to the forum tactikaL, have a rabbit!  bunny

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • I need to see the big picture.
     Reply #42 - September 17, 2015, 08:22 PM

    thanks for this thought-provoking post. You've reaffirmed some of my hazy thoughts in here, and it's good to see more of the good person you are, to add to the very good-sifter-of-news-and-research that I usually see..

    Thanks... I don't usually go for the long posts. I find it hard to get my thoughts down in writing and it takes me for ever. It's nice to know someone appreciates it when I actually make the effort.
  • I need to see the big picture.
     Reply #43 - September 18, 2015, 03:34 AM

    Not just musivore. Afro

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • I need to see the big picture.
     Reply #44 - September 20, 2015, 02:19 AM

    I second that. All your posts are much appreciated.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
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