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Theme Changer

 Topic: Heaven or hell

 (Read 7022 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Heaven or hell
     OP - November 01, 2015, 03:50 AM

    Hi Friends! Nice to meet you again! When I asked my Muslim friends about heaven and hell, they told me that a 'Muslim', irrespective of whether he drinks, takes drugs, rapes children, kills innocent people, will ultimately reaches heaven after a temporary torture in the hell and people who were innocent and good will go to hell permanently because they are not Muslims. But when I heard this, I was really offended because what I believe in my present religion is just opposite to this as it says that a person will reach Swarga (heaven) or Naraga (hell) only on the basis of his karma (his deeds and doings in the earth life) irrespective of whether he is an atheist or a polytheist. As I taught like this from my childhood days, I can't accept what my friends are saying and it created a battle within me. Please guide me my friends! Thanks for your valuable answers!
  • Heaven or hell
     Reply #1 - November 01, 2015, 06:21 AM

    What drew me to some forms of paganism years ago was pretty much that. The idea that people will be judged on who they are, not their beliefs, or lack of. I could never respect a religion which taught a believer could rape a baby and still gain eternal paradise while someone like Gandhi is tortured beyond imagination for all time, It's sick, perverse and evil.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Heaven or hell
     Reply #2 - November 01, 2015, 05:54 PM

    No, it's not that simple. Here is another view from an Islamic Scholar who worked for Google Answers:

    Will non-believers go to hell? - not necessarily.

    Quote
    Thank you for allowing me to answer your interesting (and difficult) question. As with many religions the fundamentalist view is often "yes", anyone outside of Islam for whatever reason is doomed to hell according to the hard-line interpretations of the Qu’ran. Other more conservative opinions (and yes, there are conservative Muslims) would argue this point. With that said, the most accurate and widely accepted answer is “not necessarily” and here’s why:

    According to Islamic teachings, any person who has been offered a true and complete understanding of Islam and knowingly rejects it, then dies without repenting, is destined for hell. You will note that the operative phrases here are “offered a true and complete understanding of Islam” and “knowingly rejects it”. This suggests that one must first HAVE an opportunity to embrace Islam and THEN, upon his or her own informed understanding, free will, and free choice refuse to embrace it before that person is at risk of condemnation on this basis.

    The Qu’ran says:
    [2:62] Surely, those who believe [in Islam], those who are Jewish, the Christians, and the converts; anyone who believes in GOD, and believes in the Last Day, and leads a righteous life, will receive their recompense from their Lord. They have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.
    Surah al-Baqarat verse 62
    http://www.masjidtucson.org/quran/noframes/ch2.html

    The widely accepted meaning of this (except among some hard line groups perhaps) is that people (note: "anyone") who have faith in God will be rewarded, even if they didn't convert to Islam, as long the reason they didn't convert is because they never had the opportunity to obtain “a true and complete understanding of Islam”, and as long as they obeyed what they DID follow what they sincerely believed was the law of God.

    I’m not suggesting that YOU feel this way but it is interesting that a large portion of the non-Muslim population often sees Islam as some weird, barbaric, archaic cult that is bent on the destruction of Jews and Christians when in fact Muslims themselves view Islam as the completion, or the continuation to maturity of both Judaism and Christianity (in much the same way that Christians see the biblical New Testament as a matured form of Judaism; new laws, new covenant’s etc.). Muslims actually believe that God revealed the Torah to Moses (yes, the same Moses) and also revealed the Gospel to Jesus (yes, they know and revere Jesus). Muslims believe that God revealed the Qu’ran to provide guidance in its complete and final form. Islam, in it’s most fundamental form, teaches that Judaism and Christianity both contain truth and are both based on revelations from God but it also teaches that followers of these religions have distorted the true faith with a mixture of God and man-made teachings and doctrines.

    The majority of Muslims are not trying to send all non-Muslims to hell and most of them are not even trying to squeeze that translation out of various verses of the Qu’ran and propagate that teaching throughout the earth. In fact, the word “infidel”, commonly used nowadays (especially in the media) to describe ALL non-Muslims, is not even a Muslim (Arabic) word; it is a word that has its origins in Christianity and was used to describe – now brace yourself – NON-CHRISTIANS. That’s right. Because of it’s incorrectly presumed similarly in meaning, the Middle French word “infidèle” (from Latin “infidelis”) was the word chosen to translate the Arabic word “kafir”, a word used by the Qur'an to describe people who were guilty of rejection or non-acceptance of the truth. To this day the word “kafir” is still translated to the word “infidel” even though many Arabic speaking people never actually use it; they typically say “kafir” which is in turn often fed back to us in English as “infidel” (and to
    heap ignorance upon ignorance we incorrectly assume this is a Muslim term used to describe someone who needs their throat cut for disavowing Islam – it’s just absolute nonsense).

    ONLINE ETYMOLOGY DICTIONARY
    http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=infidel

    There are actually many types of “kafir” (abstract noun “kufr”) in the Qu’ran.
    WIKIPEDIA
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kafir#Q...nic_references

    The actual translation of the word “kafir” (alt. Khafir) for the purposes of being apostate means “one who is enraged toward” (as in opposition to). Simply put, once cannot be enraged toward something he does not know.

    So, here we’ve come full circle haven’t we? To be a “kafir” one must knowingly and knowledgably reject Islam and if one has not had the opportunity to learn then one cannot knowingly reject it. If one is not even a kafir he certainly cannot be described as an infidel, can he? Therefore the logical answer to your question, “Are all non-Muslims condemned to hell?”, the answer is “not necessarily”. All non-Muslims are not kafir and all kafir are not infidels.

    If a person knowingly rejects Islam that has been intelligently presented to him, he will in all likelihood, according the Qu’ran suffer the fate of an apostate, which is damnation. If a person, by virtue of circumstance, misses the opportunity to embrace Islam or fails to embrace Islam because it was not adequately, accurately or completely presented to him, there is hope, according to the Qu’ran, that Allah will be merciful to him so long as he embraces God in the manner of his own understanding.

    Is this in contradiction to other verses of the Qu’ran that speak of shirk? Well, herein lies the basis of dissent between interpretations (just as the Bible is widely and variously interpreted) and one could go on for a lifetime with this debate. It matters not that the hypothetical child was born of Muslim parents; in Islam all people are
    viewed the same. In the Qu’ran (An-Nisaa' 4:48) the scripture says that Allah forgives “whom he pleaseth”, and herein (when taken with both Surah Al-Baqarah verse 62, and Surah al-Ma'ida verse 69) also lies the hope that those who are circumstantially ignorant to Islam will be saved.

    Again, let me say that this, like the answer to your other question, is subject to interpretation. What I have offered you is a widely subscribed belief that can be debated depending on whom you wish todebate.

    I hope you find that my answer exceeds your expectations. If you have any questions about my research please post a clarification request prior to rating the answer. Otherwise I welcome your rating and your final comments and I look forward to working with you again in the near future. Thank you for bringing your question to us.

    Best regards;
    Tutuzdad-ga – Google Answers Researcher

    http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=786235


    I prefer this view.

    "And if all the trees in the earth were pens, and the sea, with seven more seas to help it, (were ink), the words of Allah could not be exhausted. Lo! Allah is Mighty, Wise." -- Qur'an
  • Heaven or hell
     Reply #3 - November 01, 2015, 08:12 PM

    So perhaps the best way to go about this is to make sure no one really understands Islam because exposing them to a true and complete understanding can land them in hell if they reject it, while those ignorant have something of a free pass to heaven as long as they're relatively good.

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Heaven or hell
     Reply #4 - November 01, 2015, 09:17 PM

    Quote
    So perhaps the best way to go about this is to make sure no one really understands Islam because exposing them to a true and complete understanding can land them in hell if they reject it, while those ignorant have something of a free pass to heaven as long as they're relatively good.


    I like you, you're currently my favorite member.  Smiley

    Could have worked but maybe 1,400 years too late? As from 2001, Islam has been in the media 24/7/365 blaring out to every corner of the world, asking people to reach out and discover why Islam is so bad, so evil. Of course some people will fall into the trap of converting instead of hating and equally some will end up rejecting their faith. Seems like Islam can't keep everyone happy. Exactly what Allah says in the scripture.  Wink

    P.S Allah would know what you're thinking, so you might not get away by deliberately trying to avoid it.

    "And if all the trees in the earth were pens, and the sea, with seven more seas to help it, (were ink), the words of Allah could not be exhausted. Lo! Allah is Mighty, Wise." -- Qur'an
  • Heaven or hell
     Reply #5 - November 02, 2015, 02:47 AM

    No, it's not that simple. Here is another view from an Islamic Scholar who worked for Google Answers:

    Will non-believers go to hell? - not necessarily.

    I prefer this view.


    Which still places me in hell since I do not accept Islams claims. I have read a lot of work by scholars which still failed to convince me. The basic flaws are this, first off there is no presented argument for God which does not have objections. Two, they present their assertion, Islam is from God, as a fact without resolving the first point. Until this happens everything else they say is moot as these two premises must be supported rather than accepted as fact beforehand.
  • Heaven or hell
     Reply #6 - November 02, 2015, 03:22 AM

    I prefer this view.

    No hope for atheists then?

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Heaven or hell
     Reply #7 - November 02, 2015, 09:50 AM

    The concept of hell as it exists in modern Abrahamic faiths is largely an evolution of primate penile displays. It's about saying "I'm better than you, and far more bad-ass, you'd better back down." At some point, it became about proving we were better through fighting, which may have led to our distinct facial structure. That became more difficult for people who were intelligent, but not very muscular. So then they had to find a way to convince other people that they really were bigger and badder without showing off their bodies. So they made a god who was much bigger and badder. Then their neighbors had to make gods that were bigger and badder still. And then it all sort of spiraled out of control when empires started being formed, because it wasn't just two families, tribes, or cities competing anymore, it was entire geographical regions, with tons of resources and people. But now the empires have gone, the world is more peaceful than it has ever been, and we're realizing it is detrimental to this nice peace we have to try to be bigger and badder. Preserving peace means we have more nice things: it's hard to keep stable electricity, phone lines, and internet with bombs dropping all around you, and those electric/telecommunications nice things help you get even more nice things. So most people are softening up their views of their religion. Except a few outliers, but they for the most part don't have consistent access to the electric/telecommunications nice things, so maybe we should try building those and see if that helps.

    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • Heaven or hell
     Reply #8 - November 02, 2015, 02:21 PM

    I like you, you're currently my favorite member.  Smiley

    Could have worked but maybe 1,400 years too late? As from 2001, Islam has been in the media 24/7/365 blaring out to every corner of the world, asking people to reach out and discover why Islam is so bad, so evil. Of course some people will fall into the trap of converting instead of hating and equally some will end up rejecting their faith. Seems like Islam can't keep everyone happy. Exactly what Allah says in the scripture.  Wink

    P.S Allah would know what you're thinking, so you might not get away by deliberately trying to avoid it.


    Why are you so happy with making sure people go to hell?

    Seriously, what's with apologists' psychotic streak of seeing disbelievers burn in hell? Can't tell you how many times I have debated muslims apologists who tell me he'll be satisfied seeing me burn in hell, lol.

    What's wrong with the lot of you...
  • Heaven or hell
     Reply #9 - November 03, 2015, 08:13 AM

    Assalamu Alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakaatu
    There is a position amidst many contemporary scholars that non muslims WILL NOT go to hell just for being non muslims.
    Obviously belief in god is determined by social, geographical and even psychological or genetic factors.
    We believe life to be a series of Choices, and as a Muslim, I believe Islam teaches the best choices, nonetheless of course a non muslim can make the right choices, and naturally better choices than many muslims.
    I like scholar Shabir Ally who states, 'Creating people just so that they may die and go to hell seems a waste of creation, simply impractical, and We don't believe Allah (swt) to be Impractical'
    Live a good life, make the right choices, respect creation and respect your self, and Inshallah you will be granted a noble entrance into paradise.
    Its actually said that anyone who condemns anyone else to hell, will themselves be punished, because one cannot put a limit on the mercy of Allah.
    Hope you consider this.
    Peace


    Raise your words, not voice. It is rain that grows flowers, not thunder
  • Heaven or hell
     Reply #10 - November 03, 2015, 08:20 AM

    Do atheists have a shot at paradise?

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Heaven or hell
     Reply #11 - November 03, 2015, 08:50 AM

    Quod Sum Eris
    Its a really bad sin for me to say if you can go to heaven or not. Only allah (swt) can judge
    But I believe that my god is most beneficent most merciful.
    Make good choices, live a good life, care for creation and I believe you 'have as good and fair a shot as anyone' of course. Because good action and charity is a core Islamic principle, and even if you do not believe in Allah (swt) for reasons personal to you, you are still fulfilling the commandments and will of Allah (swt) by doing so.
    "no fear will there be concerning you, nor shall you grieve"
    Actions in Islam are judged on the basis of intentions too, if your intentions are good then you are good.
    Also, your iman is personal. If you don't go around burning masjids or whatever then the muslim community should really have no business in determining whether you go to hell or not. 

    Raise your words, not voice. It is rain that grows flowers, not thunder
  • Heaven or hell
     Reply #12 - November 03, 2015, 09:55 AM

    Assalamu Alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakaatu
    There is a position amidst many contemporary scholars that non muslims WILL NOT go to hell just for being non muslims.
    Obviously belief in god is determined by social, geographical and even psychological or genetic factors.
    We believe life to be a series of Choices, and as a Muslim, I believe Islam teaches the best choices, nonetheless of course a non muslim can make the right choices, and naturally better choices than many muslims.
    I like scholar Shabir Ally who states, 'Creating people just so that they may die and go to hell seems a waste of creation, simply impractical, and We don't believe Allah (swt) to be Impractical'
    Live a good life, make the right choices, respect creation and respect your self, and Inshallah you will be granted a noble entrance into paradise.
    Its actually said that anyone who condemns anyone else to hell, will themselves be punished, because one cannot put a limit on the mercy of Allah.
    Hope you consider this.
    Peace



    It is Ok to have and believe in blind beliefs  but it is NOT right to project as facts and brain wash children with  blind beliefs ElRafa .. you can believe shanghai monster or cloud in the sky as you god/allah whatever ., no one will stop you believing.... but you can not do these things in the name of that allah belief...


    Quote
    O Prophet! Why do you forbid (for yourself) that which Allah has allowed to you, seeking to please your wives? And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.   
     
    2   Allah has already ordained for you (O men) the absolution from your oaths. And Allah is your Maula (Lord, or Master, or Protector) and He is the All-Knower, the All-Wise.   
     
    3   And (remember) when the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم) disclosed a matter in confidence to one of his wives (Hafsah), then she told it (to another i.e. 'Aishah). And Allah made it known to him; he informed part thereof and left a part. Then when he told her (Hafsah) thereof, she said: "Who told you this?" He said: "The All-Knower, the All-Aware (Allah) has told me."   
     
     
    5   It may be if he divorced you (all) that his Lord will give him instead of you, wives better than you - Muslims (who submit to Allah), believers, obedient (to Allah), turning to Allah in repentance, worshipping Allah sincerely, given to fasting or emigrants (for Allah's sake), previously married and virgins. 

     

     

    read more Quran...

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Heaven or hell
     Reply #13 - November 03, 2015, 10:11 AM

    Yeezevee, this is clearly a generic response to all muslims you find
    Please explain the decontextualized Qur'anic verses, I do not understand your point.
    My children are free to forge their own paths and find their own conclusions.
    I never projected them as facts mate, what are you saying? I described my own personal beliefs, and an Islamic scholarly opinion.
    Islam is MY way of expressing the inexpressible, people are free to believe in Tengri, the sky god, Zoroastrianism, whatever they want, to do the same. If you choose to believe in nothing, then that is your choice. But i will question, do you believe your own assumptions about the universe to be factual?

    Raise your words, not voice. It is rain that grows flowers, not thunder
  • Heaven or hell
     Reply #14 - November 03, 2015, 10:20 AM

    Yeezevee, this is clearly a generic response to all muslims you find
    Please explain the decontextualized Qur'anic verses, I do not understand your point.
    My children are free to forge their own paths and find their own conclusions.
    I never projected them as facts mate, what are you saying? I described my own personal beliefs, and an Islamic scholarly opinion.
    Islam is MY way of expressing the inexpressible, people are free to believe in Tengri, the sky god, Zoroastrianism, whatever they want, to do the same. If you choose to believe in nothing, then that is your choice. But i will question, do you believe your own assumptions about the universe to be factual?


    The question is NOT what you believe and what you said  ElRafa.,,

    The question is what people are doing and what people have  done in the name of these  blind beliefs., People must have freedom and rights to question all beliefs.

    And that is all what the members of this forum are saying

    Quote
    "Please explain the decontextualized Qur'anic verses, I do not understand your point. "


    well those two words indirectly  says "Quran is time bound and event bound  text.,,So it can not be word some allah/god/ voodoo doll for all times and all situations.. " It is just a text written/compiled by some Arab nomads..   and I am just reading it..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Heaven or hell
     Reply #15 - November 03, 2015, 10:35 AM

    To reduce the Qur'an to 'a book compiled by some arab nomads', exposes blatant demagoguery and emotionalism in your criticism.
    Even from a secular perspective, Its a 77,000 word completely rhyming text that is so nuanced it takes a several year degree to understand it at even a basic level.
    It is probably the most influential text of all time, It, and Mohammed (pbuh), transformed the Arabs from a conglomeration of warring tribes into one of the largest empires the world has ever seen, whose influence spanned centuries and changed the world in a profound manner.
    Islam is soon to be the largest Religion in the world. And this book written by 'some arab nomads' will be thusly the most important text in the world.
    To boil it down to what you did is just ridiculous sir.
    http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/mathematical_01.html
    "just a text written by some nomadic arabs"^^^
    how arrogant.
    I do not disagree with the rights of people to freedom of conscious? So why did you feel the need to educate me on this? You are generalising and stereotyping all religious people.

    Raise your words, not voice. It is rain that grows flowers, not thunder
  • Heaven or hell
     Reply #16 - November 03, 2015, 10:53 AM

    To reduce the Qur'an to 'a book compiled by some arab nomads', exposes blatant demagoguery and emotionalism in your criticism.

     what demagoguery and what  emotionalism is there ElRafa?? , Every book that is there on t his earth.,   "Some one has to say/write/compile".. and that goes to all books.. Quran is No exception to that simple rule..

    Quote
    Even from a secular perspective, Its a 77,000 word completely rhyming text that is so nuanced it takes a several year degree to understand it at even a basic level.

     yes Arabic text is poetic and rhyming  So?  It is still a text, a book..

    Quote
    It is probably the most influential text of all time, It, and Mohammed (pbuh), transformed the Arabs from a conglomeration of warring tribes into one of the largest empires the world has ever seen, whose influence spanned centuries and changed the world in a profound manner.

     Yes it did influence and it does influence ., So what ElRafa?  there are politics behind empire building and I am not sure you read early history of Islam.

      Anyways just because people built empires on some faith   doesn't make it as word of Allah/god whatever.,  The moment you accept Quran is word of Allah.. then very book and every word and every sound will be come word of allah/god whatever

    Quote
    Islam is soon to be the largest Religion in the world. And this book written by 'some arab nomads' will be thusly the most important text in the world.

    well time  will tell that but so what?

    Quote
    To boil it down to what you did is just ridiculous sir.
    http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/mathematical_01.html
    "just a text written by some nomadic arabs"^^^
    how arrogant.

    what is that link and what does it say ElRafa ??  let me read through it..

    Quote
    I do not disagree with the rights of people to freedom of conscious? So why did you feel the need to educate me on this? You are generalising and stereotyping all religious people.

    NOT freedom of conscious .. ....... but freedom to question   .....

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Heaven or hell
     Reply #17 - November 03, 2015, 10:59 AM

    I sense in your description of the Qur'an, that you do not have much respect for It
    I am pointing out simply that, even from a secular perspective, respect is warranted
    This is not just another book
    And of course freedom to question is integral. I endorse this right

    Raise your words, not voice. It is rain that grows flowers, not thunder
  • Heaven or hell
     Reply #18 - November 03, 2015, 11:03 AM

    I sense in your description of the Qur'an, that you do not have much respect for It
    I am pointing out simply that, even from a secular perspective, respect is warranted
    This is not just another book

      It is and It is just a book as any book  ElRafa ., and it is book of its times.,  And  I give as much respect as I give to any book..

    anyways  let me read your link and watch this for some time..

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLk69EOmSHY

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Heaven or hell
     Reply #19 - November 03, 2015, 11:04 AM

    Quote
    t is probably the most influential text of all time, It, and Mohammed (pbuh), transformed the Arabs from a conglomeration of warring tribes into one of the largest empires the world has ever seen, whose influence spanned centuries and changed the world in a profound manner.


    No Mo never conquered those areas of the emerging empire outside of Arabia. Bakr kept what Mo created together since there was a rebellion following the death of Mo. His followers that didn't rebel get credit not Mo.

    Quote
    Islam is soon to be the largest Religion in the world. And this book written by 'some arab nomads' will be thusly the most important text in the world.


    Fallacious point. Being the largest religion in no way shows any truth value.

    Quote


    Numerology is a pseudoscience. Go look up the Bible Code. Beside I guess you missed out a fact about the world in which the amount of water/land ratio changes as areas flood, river sediment builds up and shifts due to tectonics. Besides the ratio today is 70.8 water not 71.1 so in the end your source proves the Quran is wrong if using inane numerology. You are posting standard apologist tripe which this forum sees every few weeks. You found some apologist site, rushed to confirmation bias then proceed to share your apologist tripe without fact checking it first.
  • Heaven or hell
     Reply #20 - November 03, 2015, 11:07 AM

    I sense in your description of the Qur'an, that you do not have much respect for It
    I am pointing out simply that, even from a secular perspective, respect is warranted
    This is not just another book
    And of course freedom to question is integral. I endorse this right


    Shakespear's work is not just any other work. I think we can acknowledge the texts influence upon the world via it's followers but I am not obligated to respect a text because it is good poetry when it contain horrible ideas. I do not respect horrible ideas.
  • Heaven or hell
     Reply #21 - November 03, 2015, 11:17 AM

    Shakespear's work is not just any other work. I think we can acknowledge the texts influence upon the world via it's followers but I am not obligated to respect a text because it is good poetry when it contain horrible ideas. I do not respect horrible ideas.


    What horrible ideas?

    Raise your words, not voice. It is rain that grows flowers, not thunder
  • Heaven or hell
     Reply #22 - November 03, 2015, 11:20 AM

    You're so eager to disprove Islam, you'll see that has nothing to do with what i was talking about. The point wasn't truth of the Qur'an, rather the significance of it, from a secular perspective.
    Its going to be the most important book in the world soon, according to most predictions.
    It should thus be treated with more respect. In my opinion. To suggest the qur'an has nothing to offer is just dogmatic and imprudent.
     

    Fallacious point. Being the largest religion in no way shows any truth value.

    Numerology is a pseudoscience. Go look up the Bible Code. Beside I guess you missed out a fact about the world in which the amount of water/land ratio changes as areas flood, river sediment builds up and shifts due to tectonics. Besides the ratio today is 70.8 water not 71.1 so in the end your source proves the Quran is wrong if using inane numerology. You are posting standard apologist tripe which this forum sees every few weeks. You found some apologist site, rushed to confirmation bias then proceed to share your apologist tripe without fact checking it first.


    I'm not using this to prove the qur'ans divinity. Read what I say.
    All apologists appear the same to you because you whitewash them all.

    Raise your words, not voice. It is rain that grows flowers, not thunder
  • Heaven or hell
     Reply #23 - November 03, 2015, 11:25 AM

    Notice i never once said on this thread that the qur'an is divine.
    That just proves your eagerness to whitewash

    Raise your words, not voice. It is rain that grows flowers, not thunder
  • Heaven or hell
     Reply #24 - November 03, 2015, 11:32 AM

    Notice i never once said on this thread that the qur'an is divine.
    That just proves your eagerness to whitewash

    well many of your posts suggest that Quran is a divinely ordained text  ElRafa.,

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Heaven or hell
     Reply #25 - November 03, 2015, 11:39 AM

    What horrible ideas?


    Slavery, jiyzah, polygamy without polyandry, the association of unbelievers with negatives more often than not. There are good ideas as well. However the negative really reflect the human hand in the creation of the text as the divine could come up with better systems considering humans did to the point of slavery being illegal.
  • Heaven or hell
     Reply #26 - November 03, 2015, 11:40 AM

    Notice i never once said on this thread that the qur'an is divine.
    That just proves your eagerness to whitewash


    Your tag is in error then since Sunni Islam has this view.
  • Heaven or hell
     Reply #27 - November 03, 2015, 11:40 AM

    well many of your posts suggest that Quran is a divinely ordained text  ElRafa.,

    My posts seem to suggest what my opponent wants them to suggest.
    I wasn't even looking for an argument on here to be honest. Thats why I avoided such statements
    You can disagree with Islam and the divinity of the Qur'an
    I'm just concerned there are underlying sentiments of disrespect.
    And disrespect toward Islam is disrespect to me, my life, my worldview, my friends, my values, ethics, my family.
    Disagreement is fine
    I take disrespect personally

    Raise your words, not voice. It is rain that grows flowers, not thunder
  • Heaven or hell
     Reply #28 - November 03, 2015, 11:47 AM

    My posts seem to suggest what my opponent wants them to suggest.
    I wasn't even looking for an argument on here to be honest. Thats why I avoided such statements
    You can disagree with Islam and the divinity of the Qur'an


    That is all what people are doing in this forum ElRafa.,  Questioning faiths and all faiths .. faith heads...

    Quote
    I'm just concerned there are underlying sentiments of disrespect.

    And disrespect toward Islam is disrespect to me, my life, my worldview, my friends, my values, ethics, my family.
    Disagreement is fine
    I take disrespect personally

    I understand your concerns  ElRafa .,    but don't take Questioning a faith, a book , a statement in book as disrespecting you, your life, your worldview, your  friends, your  values, your ethics, and your  family.

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Heaven or hell
     Reply #29 - November 03, 2015, 11:47 AM

    You're so eager to disprove Islam, you'll see that has nothing to do with what i was talking about. The point wasn't truth of the Qur'an, rather the significance of it, from a secular perspective.
    Its going to be the most important book in the world soon, according to most predictions.


    I acknowledged it's significance as history shows this fact. However being important to the masses is irrelevant outside of history and what the masses do with it. It's importance must be applied in context of the topic at hand. When the context shifts to ideas the Quran has nothing of merit to comment on then it is not important. In say a biology or physic context the Quran has nothing to offer. If we are talking about politics in Islamic nation then it does.

    Quote
    It should thus be treated with more respect. In my opinion. To suggest the qur'an has nothing to offer is just dogmatic and imprudent.


    You are using it's importance as a generalization. I am pointing out this is fallacious since importance is based on topic context as mentioned above.
     
    Quote
    I'm not using this to prove the qur'ans divinity. Read what I say.
    All apologists appear the same to you because you whitewash them all.


    When you link apologist numerology what do you expect? Read what you link as it uses argument to establish it's divinity. You are obfuscating
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