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 Topic: Muslim men. Honor and duty to women demand that you outlaw the hijab, niqab and

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  • Muslim men. Honor and duty to women demand that you outlaw the hijab, niqab and
     Reply #90 - December 14, 2015, 12:20 AM
    Quote from: Greatest I am on December 13, 2015, 09:27 PM
    A change of regime is not a change of ideology.

    Many Muslim nations have changed regimes regularly but no ideological change comes about.

    I was thinking of ideological change and that is why I mention the dress codes.

    Regards
    DL



    In these cases the change of regime did change the ideology.
    Afghanistan lost the looser interpretation of the seventies and Iran lost any pretense of secularism.
    Why would the state religion be immune to the change of government, when the governments are aligned with religion? These countries are not secular. They do not differentiate between religion and state.
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Muslim men. Honor and duty to women demand that you outlaw the hijab, niqab and
     Reply #91 - December 14, 2015, 12:35 AM
    The way I see it is that the ideology of misogyny or patriarchy remained the same. Just moving the pole higher or lower does not change the sport of high jump. If I may put it that way.

    A change of ideology on this issue would have been an end to the misogyny or patriarchy.

    The same idea applies to my own democratic country. Just changing from a Conservative government to a Liberal one does not change our basic  ideology, it just changes the height of the bar.

    Regards
    DL
    God is a cosmic consciousness.
    Telepathy the key to contact.
    Our next evolutionary step. No choice.
  • Muslim men. Honor and duty to women demand that you outlaw the hijab, niqab and
     Reply #92 - December 14, 2015, 12:39 AM
    Quote from: three on December 14, 2015, 12:20 AM
    These countries are not secular. They do not differentiate between religion and state.


    I wanted to speak to this separately.

    Why have a government at all if the religion holds power?

    Why not just a social sector within the mosque to deal with what and Iranian  government would do?

    I can see why in ancient days the king would have sanctioned a religion but I cannot see why a religion would sanction a government.

    Care to opine.

    Regards
    DL
    God is a cosmic consciousness.
    Telepathy the key to contact.
    Our next evolutionary step. No choice.
  • Muslim men. Honor and duty to women demand that you outlaw the hijab, niqab and
     Reply #93 - December 14, 2015, 01:42 AM
    Quote from: Greatest I am on December 14, 2015, 12:35 AM
    The way I see it is that the ideology of misogyny or patriarchy remained the same. Just moving the pole higher or lower does not change the sport of high jump. If I may put it that way.

    A change of ideology on this issue would have been an end to the misogyny or patriarchy.

    The same idea applies to my own democratic country. Just changing from a Conservative government to a Liberal one does not change our basic  ideology, it just changes the height of the bar.

    Regards
    DL



    Seriously. I want to be hopeful about it, but... misogyny and patriarchy are rampant in the USA. If you want immediate and extreme change like that then you should find another geography, not a place lacking even in basic necessities and education.
    You again are comparing religious governments with secular governments, and they are apples to oranges.
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Muslim men. Honor and duty to women demand that you outlaw the hijab, niqab and
     Reply #94 - December 14, 2015, 01:51 AM
    Quote from: Greatest I am on December 14, 2015, 12:39 AM
    I wanted to speak to this separately.

    Why have a government at all if the religion holds power?

    Why not just a social sector within the mosque to deal with what and Iranian  government would do?

    I can see why in ancient days the king would have sanctioned a religion but I cannot see why a religion would sanction a government.

    Care to opine.

    Regards
    DL


    I think religions sanction governments because they believe they must enforce the will of a god onto a people in order to further their own ascent into a heaven. Religion gives an adherent a feeling of superiority, and so of course, it is ¨what is best for them.¨
    In regards to the first few questions:
    Your local church does not enforce the law. The arms of government set and enforce the law, and this is required on a national level so that the laws are uniform for all and not based on the opinions of different popes, priests, or imams. Even a religious government must do it this way, separating enforcement from legal from government. Otherwise you have, instead of a caliphate, a hundred little dictatorships, each with their own imam. One law unifies the country, a hundred different neighborhood laws do not.
    Iran has consistent laws throughout the country, even in the Sunni regions, rather than each mullah in charge of a masjid setting up their own court. The proof of that can be seen in their practice of transferring the arrested from outlying areas into Tehran while in custody.
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Muslim men. Honor and duty to women demand that you outlaw the hijab, niqab and
     Reply #95 - December 14, 2015, 02:37 AM
    Quote from: Greatest I am on December 14, 2015, 12:39 AM
    I wanted to speak to this separately.

    Why have a government at all if the religion holds power?

    Why not just a social sector within the mosque to deal with what and Iranian  government would do?

    I can see why in ancient days the king would have sanctioned a religion but I cannot see why a religion would sanction a government.

    Care to opine.

    Regards
    DL


    hahahahah. I can't answer for Iran or Afghanistan, but in Indonesia it's a decoy until they convert everyone to Islam.

    In its conception, Indonesia was supposed to unify Dutch colonies in east asia. Except that they went over that and claimed Papua + Timor + etc as well.

    In the beginning, they wanted to make Islamic republic as well. Then they realized that many regions in Indonesia are still Hindu and Christian and Buddhist. These regions will separate if Indonesia becomes Islamic country.

    Even until now, there are still separation groups - who want Papua to separate from Indonesia. Papua is mostly Christian. Bali is like 70% Hindu now, was 100% Hindu before.

    Honestly, I don't trust the government at all. Indonesia's government treat muslims just that much better, and they seek on Islamizing everything. They imported a lot of muslim Javanese to Bali, appointed muslim head of government who build a lot of mosques, and Balinese people do know about it. They actually try to censor Balinese ethnic clothes as well, LMAO.

    When East Timor separated from Indonesia, you know what they did? Complain about how Islam won't be able to propagate there. Oh wow, definitely top priority right?

    These Islamizing is something many locals notice. Mosques are getting louder and louder, and unless you have a big enough organization to protest about it, there's nothing you can do.

    Not to mention that under Indonesia's constitution, Paganism was basically erased and every pagans are converted to Islam as default. Because this (pagan) village is 100% muslims, why not we just build mosques there? Oh great idea!!

    Not to mention the history book and how they began erasing the history of Indonesia's Hindu kingdom. They only teached the Islamic ones... Yeah great.

    Indonesia's history is being erased, and nothing we can do about it.

    I don't trust muslim government, not even one bit. Every single public school is basically a madrassah now. You go to public school you learn Islam. What if you're not muslim, where do your children go? Private school. Can't afford it? Boooooooooo! Sucks to be you. If the community is big enough you might be able to demand another religious education, but really nothing you can do about it.
  • Muslim men. Honor and duty to women demand that you outlaw the hijab, niqab and
     Reply #96 - December 14, 2015, 02:42 AM
    Quote from: three on December 14, 2015, 01:42 AM
    Seriously. I want to be hopeful about it, but... misogyny and patriarchy are rampant in the USA.


    Wait really?

    I mean aside from religions like Mormonism, Christianity or Islam... the USA is sexist?
  • Muslim men. Honor and duty to women demand that you outlaw the hijab, niqab and
     Reply #97 - December 14, 2015, 03:27 AM
    Yes, it is.
    It´s better than it used to be, but not where it should be.
    It affects my income, my education, my status in society, my safety, and how I am treated when I advocate for my son, go to court, or get medical help.
    The older I get the more I notice it and the more resentful I become.
    It is ridiculous that I should not be taken as seriously as a man, or that I have to work harder or more hours to get the same income.
    It is horrifying, really. If this is first world then the first world needs some major help.
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Muslim men. Honor and duty to women demand that you outlaw the hijab, niqab and
     Reply #98 - December 14, 2015, 04:28 AM
    Don't think the argument would work imo. A traditional muslim man's honor is not that dependent upon ensuring his family is safe. his honor relies upon his ability to keep the women of his household under his control, and under the sharia. if not, he's a "dayouth". saying that a man is "dayouth" over here is a huge insult, it's like saying he's less than a man, he's emasculated. so if he lets his wife or daughters show off their awrah, mixing freely with men, etc, he's potentially going to be called a dayouth.

    strangely enough a man is not considered shamed if he's not providing for his women, or is negligent in keeping them safe. provision and safety is bestowed by Allah. It's one's rizq. and their safety is dependent on allah's protection, which in turn is dependent on how much Allah is pleased with them, ie with following the sharia. so a woman's safety is seen as dependent on how she covers up, on how she doesn't go out, how she doesn't mix with men. if she does all this, then Allah will protect her. If not, she deserved it, and the man of the house isn't shamed because she was endangered, but because he didn't keep his hand on her, and thus was a dayouth
    "we stand firm calling to allah all the time,
    we let them know - bang! bang! - coz it's dawah time!"
  • Muslim men. Honor and duty to women demand that you outlaw the hijab, niqab and
     Reply #99 - December 14, 2015, 07:07 AM
    Quote from: three on December 14, 2015, 03:27 AM
    Yes, it is.
    It´s better than it used to be, but not where it should be.
    It affects my income, my education, my status in society, my safety, and how I am treated when I advocate for my son, go to court, or get medical help.
    The older I get the more I notice it and the more resentful I become.
    It is ridiculous that I should not be taken as seriously as a man, or that I have to work harder or more hours to get the same income.
    It is horrifying, really. If this is first world then the first world needs some major help.



    Do you have a specific, anecdotal example for this?

    I was under assumption that it doesn't happen in the US. Many, many women are quite successful, after all.

    Quote from: kephas on December 14, 2015, 04:28 AM
    so a woman's safety is seen as dependent on how she covers up, on how she doesn't go out, how she doesn't mix with men. if she does all this, then Allah will protect her. If not, she deserved it, and the man of the house isn't shamed because she was endangered, but because he didn't keep his hand on her, and thus was a dayouth


    Muslim country in a nutshell. Victim-blaming, slut-shaming on full force.
  • Muslim men. Honor and duty to women demand that you outlaw the hijab, niqab and
     Reply #100 - December 14, 2015, 05:27 PM
    Quote from: three on December 14, 2015, 01:42 AM
    Seriously. I want to be hopeful about it, but... misogyny and patriarchy are rampant in the USA. If you want immediate and extreme change like that then you should find another geography, not a place lacking even in basic necessities and education.
    You again are comparing religious governments with secular governments, and they are apples to oranges.


    Call them what you will, they are all institutions created for social manipulation and control.

    But you are right that misogyny is rampant thanks mostly to religions.

    Secular law grants equality under the law.

    Regards
    DL
    God is a cosmic consciousness.
    Telepathy the key to contact.
    Our next evolutionary step. No choice.
  • Muslim men. Honor and duty to women demand that you outlaw the hijab, niqab and
     Reply #101 - December 14, 2015, 05:32 PM
    Quote from: three on December 14, 2015, 01:51 AM
    I think religions sanction governments because they believe they must enforce the will of a god onto a people in order to further their own ascent into a heaven. Religion gives an adherent a feeling of superiority, and so of course, it is ¨what is best for them.¨
    In regards to the first few questions:
    Your local church does not enforce the law. The arms of government set and enforce the law, and this is required on a national level so that the laws are uniform for all and not based on the opinions of different popes, priests, or imams. Even a religious government must do it this way, separating enforcement from legal from government. Otherwise you have, instead of a caliphate, a hundred little dictatorships, each with their own imam. One law unifies the country, a hundred different neighborhood laws do not.
    Iran has consistent laws throughout the country, even in the Sunni regions, rather than each mullah in charge of a masjid setting up their own court. The proof of that can be seen in their practice of transferring the arrested from outlying areas into Tehran while in custody.


    I would agree that a government is more important than a religion for unifying people.

    Thanks for this.

    Regards
    DL

    God is a cosmic consciousness.
    Telepathy the key to contact.
    Our next evolutionary step. No choice.
  • Muslim men. Honor and duty to women demand that you outlaw the hijab, niqab and
     Reply #102 - December 14, 2015, 05:37 PM
    Quote from: kephas on December 14, 2015, 04:28 AM
    Don't think the argument would work imo. A traditional muslim man's honor is not that dependent upon ensuring his family is safe. his honor relies upon his ability to keep the women of his household under his control, and under the sharia. if not, he's a "dayouth". saying that a man is "dayouth" over here is a huge insult, it's like saying he's less than a man, he's emasculated. so if he lets his wife or daughters show off their awrah, mixing freely with men, etc, he's potentially going to be called a dayouth.

    strangely enough a man is not considered shamed if he's not providing for his women, or is negligent in keeping them safe. provision and safety is bestowed by Allah. It's one's rizq. and their safety is dependent on allah's protection, which in turn is dependent on how much Allah is pleased with them, ie with following the sharia. so a woman's safety is seen as dependent on how she covers up, on how she doesn't go out, how she doesn't mix with men. if she does all this, then Allah will protect her. If not, she deserved it, and the man of the house isn't shamed because she was endangered, but because he didn't keep his hand on her, and thus was a dayouth


    A totally sick attitude.

    Thanks for the reply.

    Regards
    DL
    God is a cosmic consciousness.
    Telepathy the key to contact.
    Our next evolutionary step. No choice.
  • Muslim men. Honor and duty to women demand that you outlaw the hijab, niqab and
     Reply #103 - December 14, 2015, 05:38 PM
    Quote from: Greatest I am on December 14, 2015, 05:32 PM
    I would agree that a government is more important than a religion for unifying people.

    DL


    That is only true if the governments are TRULY SECULAR  and  the role of religions/religious books/religious rogues is zeroooo...
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Muslim men. Honor and duty to women demand that you outlaw the hijab, niqab and
     Reply #104 - December 14, 2015, 07:20 PM
    I do not agree and neither does the Daley Lamas.

    I agree with him that any form of government can work if it is based on the Golden Rule.

    That could even include Sharia if it was not such an immoral creed.

    A government is considered good by why it does. Not by what it is labelled or called.

    Regards
    DL
    God is a cosmic consciousness.
    Telepathy the key to contact.
    Our next evolutionary step. No choice.
  • Muslim men. Honor and duty to women demand that you outlaw the hijab, niqab and
     Reply #105 - December 14, 2015, 07:26 PM
    Quote from: Greatest I am on December 14, 2015, 07:20 PM
    I do not agree and neither does the Daley Lamas.

    I agree with him that any form of government can work if it is based on the Golden Rule.

    That could even include Sharia if it was not such an immoral creed.

     ............................

    Any one who says that "neither he/she knows about Sharia laws nor golden rule.. "





    Damn.. even your DNA pic..looks like snake..
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Muslim men. Honor and duty to women demand that you outlaw the hijab, niqab and
     Reply #106 - December 14, 2015, 07:29 PM
    Do unto others.

    Where are women offered a bunch of virgins in heaven?

    Where are men offered as child husbands?

    Regards
    DL
    God is a cosmic consciousness.
    Telepathy the key to contact.
    Our next evolutionary step. No choice.
  • Muslim men. Honor and duty to women demand that you outlaw the hijab, niqab and
     Reply #107 - December 14, 2015, 07:50 PM
    Quote from: Greatest I am on December 14, 2015, 07:29 PM
    Do unto others.




    Quote

    Where are women offered a bunch of virgins in heaven?

    Where are men offered as child husbands?

     

    Snake Sharia law is NOT for Islamic heavens .. It is for earthlings... So your post is invalid....
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Muslim men. Honor and duty to women demand that you outlaw the hijab, niqab and
     Reply #108 - December 14, 2015, 08:09 PM
    Not when you cannot show where your books show that all are equal.

    Regards
    DL
    God is a cosmic consciousness.
    Telepathy the key to contact.
    Our next evolutionary step. No choice.
  • Muslim men. Honor and duty to women demand that you outlaw the hijab, niqab and
     Reply #109 - December 15, 2015, 02:55 AM
    Quote from: Helaine on December 14, 2015, 07:07 AM
    Do you have a specific, anecdotal example for this?

    I was under assumption that it doesn't happen in the US. Many, many women are quite successful, after all.

    Muslim country in a nutshell. Victim-blaming, slut-shaming on full force.


    A specific anecdotal example?
    If I stand in the doorway of my boss´s office, he finishes what he was saying to someone else and never acknowledges me. I have to say ¨excuse me¨ and then tell him what I need.
    If a man stands in the doorway of his office, he breaks off his conversation and asks him what he needs.
    Like that?
    Or maybe how women who care for their families (whether that be minors, elders, or the disabled) lose income and retirement funds as they are not moving up in the workforce. And do not argue that most caregivers are men. Because that would be a laughable claim.
    Or maybe how my workplace has an attendance incentive, and if you are called out of work to care for a sick child, you are out of the contest. Single mothers, as primary caregivers, do not have a chance if they have multiple children. I will never get the extra pay or the extra vacation, ironically, as I could use it more than the rest of the staff.
    Or maybe how when a coworker was telling me a story about his kids last week he started it with ¨I had to watch the kids...¨. I have never, in all my life, heard a mother say that. Only a father says this. WTF? Why does the father have an option, a choice, why is this unusual? It should not be.
    Or the jobs women traditionally do, why is the pay so very low? Why do men make more than women when they do the same work?
    So sexism is very alive. It is insidious, this is, after all, a patriarchal society. It is evident. It used to be worse, I am sure. But this is not what I want for my daughter.
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Muslim men. Honor and duty to women demand that you outlaw the hijab, niqab and
     Reply #110 - December 15, 2015, 02:57 AM
    Quote from: Greatest I am on December 14, 2015, 05:32 PM
    I would agree that a government is more important than a religion for unifying people.

    Thanks for this.

    Regards
    DL




    Yeah, it is. Look at Islam, same religion, all the sects are blowing each other up. Obviously not unification.
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Muslim men. Honor and duty to women demand that you outlaw the hijab, niqab and
     Reply #111 - December 15, 2015, 05:30 PM
    It is even stranger when Islam see3k a NWO or universal caliphate.

    Perhaps that is why everyone seems to be paying everyone else to fight against all sides.

    Muslims do not seem to mind killing other Muslims.

    A strange world indeed.

    Regards
    DL
    God is a cosmic consciousness.
    Telepathy the key to contact.
    Our next evolutionary step. No choice.
  • Muslim men. Honor and duty to women demand that you outlaw the hijab, niqab and
     Reply #112 - May 19, 2016, 05:34 PM
    Hijab and Niqab is a sign of oppression.
    Inequality between sexes.

    women rights are not there in islam.

    women have to bring up 4 witnesses if she is raped other wise she will be flogged/stoned to death for adultry.

    rape of nonmuslim women is legal in islam.

    What kind of religion is this ?

    Quote from: mtexmuslim on May 29, 2016, 10:54 PM
    I think you have some problem.
    Every thing I post, looks weird to you.


  • Muslim men. Honor and duty to women demand that you outlaw the hijab, niqab and
     Reply #113 - May 20, 2016, 06:38 AM
    Perhaps it's just me, but urging people to outlaw the hijab/niqab, by using words like 'duty and honour', is merely reinforcing the same patriarchy but in reverse. 

    It is honour and duty to women that puts women into brackets that need protection because you have a duty to, for your honour and theirs.  This is especially relevant since the OP (no longer with us) wants to address this to men.  You aren't changing their view of women and this so called duty to them that is attached to honour, and breaking that is better than creating a new sense of duty and honour that rests upon your view of women needing men to give them the freedom to take it off. 

    It is women that need to learn the strength to take it off.  Men granting women anything out of duty/honour, is no change of the deeply embedded gender hierarchy that exist, if women themselves still require men to grant them freedoms.
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Muslim men. Honor and duty to women demand that you outlaw the hijab, niqab and
     Reply #114 - May 20, 2016, 11:43 AM
    ^  Afro women don't need to be saved. It reinforces women in general and Muslim women specifically as perpetual victims in need of protection, whether that be saved by men, white/western women and so on.

    Women need to be empowered, to make the right decisions for themselves. And first and foremost, be able to have the options to chose what is right for them. The niqab/hijab and what it represents is far more complex, like all things in human culture, than just simply "but she chose it herself" or "she was forced to it".

    I'm quite tired of the simplistic discourse and its subsequent binary nonsense of "Muslim women are opressed" vs "Muslim women are free". As if reality were that simple for Muslim women, when it isn't for any other group.
    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Muslim men. Honor and duty to women demand that you outlaw the hijab, niqab and
     Reply #115 - May 28, 2016, 06:40 PM
    Quote from: mtexmuslim on May 19, 2016, 05:34 PM
    Hijab and Niqab is a sign of oppression.
    Inequality between sexes.

    women rights are not there in islam.

    women have to bring up 4 witnesses if she is raped other wise she will be flogged/stoned to death for adultry.

    rape of nonmuslim women is legal in islam.

    What kind of religion is this ?




    Like Christianity, not a moral one, --- and likely the most immoral that the world has seen in a mainstream religion.

    Regards
    DL
    God is a cosmic consciousness.
    Telepathy the key to contact.
    Our next evolutionary step. No choice.
  • Muslim men. Honor and duty to women demand that you outlaw the hijab, niqab and
     Reply #116 - June 06, 2017, 07:06 PM
    Quote from: Bolton34 on November 19, 2015, 12:43 PM
    Fun fact - when I wore hijab, Muslim boys saw it as an invitation to stake a claim on me. Constantly. It got to a point where I was even terrified at school because one of them wouldn't leave me alone... he even got his non-Muslim friends to join in the harassment.

    Muslim men on the other hand saw it as an invitation to talk down to me and decide to tell me what I can or can't do right away. Once at a Christmas stall I was looking at some chocolates, and this guy said right away "they all have alcohol, so you can't have ANY of them!"

    I was so angry.


    I recognize this from the time I was a muslimah.

    I once sat on a bus and a guy went on to sit next to me and put his hand on my leg, when I told him touching me was haram he said that if I was sincere I wouldn't be out in public so he could touch me anyway. He only stopped because I started reciting Qu'ran verses.
    One has to have been a fool to become wise
  • Muslim men. Honor and duty to women demand that you outlaw the hijab, niqab and
     Reply #117 - June 08, 2017, 07:11 AM
    It's difficult to give a response to that that doesn't involve swearing.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Muslim men. Honor and duty to women demand that you outlaw the hijab, niqab and
     Reply #118 - June 08, 2017, 11:43 PM
    Yeah, I couldn't say anything, either. Too angry. I know another story like that, too, from another girl. Exactly the same scenario, but in a cafe.
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Muslim men. Honor and duty to women demand that you outlaw the hijab, niqab and
     Reply #119 - June 09, 2017, 01:59 PM
    Quote from: BerberElla on May 20, 2016, 06:38 AM
    Perhaps it's just me, but urging people to outlaw the hijab/niqab, by using words like 'duty and honour', is merely reinforcing the same patriarchy but in reverse. 


    It's white knight syndrome using the same basis that they reject in speech, women need help from men but are too stupid to realize what they are doing.

    Quote
    It is honour and duty to women that puts women into brackets that need protection because you have a duty to, for your honour and theirs.  This is especially relevant since the OP (no longer with us) wants to address this to men.  You aren't changing their view of women and this so called duty to them that is attached to honour, and breaking that is better than creating a new sense of duty and honour that rests upon your view of women needing men to give them the freedom to take it off. 


    It is an delusion which enables people to propagate and enact they very thing they are supposedly against all while being obvious to it.

    Quote
    It is women that need to learn the strength to take it off.  Men granting women anything out of duty/honour, is no change of the deeply embedded gender hierarchy that exist, if women themselves still require men to grant them freedoms.


    It is merely relabeling a stereotype and sex based relationship that already exists but uses nicer words thus fools people into thinking they are doing something good.
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