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Theme Changer

 Topic: I formally resign from the umma

 (Read 5407 times)
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  • I formally resign from the umma
     OP - December 11, 2015, 05:06 PM

    Hello friends,

    I should start by saying that even though my profile says New Member (didn't feel ready to say ex-Muslim) I am in fact an ex-Muslim. That is, if one is to believe that the Quran is the literal word of God, then I can't accept that based upon the available evidence and my conscience. I don't think God writes books (there's more to it of course). If one must accept that Muhammad was the messenger of God (that he even said that or that he even existed as per traditional Islamic historical narratives) then I cannot accept this.

    A little about me: I'm 37 and of Chechen origin/ethnicity. I've been in and out of being a practicing Muslim since the age of 11 (couple of years on and couple years off at a time). I experimented with Salafism (that only lasted three months because I found it as intellectually and spiritually stimulating as a brick), then tablighi jamaat (that lasted 37 days, was supposed to be on a 40 day stint but the TJs made the Salafis seem like Oxbridge dons in comparison). The Salafi and TJ experiment was around the age of 18 to 19 (whilst at uni). Then I was briefly an Ikhwan fellow traveller until my final year at uni. In my final year I'd had enough of it all and went back to being a cultural Muslim (and enjoying my life: music, drugs, travelling basically happy days!).

    Fast forward to my early 30s. I got the 'spiritual' itch again. To scratch that itch, I didn't want to go back into mainstream, pharisaical Sunni Islam and so I decided to get me a hit of tariqah. So I became a murid of Shaykh Nazim Haqqani. That actually lasted about a year but I dropped out of that too (although it was more satisfying personally than Salafism or Deobandism, which is what the TJs are in essence). Ultimately, the promise of spiritual renewal via a 'heart connection' with Shaykh Nazim was a chimera (my polite way of saying bullshit).

    Finally, last orders from the Islamic pub was Twelver Shiism. I got into 12er teachings because I was reading a hell of a lot of Islamic history, especially about the various wars that kicked off straight after Muhammad's passing. Just to clarify, it wasn't Tijani or any of the other modern Shi'i polemics pedalled by the likes of al-islam.org. At this point I only trusted orientalist scholarship (actual scholarship as opposed to theology masquerading as scholarship). I was in Karbala and Mashhad earlier this year as it goes. My disillusionment with 12er thought was tied to the utter implausibility of the existence and theory of the hidden Imam (4 dudes only had contact with him, produced no work of fiqh or hadith but found time to take people's khums money).

    However, I'm really grateful to the 12ers for keeping alive philosophy within the Islamic world. Thanks to Mir Damad and Mullah Sadra I developed a genuine taste for Descarters, Spinoza, Hobbes, Hume, Hegel, Kant (he's bloody hard work I find) etc. These days I'm reading a hell of a lot of Marx (he's my main man at the moment). Actually my user name is that of a Tatar bolshevik. Sultan-Galiev was an atheist but felt that just charging in and forcing Muslims into atheism at the point of a bayonet wasn't going to work (I think his point still stands). There would need to be a gradual de-sacrilization of Islam (that's a very crude summary btw). Poor chap was topped by Stalin.

    Anyhow, I'm now free from performing mental hoops justifying slavery, the total objectification of women, female sex slaves, child marriage, marital rape, the second class treatment of ahlul dhimma, holy war, infinite punishment for finite actions etc (the usual heinousness that I think everyone here had a problem with).

    I'm very lucky in that I don't really have to fear my family. They're a very liberal bunch (alhamdu li joe pesci to paraphrase George Carlin). Mum was actually like the second Chechen woman to go to Moscow Sate Uni (back when it was relatively bribe free and provided a top notch education, late 60s basically). Dad has always paid lip service to being Muslim but refuses to pray (everyone, myself included, always suspected him of being a naughty atheist). Plus Dad has always loved vodka and always has pet dogs (lovely creatures btw even though I'm a fanatical cat dude).

    Mum, bless her, is religious but not as much as she thinks she is. Like she does namaz and fasts and eats halal but that's it really. She doesn't care for reading hadith or much Quran for that matter. Pretty much all her friends are not Muslim (she admitted that she doesn't like the company of most Muslims and especially Chechens, says they're pretty primitive people intellectually speaking). Now that she's getting on a bit she finds great comfort and solace in prayer, so I figure leave her to it. She doesn't bust my balls about prayer or praxis in general so you know lakum deenakum waliyadeen I figure. If someone finds comfort in an illusion and they don't go about enforcing their illusion on others, it seems a bit mean to wrench it away from them.

    In terms of a deity, organised religion, the meaning of life etc then I think The Dude (aka Shaykh Jeff Lebowski) said it best: Yeah? Well, you know, that's just like, your opinion, man!

    Peace and love my beloved infidels (and non ball busting Muhammedans)
  • I formally resign from the umma
     Reply #1 - December 11, 2015, 05:48 PM

    Welcome Sultan parrot

    I read the whole thing, and I can relate to you with the Salafi and Tablighi Jamat stint. I went through all types within the fold of Sunni Islam.

    I never got into Shia Twelver Islam or the Snake Nazim thing. They just seemed too much of a scam to me.

    When you have liberal Muslim parents, you get tempted to try all sorts of stuff. haha.

    I'm aware that people who get rid of religion sometimes get a "spiritual itch" later In their lives. I pray to the Universe it doesn't happen to me again.   yes

    "If you don't like your religion's fundamentalists, then maybe there's something wrong with your religion's fundamentals."
    "Demanding blind respect but not offering any respect in reciprocation is laughable."
    "Let all the people in all the worlds be in peace."
  • I formally resign from the umma
     Reply #2 - December 11, 2015, 06:06 PM

    Thanks bro.

    I too hope that the itch doesn't come back (it would really be intellectual regression).

  • I formally resign from the umma
     Reply #3 - December 11, 2015, 06:16 PM

    But I'd also like to clarify that these spiritual enlightenments that happen to people later in life can help them.

    There's a lot of depressed people in the world, and especially after they leave religion, they can start to feel aimless and without purpose.

    I sometimes look to some strands of Hinduism and Buddhism for universal teachings as a mean of encouragement and meditation.. I'm glad peaceful spiritual orders do exist if all their message is to spread peace in the real world.

    But yeah, going back to violent organized religions is a no-no.

    "If you don't like your religion's fundamentalists, then maybe there's something wrong with your religion's fundamentals."
    "Demanding blind respect but not offering any respect in reciprocation is laughable."
    "Let all the people in all the worlds be in peace."
  • I formally resign from the umma
     Reply #4 - December 11, 2015, 06:27 PM

    Yes I think if I were to play with religion again, it would be some form of Eastern philosophy.

    Like you, the God of Abraham is dead to me. I don't want to follow in the footsteps of a man (mythical though he may be) that was prepared to slaughter his own child. There are far more benign pathways (and the inevitable myths attached to them) out there.
  • I formally resign from the umma
     Reply #5 - December 11, 2015, 06:31 PM

    If you get a chance, check out Alan Watts. Someone told me about him when I was in a deep depression.

    He's a westerner who explored many religions, and particularly studied Eastern Philosophy.  He was born in 1915 and died in 1973. A very interesting man who offered me invaluable insight.

    I started to open my mind a lot after listening to him whenever I felt a spiritual vacuum.

    "If you don't like your religion's fundamentalists, then maybe there's something wrong with your religion's fundamentals."
    "Demanding blind respect but not offering any respect in reciprocation is laughable."
    "Let all the people in all the worlds be in peace."
  • I formally resign from the umma
     Reply #6 - December 11, 2015, 06:51 PM

    Googling the chap now. Thanks for the tip  Smiley

    You guessed correct: even though I have it a lot easier (I imagine) than many other ex-Muslims (like I'm not loosing my family or having to pretend to be religious) I do feel a little depressed as a result of making my formal break with Islam. Although I prefer to be with the truth (as much as possible) and unhappy, than happy in my ignorance.
  • I formally resign from the umma
     Reply #7 - December 11, 2015, 07:02 PM

    Welcome! Great intro.  parrot bunny
  • I formally resign from the umma
     Reply #8 - December 11, 2015, 07:19 PM

    Welcome. parrot

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • I formally resign from the umma
     Reply #9 - December 11, 2015, 07:19 PM

    Thanks for the kind words and welcome. I'll be honest, I've been lurking round these boards for a while. That Wahy thread is awesome btw (sincere thanks for the laughs to all those that contributed).
  • I formally resign from the umma
     Reply #10 - December 11, 2015, 07:43 PM

    Who's the best poster?

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • I formally resign from the umma
     Reply #11 - December 11, 2015, 08:12 PM

    A very warm welcome. That was a very good introductory post, please stick around and post a lot more often  Afro

    I experimented with Salafism (that only lasted three months because I found it as intellectually and spiritually stimulating as a brick), then tablighi jamaat (that lasted 37 days, was supposed to be on a 40 day stint but the TJs made the Salafis seem like Oxbridge dons in comparison).


    ^ Made oi larf.
  • I formally resign from the umma
     Reply #12 - December 11, 2015, 08:13 PM

    Well my two favourite surahs (I need to re-read the whole thread, I'm sure people have added more) were/are Happymurtad's suratul Pirate and Diem's Motor surah (the accompanying tafsir was genius imo).

    The verse of the pirates resonates in particular because basically my mate was on ziarat in Mashhad and, one day, whilst heading to the shrine of Reza he noticed lots of security and a massive convoy of cars, so he asks some random Iranian dude what's going down, the guy replies gruffly: "Wali Amr!" My mate said it sounded like like he was doing a stereotypical pirate accent.

    After that we'd always call Khamenei Wali Amr-oooh aaarrgh or Long John Silver. Then it metastasised into naming all the wilayat faqih mob pirates and the main Islamic Republic husseiniya in London became Treasure Island.

    It's one of those you had to be there things.
  • I formally resign from the umma
     Reply #13 - December 11, 2015, 11:16 PM

    I'm a dawgeh person myself. Parents got a rescue puppy from da pound. Sweetest little animal ever. Except that she loved chocolate and (unlike other dogs) somehow didn't get sick from it... so we had to keep the boxes on the highest shelf.

    As for 'violent' religion, interested in views on the Sikhs here. They are very much warriors, but it seems from my perspective (raised British) they generally only pulled their swords out when someone was attacking them (like the, er, British).

    Welcome MSinghK
  • I formally resign from the umma
     Reply #14 - December 12, 2015, 01:11 AM

    Thanks for the welcome Zimriel.

    I always say this: I love animals, they're good people  Smiley

    Well in terms of violence (religious or otherwise), I'm still split on this. Part of me feels that violence is always wrong, that all life is precious (however much I might dislike that particular life-form, human or otherwise).

    However, another part of me feels that self-defence against unprovoked aggression is justified.

    Justified self-defence: as you pointed out, Sikhs defending themselves against British imperialists (plus Spanish Republicans versus Franco's Falangists, Algerians fighting the French, Viet Cong versus the US, Palestinians versus IDF, Kurds resisting Daesh etc).

    I'd include in that category of justified self-defence, in terms of a broader historical perspective, the Arab pagans and Jews resisting Muhammad and his companions. Not to mention the Byzantines and Sassanids.

    I'm leaning more towards the self-defence argument tbh.
  • I formally resign from the umma
     Reply #15 - December 12, 2015, 01:36 AM

    Welcome! Nice introduction  dance dance

     bunny
  • I formally resign from the umma
     Reply #16 - December 12, 2015, 01:37 AM

    Yeah, there are real cases of justifiable self-defense.

    The Islamic context, or what many imperial religions think as "self-defense", though... are not really self defense  Cheesy
  • I formally resign from the umma
     Reply #17 - December 12, 2015, 03:59 AM

    Welcome!  parrot

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • I formally resign from the umma
     Reply #18 - December 12, 2015, 07:51 AM

    Welcome!  parrot

    Read as much of your intro as I could get my eyes to focus for, sounds a little bit like me and my struggles with bipolar-fueled hyper-religiosity, hopping from religious group to religious group trying to find fulfillment and satisfy my desire for rituals, community, and acceptance.

    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • I formally resign from the umma
     Reply #19 - December 12, 2015, 07:55 AM

     bunny  bunny
  • I formally resign from the umma
     Reply #20 - December 12, 2015, 10:41 AM

    I love animals, they're good people

    Big cats are not good people.
  • I formally resign from the umma
     Reply #21 - December 12, 2015, 03:39 PM

    Welcome to the forum Sultan-Galiev, have a rabbit!  bunny

    You have a very interesting story, I hope to hear more from you!  Smiley

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • I formally resign from the umma
     Reply #22 - December 13, 2015, 02:27 AM

    Big cats are not good people.


    That is true.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • I formally resign from the umma
     Reply #23 - December 13, 2015, 07:59 AM

    Welcome to the forum Sultan Smiley Thanks for sharing your fascinating story with us.

    He's no friend to the friendless
    And he's the mother of grief
    There's only sorrow for tomorrow
    Surely life is too brief
  • I formally resign from the umma
     Reply #24 - December 14, 2015, 05:42 AM

    Big cats are not good people.


    Well, that one time I encountered a sleeping mountain lion in the woods was nice....she was so pretty...if I have to choose which animal to be killed by, it would definitely be a pretty kitty like her.

    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • I formally resign from the umma
     Reply #25 - December 18, 2015, 03:39 PM

    Well my two favourite surahs (I need to re-read the whole thread, I'm sure people have added more) were/are Happymurtad's suratul Pirate and Diem's Motor surah (the accompanying tafsir was genius imo).

    The verse of the pirates resonates in particular because basically my mate was on ziarat in Mashhad and, one day, whilst heading to the shrine of Reza he noticed lots of security and a massive convoy of cars, so he asks some random Iranian dude what's going down, the guy replies gruffly: "Wali Amr!" My mate said it sounded like like he was doing a stereotypical pirate accent.

    After that we'd always call Khamenei Wali Amr-oooh aaarrgh or Long John Silver. Then it metastasised into naming all the wilayat faqih mob pirates and the main Islamic Republic husseiniya in London became Treasure Island.

    It's one of those you had to be there things.


    That’s hilarious, actually. Reminds me of the old Bedouin taxi drivers in Madina who we’d joke always sounded like stereotypical pirates. The average fare to the Prophet’s mosque from most places in the city was about 5 riyals, or 2 riyals a person if there were more than 3 of us. The old Bedouin taxi drivers, one of whom legitimately only had one eye, would try to rip us off by charging double that amount. “Haram? Yallah! Ashra riyal!”   So, we’d joke that they were land pirates and would say, “Ashra riyalll, yaarrrghh!!”

    Again, one of those “you had to be there” sort of deals. Cheesy
  • I formally resign from the umma
     Reply #26 - December 18, 2015, 04:34 PM

    The best type of jokes are the "you had to be there" inside type of jokes. I'm happy for you Grin

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
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