Hitting the wife wtf

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- AGirlWithDoubts
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Hitting the wife wtf
Reply #30 - December 12, 2015, 01:09 AM

Ugh, he belongs in a jail cell. An abuser can't be reasoned with, unfortunately
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Reply #31 - December 12, 2015, 02:04 AM

Honestly yeah. I'm not sure what exactly I'd do in your circumstance ExMuslimVlogGuy, but calling the cops does come to mind.

Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
how fuck works without shit??

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Reply #32 - December 12, 2015, 02:22 AM

Or thrown through a closed window.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #33 - December 12, 2015, 03:46 AM

Quote from: ExMuslimVlogGuy on December 11, 2015, 10:37 AM
I just had this discussion about hitting the wife with a nice muslim guy. He said he does it without leaving bruises on his wife.

I told him about all the different interpretations of the 4:34 from the Quran (which It gives Muslims permission to hit their wives) and he kept telling me that if he didn't hit his wife, she would have divorced him by now..

I'm now trying to convince him that any kind of abuse is irrational.. And that even though he thinks that divorce is evil, he should never resort to beating his wife.

He insists that hitting her without leaving a mark/bruise is ok.. I'm trying my best to convince him otherwise..

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

You have to give up. You have a man here who is using religion to act out his base desires.
The only way you can get through to such a neanderthal is to get him to accept that his wife is entitled to human rights. He obviously does not currently accept this.
If he does, however, believe that men and women are equal in Islam then perhaps realizing that his wife can beat him for disobedience would help. That works with some progressives who take that one passage on equality (The believing men and the believing women...) and think it applies to every passage in Quran.

Don't let Hitler have the street.
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Reply #34 - December 12, 2015, 03:51 AM

Quote from: mosster on December 11, 2015, 05:03 PM
That one always got to me. It just blunts reason and that annoys me.

Just yesterday, when things opened up, in a discussion between me and my agnostic friend, a muslim lady says "What are we accomplishing with these discussions? Everyone is going to have their own perspective and eventually this discussion will turn into an argument.".

I've noticed religious people have knack for discouraging reasoning and discussion of uncomfortable topics (The topic we were discussing was hell and inhuman fury of gods).

On Topic:
I was having this discussion with some relatives. They present the usual argument of "it's just lightly" etc. I say why doesn't it provide the same provision for a woman. Can she hit lightly back? I don't care if it's lightly or hard, my problem is that it explicitly provisions one but not the other. To this, I got a double whammy of misogyny (and that too from coming from a woman) that:

"It's in her interest that she shouldn't hit him because it could make him furious and he could hurt her really bad as he can overpower her. Allah knows whats best for her".
Holy bananas. What do you think is wrong with that sort of reasoning?

Nothing is wrong with that sort of reasoning. It is true.
If a female hits me in the face I might bruise. If a man hits me in the face he can break my facial bones. My facial bones are smaller than his and his fist and his muscular build is that much stronger.
She knows what she is talking about. Challenging a man who insists on obedience is not safe.
Women should get out of relationships that are abusive, not fight back or try to apply the verse in the reverse gender.
Women have a right to life.

Don't let Hitler have the street.
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Reply #35 - December 12, 2015, 03:53 AM

Quote from: Cornflower on December 11, 2015, 06:59 PM
How does hitting your wife prevent her from divorcing you? If it's not about intimidating and threatening her into staying with her. I mean, if you beat her when she bring up the topic, what would you actually do if she went through with it?

Trauma bonding is very effective.

Don't let Hitler have the street.
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Reply #36 - December 12, 2015, 03:55 AM

Quote from: ExMuslimVlogGuy on December 12, 2015, 01:05 AM
He hits her. He told me openly. The sad thing was that a non-muslim jumped in the discussion and said it's "technically not abuse" since it's mentioned as a last resort rather than a first resort.

The intellect of some people..

Anyway, he kept saying "in the bigger picture of life, there are justifiable measures to resort to in order to prevent divorce."

I just feel abnormal after that discussion. Makes me sick. People look for an excuse to hit women. Muslim and non-Muslim alike.

Getting hit with a load of misogyny sometimes does that to a person. Get a glass of water and take your vitamins. Take a friend out to dinner.

Don't let Hitler have the street.
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Reply #37 - December 12, 2015, 03:57 AM

That's a good way of putting it, three.

I might try that approach next time.. Thanks for the support guys.

I grew up witnessing domestic abuse by friends and family that were male. I never expected them to act the way they did, as it scarred me for life. So I am passionate about it..

"If you don't like your religion's fundamentalists, then maybe there's something wrong with your religion's fundamentals."
"Demanding blind respect but not offering any respect in reciprocation is laughable."
"Let all the people in all the worlds be in peace."
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Reply #38 - December 12, 2015, 04:00 AM

Always nice to find a team player.

Don't let Hitler have the street.
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Reply #39 - December 12, 2015, 04:13 AM

Quote from: three on December 12, 2015, 03:51 AM
Nothing is wrong with that sort of reasoning. It is true.

Yes, I respected that argument. But then my relative now thinks that he's refuted my argument and that Allah indeed knows the best!

The illiterate of the 21st century will not be those who cannot read and write, but those that cannot learn, unlearn, and relearn. - Alvin Toffler
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Reply #40 - December 12, 2015, 08:05 AM

Quote
Yes, I respected that argument. But then my relative now thinks that he's refuted my argument and that Allah indeed knows the best!

Wait a minute, you respected that argument? Like what?

That argument is no defense against wife-beating.

The verse is fucked up to begin with. There is no saving it. Physical abuse is never right, men or women.

The solution is to discard the verse, not to justify it.
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Reply #41 - December 12, 2015, 10:41 AM

Quote from: Helaine on December 12, 2015, 08:05 AM
.......................

That argument is no defense against wife-beating.

The verse is fucked up to begin with. .................

The solution is not to discard the verse, not to justify it.

Not only that verse from that religious book... 100s of verses in many religious books including Quran are fucked up..

THESE STUPID BOOKS WRITTEN SOME 1000s OF YEARS AGO BY SOME STUPID CAVE DWELLERS CAN NOT BE WORD OF ALLAH/GOD/ WHATEVER DICKHEAD THEY HAD IN THEIR MINDS TO CONTROL THE SOCIETY AROUND THOSE NOMADS OF THE TIME..

at best you can make some lullaby rhyming sounds to put little kids to sleep from these silly books..

look at these
Quote

Corinthians 11:8 For man did not come from woman, but woman from man;

Corinthians 11:9 neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.

14:34. women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says
.
14:35. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church

Peter 3:1 Likewise, wives, be in subjection to your own husbands, so that, even if some refuse to believe and obey the word of God, they will be won over without a word, because of the behavior of the wives.

Peter 3:5-6 For in the same way, the holy wives of former times, whose hope was towards God, also adorned themselves, being in subjection to their own husbands; just as Sarah submissively obeyed Abraham calling him, “Lord, who owns me”; whose spiritual child you became when you began doing what was right and were absolutely not afraid of any terror.

sure you can get such nonsense from many so-called religious books .. Quran/islam is no exception to that rule.. Fools of 21st century throw their commonsense out of the window and believe in some alleged silly religious sayings of some cave dweller when human race is sending their vehicles to millions of miles-out out of this galaxy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9SjjcHd1Ec

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQ91AxUqHck

.....MOCK THE FOOLS AND MOVE ON.....

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
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Hitting the wife wtf
Reply #42 - December 12, 2015, 03:09 PM

Quote from: Helaine on December 12, 2015, 08:05 AM
Wait a minute, you respected that argument? Like what?

That argument is no defense against wife-beating.

The verse is fucked up to begin with. There is no saving it. Physical abuse is never right, men or women.

The solution is to discard the verse, not to justify it.

You said it! American scholar Hamza Yusuf said it doesn't mean "strike her" as in "hit her" it means "strike her with an arrogant pose." Meaning that you stand tall. lol. Even that doesn't make sense.

Nothing makes sense in that verse no matter the spin you put on it!

"If you don't like your religion's fundamentalists, then maybe there's something wrong with your religion's fundamentals."
"Demanding blind respect but not offering any respect in reciprocation is laughable."
"Let all the people in all the worlds be in peace."
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Reply #43 - December 12, 2015, 04:15 PM

Strike a pose!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuJQSAiODqI
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Reply #44 - December 12, 2015, 04:21 PM

"If you don't like your religion's fundamentalists, then maybe there's something wrong with your religion's fundamentals."
"Demanding blind respect but not offering any respect in reciprocation is laughable."
"Let all the people in all the worlds be in peace."
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Hitting the wife wtf
Reply #45 - December 12, 2015, 07:57 PM

Quote from: ExMuslimVlogGuy on December 12, 2015, 01:05 AM
He hits her. He told me openly. The sad thing was that a non-muslim jumped in the discussion and said it's "technically not abuse" since it's mentioned as a last resort rather than a first resort.

The intellect of some people..

Anyway, he kept saying "in the bigger picture of life, there are justifiable measures to resort to in order to prevent divorce."

I just feel abnormal after that discussion. Makes me sick. People look for an excuse to hit women. Muslim and non-Muslim alike.

Well, according to my partner, who is something of an expert on the matter. Hitting your wife isn't necessarily abuse, it's assault. Abuse needs other kinds of actions attached to the assault. Also it's possible to be abusive without using actual violence.
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Reply #46 - December 12, 2015, 08:03 PM

Quote from: three on December 12, 2015, 03:51 AM
Nothing is wrong with that sort of reasoning. It is true.
If a female hits me in the face I might bruise. If a man hits me in the face he can break my facial bones. My facial bones are smaller than his and his fist and his muscular build is that much stronger.
She knows what she is talking about. Challenging a man who insists on obedience is not safe.
Women should get out of relationships that are abusive, not fight back or try to apply the verse in the reverse gender.
Women have a right to life.

Well, yes. The problem is that, by this time you've probably been convinced you have no self worth and you are useless without the abusive partner.
http://www.freedomprogramme.co.uk/
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Reply #47 - December 12, 2015, 08:14 PM

Quote from: Rob on December 12, 2015, 07:57 PM
Well, according to my partner, who is something of an expert on the matter. Hitting your wife isn't necessarily abuse, it's assault. Abuse needs other kinds of actions attached to the assault. Also it's possible to be abusive without using actual violence.

I understand it from that context. But would your partner agree that when a Muslim husband has this verse to rely on for the rest of his life with his wife (whom he never divorces because he relies on putting her in check), that it counts as abuse? Emotional and physical?

I understand the action of just hitting someone isn't technically abuse in general.. But when you put it in the context of a relationship between a man and wife, it's a little different. Like someone mentioned earlier, Trauma Bonding.

"If you don't like your religion's fundamentalists, then maybe there's something wrong with your religion's fundamentals."
"Demanding blind respect but not offering any respect in reciprocation is laughable."
"Let all the people in all the worlds be in peace."
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Reply #48 - December 12, 2015, 08:47 PM

I don't think the hitting is the important part. If the wife isn't being hit, and the reason for that is because she's doing everything her husband wants, that doesn't sound like a particularly full and equal relationship. The whole relationship seems abusive to me, even without the violence.
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Reply #49 - December 12, 2015, 09:16 PM

Exactly, that's where I'm getting at. The whole relationship is based on abuse because "God sent this down."

However, we do have to acknowledge the violent part where hitting is involved. It is part of the abuse process.

I can't look into every single Muslim household, but I do think more hitting is involved more than we typically think.

I don't have empirical statistics, but just seeing so many western muslim women vent their problems on forums, I can't help but see that.. They may not mention it because of being ashamed to mention it. Islam does teach to not mention all of the marital problems in public.

"If you don't like your religion's fundamentalists, then maybe there's something wrong with your religion's fundamentals."
"Demanding blind respect but not offering any respect in reciprocation is laughable."
"Let all the people in all the worlds be in peace."
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Reply #50 - December 13, 2015, 02:26 AM

Quote from: Rob on December 12, 2015, 08:03 PM
Well, yes. The problem is that, by this time you've probably been convinced you have no self worth and you are useless without the abusive partner.
http://www.freedomprogramme.co.uk/

I would be aware of that. The technical term is Battered Person Syndrome. I had it for a long time.
Sometimes, though, when you hit the bottom you finally realize you have to claw your way out of it. Sometimes nothing else wakes you up more than realizing you are perceiving yourself through your partner´s eyes- and it isn´t pretty.
The stages before that just sort of slide on by, for some of us.
And assault in a relationship is abuse. Because it is abusive. Because it is a violation of human rights in a close relationship, not a random punch on the street from a stranger. So though I do respect your partner and their opinion, I respectfully disagree on this point.

Don't let Hitler have the street.
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