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 Topic: Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America

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  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #240 - November 11, 2016, 07:32 PM
    Quote from: zeca on November 11, 2016, 11:04 AM
    Kenan Malik - How America got Trumped


    That's a very good article that I pretty much entirely agree with.
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #241 - November 11, 2016, 09:33 PM
    Thanks Bogart and Asbudsup. But does anyone have a definitive list of how over-represented or otherwise, each state is in relation to their populations?

    And good article:
    The Economist | America’s new president: The Trump era http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21709951-his-victory-threatens-old-certainties-about-america-and-its-role-world-what-will-take?frsc=dg%7Cd
    Hi
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #242 - November 11, 2016, 11:28 PM
    Quote from: yeezevee on November 06, 2016, 10:20 AM
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bi_QzQQT_pA
    Dr Zakir Naik .,  Donald trump 2016 and Islam .,
    Sure Dr Zakir Naik will be leader of 1.0 billion Muslims (IF NOT ALL MUSLIMS) in the  next 4 years or so.,    if AMRIKA elects Dump as their president

    Islamo Fascist Zakir Naik criticizing anti-Muslim Donald Trump is a joke. At least Trump doesn't advocate death penalty for a Christian apostate or converting to other religion. Zakir Naik openly advocates death penalty for Muslim apostates.
    वासुदैव कुटुम्बकम्
    Entire World is One Family
    سارا سنسار ايک پريوار ہے
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #243 - November 12, 2016, 12:06 AM
    Quote from: musivore on November 11, 2016, 09:33 PM
    Thanks Bogart and Asbudsup. But does anyone have a definitive list of how over-represented or otherwise, each state is in relation to their populations?

    And good article:
    The Economist | America’s new president: The Trump era http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21709951-his-victory-threatens-old-certainties-about-america-and-its-role-world-what-will-take?frsc=dg%7Cd


    Nowadays they are not really overrepresented relative to their populations, except that small states are slightly better represented.  Much more serious is that some states are overrepresented in influence relative to whether they are a 'battleground' state that might swing one way or another.  California, my own state, basically is meaningless since it's a captive Dem state.  Your vote means nothing here.

    Back in the day, it was different.  The electoral college was instituted because of slavery.  The South wanted to get more votes, and since each slave was a 3/5 person for counting the population, but could not have voted in a direct election, it was a way of basically accommodating that problem.  Once you got rid of that, the electoral college system basically became a block voting system.

    Nowadays the electoral college is not a particularly terrible system (only in marginal cases does it make any difference, relative to the popular vote, and there's nothing inherently sacred about a 50% +1 voting percent anyways), and it is relatively evenly weighted towards both parties.  Mass direct voting has its own problems that people often minimize or forget about (for example, multiple candidates mean a less popular candidate with well under 50% of the vote can win.  You can have a run-off, but that has its own problems).  Parliamentary politics are often even stranger, with weird and unpredictable coalition politics determining who is the nation's leader. 

    Good article that clarifies misconceptions about the electoral college system:

    http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-amar-electoral-college-explainer-20161007-snap-story.html
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #244 - November 12, 2016, 12:16 AM
    Quote from: musivore on November 11, 2016, 09:33 PM
    And good article:
    The Economist | America’s new president: The Trump era http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21709951-his-victory-threatens-old-certainties-about-america-and-its-role-world-what-will-take?frsc=dg%7Cd


    That article gets one thing right that I've seen a lot of pro-globalization proponents (on the right and left) miss.  It is often argued that populist voters "are hurting themselves the most" by opposing free immigration and free trade.  In fact most of the populace has received no measurable economic advantage, for decades now, from these supposedly-necessary policies--unlike the economy as a whole, from a GDP standpoint.  They are thus perfectly rational in concluding that these shifts are not, in any way, designed to benefit their own class, nor do they actually benefit it (except in terms of decreasing consumer prices on imported products).

    "This is powered partly by the fact that ordinary Americans have not shared in their country’s prosperity. In real terms median male earnings are still lower than they were in the 1970s. In the past 50 years, barring the expansion of the 1990s, middle-ranking households have taken longer to claw back lost income with each recession. Social mobility is too low to hold out the promise of something better. The resulting loss of self-respect is not neutralised by a few quarters of rising wages."

    Why should these people believe anything they are told about how globalization is absolutely necessary for their own benefit?  It's never been true before, for decades, and it's certainly not likely to prove true now.

    Even if the economy cannot be returned to its old form, increasingly few voters seem to accept that the Hegelian laws of history mandate that they resign themselves to accepting ever-decreasing economic prospects, relative to heavily stratified urban centers.  The Economist admits that globalization has not delivered:  "Recently Western democracies have done too little to spread the benefits of prosperity. Politicians and pundits took the acquiescence of the disillusioned for granted."  But so far nobody has been able to articulate a realistic and credible plan about how such democracies even could deliver.  Talk has been cheap and plentiful, cultural battles there have been aplenty, but economic results remain non-existent for the majority of the population.  Thus it's no surprise that voters on the right and left alike have concluded the system they 'must' support (for reasons economic and moral) is in fact irreparably corrupt, is designed to exploit them, and should be smashed.
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #245 - November 12, 2016, 12:25 AM
    Any thoughts on this as an analysis of Trump's support? The title isn't really representative of the article.

    How half of America lost its f**cking mind
    Which side are you on?
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #246 - November 12, 2016, 12:47 AM
    Speaking of analyses, here's one that's been doing the rounds on left-ish Twitter. What it describes is a hapless failure of political triangulation masquerading as a meaningful presidential campaign - while interesting, I don't know enough about US politics to figure out how seriously to take it. If I may jump on here - what do you make of it, its obvious hyperbole aside?

    How you lost the world.
    Before it gets too late, you will find escape.
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #247 - November 12, 2016, 12:54 AM
    As far as fascism goes I think Trump may turn out to be more of a Berlusconi than a Mussolini. Apart from that I don't know much about US politics either.
    Which side are you on?
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #248 - November 12, 2016, 01:18 AM
    Quote from: zeca on November 12, 2016, 12:25 AM
    Any thoughts on this as an analysis of Trump's support? The title isn't really representative of the article.

    How half of America lost its f**cking mind


    It's a pretty good article.  For much of rural America, there is a somewhat surreal divide between their reality and that of the blue urban centers.  Each side tends to reduce the other to a caricature that largely represents a way to validate their own preoccupations.

    The article is correct about one point that I think is commonly misunderstood--the nature of rural prejudice is that it tends to be based primarily on behaving *differently*, not just being different in the abstract.  This tends to be a big principle in American life more generally, if you can prove you are different than a negative stereotype (e.g. Obama, Oprah, etc.), the majority of people will accept it.  Difference is rarely seen as immutable when it comes to individuals, though it is commonly seen as ineradicable when it comes to group identities.  Thus people who display intense prejudice towards blacks as a group nonetheless are perfectly okay with individual blacks that prove to behave like them (checking key markers like education, job, car, religion).

    100% agree on Trump being another Berlusconi, a blustering and offensive buffoon, I've said that for a long time now, just as I've said that Hillary was basically Richard Nixon reincarnated in female form.
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #249 - November 12, 2016, 01:20 AM
    Quote from: bogart on November 11, 2016, 06:43 PM
    Which is democracy of the states as per the American systems. The people still vote but there is not national popular vote. Their votes are within their state. The state then votes according to it's population, usually.

    Which is a parliament system.


    Parliamentary system notwithstanding the electoral college system is broken.

    Democracy of the states, is a principle that probably died with the Civil War in 1865. Since then Federalism has been a very tenuous and eroding principle, made more and more obsolete with time. For all intents and purposes the modern US operates as a Unitary Constitutional Republic. The electoral vote violates the democratic principle of 1 person 1 vote, and for the head of state of a so called democracy this is completely unacceptable.

    Edit: Lol I swear, even when we're disagreeing we largely agree. Your next post, which I hadn't read before posting, more insightfully echoes my sentiments here.
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #250 - November 12, 2016, 01:46 AM
    Quote from: musivore on November 10, 2016, 10:49 PM
    Are Southern states over-represented? Is the number of electoral seats that a state has, proportional roughly with its population?


    Currently the population of southern states is growing faster than that of northern states. If they are over-represented by the electoral college, it's not a particularly large effect and it is shrinking over time as their populations grow.

    What is rather egregious, is that tiny population states out in the mountain regions: Montana, Wyoming, North Dakota, South Dakota and Alaska all have 3 electoral votes (as does DC, which by the way, the predominantly black residents of which get no Congressional representation, because Democracy). These 3 votes are not proportional with the size of these states, as the 3 votes (2 for their Senate representation, 1 for their House representation) are given to them simply because they qualify as states. To make the example as extreme as possible, let's imagine a circumstance in which I am the only citizen of the state of Wyoming. I would then determine 3 of the 538 electoral votes for the president. In actual fact, I think a Wyoming voter has over twice as much proportional voting power for the president as a California voter.

    Oh yeah, those 5 mountain states I mentioned, they all happen to be disproportionately white, and safe Republican states each election. You can throw in some of the other smallest states into the mix too as safe Republican states, like Idaho, Nebraska, West Virginia and you begin to get the picture. So yeah...
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #251 - November 12, 2016, 11:56 AM
    Editing this response. It reflected an early morning sense of optimism I'm not sure my caffeinated mind still agrees with.
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #252 - November 12, 2016, 04:13 PM
    Honestly, I dont believe in electing Mr. X to political office itself because it endorses the idea that people cant fight for their own battles on their own or be an active participant in governing their community or society  but look for someone else to cede their power and agency for them to do that. Its even absurd to begin with, talkess of giving ourselves a nightless sleep on what went wrong in US presidential election hence my apathy to "democratic" elections in general.
    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #253 - November 12, 2016, 05:37 PM
    Quote from: asbie on November 12, 2016, 01:20 AM
    Parliamentary system notwithstanding the electoral college system is broken.


    It is not a federal system it is a state system. This is it's weakness as states decide how it works.

    Quote
    Democracy of the states, is a principle that probably died with the Civil War in 1865.


    It was the cause of the Civil War and did die as a result of the war.

    Quote
    Since then Federalism has been a very tenuous and eroding principle, made more and more obsolete with time. For all intents and purposes the modern US operates as a Unitary Constitutional Republic. The electoral vote violates the democratic principle of 1 person 1 vote, and for the head of state of a so called democracy this is completely unacceptable.
     


    It does not eliminate 1 to 1 votes as this was never implemented. To eliminate something it must already exist within the system, it didn't. States determine who could vote not the federal government. As I said this system was never updated to work with the changing conditions on the "ground".

    Quote
    Edit: Lol I swear, even when we're disagreeing we largely agree. Your next post, which I hadn't read before posting, more insightfully echoes my sentiments here.


    We are not disagreeing that the system is flawed. I am just pointing out your basis is incorrect as you are claiming America supported ideas it never did. These ideas are a based fantasy propaganda of an idealized America rather than a reality and history of America. It is a facade, nothing more
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #254 - November 12, 2016, 05:40 PM
    Quote from: musivore on November 11, 2016, 09:33 PM
    Thanks Bogart and Asbudsup. But does anyone have a definitive list of how over-represented or otherwise, each state is in relation to their populations?

    And good article:
    The Economist | America’s new president: The Trump era http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21709951-his-victory-threatens-old-certainties-about-america-and-its-role-world-what-will-take?frsc=dg%7Cd


    Just look up the electorate system on wiki then look for a population census. Divide population by electorate votes.
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #255 - November 12, 2016, 08:16 PM
    Democrat strategy, from here



    Which side are you on?
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #256 - November 12, 2016, 10:08 PM
    Quote from: bogart on November 12, 2016, 05:37 PM
    We are not disagreeing that the system is flawed. I am just pointing out your basis is incorrect as you are claiming America supported ideas it never did. These ideas are a based fantasy propaganda of an idealized America rather than a reality and history of America. It is a facade, nothing more


    I'm not claiming that those ideas have historical precedence, rather that democratic principles are what is commonly believed to be at the core of American government. With the example of the Electoral College for instance, this sham could at least seem tenable, as it was a very rare occurrence over more than 2 centuries for the electoral college to overrule the choice of the plurality of voters. Now that we have seen it happen twice within the span of two decades, it is likely that there will be significant call for reform. And the history of the United States is one in which individual democratic rights have (albeit slowly) been expanded, from a beginning in which only property holding, white men could vote, into what there is now. Slow work, but it can be said there has been a current moving in the right direction throughout American history. The electoral college is very logical as the next blatantly undemocratic institution that ought to fall.
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #257 - November 12, 2016, 10:11 PM
    Quote from: zeca on November 12, 2016, 08:16 PM
    Democrat strategy, from here

    (Clicky for piccy!)


    Holy fuck. I mean many of us thought this already, but to see it written out so bald faced like this... wacko
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #258 - November 12, 2016, 10:12 PM
    Quote from: zeca on November 12, 2016, 08:16 PM
    Democrat strategy, from here

    (Clicky for piccy!)




    They seem to have accomplished these goals perfectly, but then forgot the 'win the election' conclusion of their strategy.
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #259 - November 12, 2016, 11:08 PM
    Quote from: zeca on November 12, 2016, 08:16 PM
    (Clicky for piccy!)


    Holy self own, Batman.
    Before it gets too late, you will find escape.
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #260 - November 13, 2016, 12:37 AM
    Quote from: zeca on November 12, 2016, 08:16 PM
    Democrat strategy, from here

    (Clicky for piccy!)


    We all want our opposition parties to elect unelectable leaders. I celebrated like Ronaldo when Michael Howard, and Hague and IDS took the helm for the evil-doers over here. I suspect those same evil-doers did the same, twice, when Corbyn was given the right to fuck up the centre-left for a decade.

    But I'm not convinced that one party can have the necessary influence and control needed to facilitate the opposition going down any one particular dead-end. Sure, it may be preferential to them. But, I feel it was more a case of watching them being swept down an unstoppable tide, and then quite enjoying the spectacle.

    And to then go ahead and lose to that same unelectable opposition that you've prayed and hoped for? Well, the analysis of that particular fuck-up will go on for decades, and we all seem to be painstakingly putting the pieces of the jigsaw together on here also.
    Hi
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #261 - November 13, 2016, 11:58 AM
    David Chappelle on Saturday Night Live discussing Trump win.

    https://youtu.be/JP6uZiPDQ5k
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #262 - November 13, 2016, 12:57 PM
    I am in a shock  and i often wonder what i wrote in to the forum fed American votes in to dump box...so I am going to stop  writing  against faiths ...   may be stop writing all   together in the forums.,  Indeed the most  powerful country of the globe elected a clown as  its president ..



    But that is how democracy works it is  a number game

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcmmJqRbRbQ

    well  that is Sam Harris from US of A.. Now I am very certain ., the reason Trump won because Americans are ASS HOLES  .. they can not stand women in power.,they are as good as Islamic mullahs who force  women in to burqas

    I hope and I wish Mr.Trump proves every body wrong including those who voted for him.,  The best way to do that is  .. SHUT UP AND PLAY GOLF for next 4 years..

    and I am sorry Mr. Sam Harris ., I disagree with you w.r.t  Bernie Sanders..
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #263 - November 13, 2016, 01:06 PM
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nm72wn3QFIs

    that is interesting
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #264 - November 13, 2016, 01:09 PM
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0X4epmPrck
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #265 - November 13, 2016, 06:45 PM
    Quote from: asbie on November 12, 2016, 10:08 PM
    I'm not claiming that those ideas have historical precedence, rather that democratic principles are what is commonly believed to be at the core of American government. With the example of the Electoral College for instance, this sham could at least seem tenable, as it was a very rare occurrence over more than 2 centuries for the electoral college to overrule the choice of the plurality of voters. Now that we have seen it happen twice within the span of two decades, it is likely that there will be significant call for reform. And the history of the United States is one in which individual democratic rights have (albeit slowly) been expanded, from a beginning in which only property holding, white men could vote, into what there is now. Slow work, but it can be said there has been a current moving in the right direction throughout American history. The electoral college is very logical as the next blatantly undemocratic institution that ought to fall.


    A lot of Americans have strange ideas about democracy. Many treat all forms of democracy as a direct form of democracy. Many are taught nostalgia mixed with propaganda about American history. Sure the system is flawed but at the heart of this flawed system is a misinformed and/or delusional population. 
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #266 - November 13, 2016, 08:27 PM
    Very true bogart. And then there are the fuckers who will correct you when you might off-hand mention that America is a democratic country and instead proudly declare "No it's not, it's a Republic!" You hear these people in America bogart, they actually exist.  banghead
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #267 - November 13, 2016, 08:43 PM
    Quote from: ibn Bilal on November 13, 2016, 11:58 AM
    David Chappelle on Saturday Night Live discussing Trump win.

    https://youtu.be/JP6uZiPDQ5k


    It's good to see him back after all these years.  Smiley
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #268 - November 13, 2016, 09:43 PM
    well his so called wall is now going to be part fence now. that's the latest. I bet it will be a combination of 2 by 4 and some chicken wire. I honestly can't see this being built. And I don't think he'll stop muslims coming in either. he just said it to win the votes. that's ma penny's worth.
  • Donald Trump wants to ban Muslims from America
     Reply #269 - November 14, 2016, 03:15 AM
    Quote from: asbie on November 13, 2016, 08:27 PM
    Very true bogart. And then there are the fuckers who will correct you when you might off-hand mention that America is a democratic country and instead proudly declare "No it's not, it's a Republic!" You hear these people in America bogart, they actually exist.  banghead


    Which only demonstrates they can not tell the difference between the form of government, republic, with the method of placing people in office, democratic. It is amusing to see people rush to display how uneducated they are. A simple response would be to ask what is the different between the USSR (the R is republic) and the USA in regards to how it's leaders gain their office. They will refute their own claim in such a response. Followup with a smirk then roll your eyes.
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