Islam IS Islamism

1« Previous thread | Next thread »
- TheDashingRabbit
- Politics and Literature Junkie
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Islam IS Islamism
OP - December 20, 2015, 09:17 PM

Does there even exist any meaningful distinction between "islam" and "islamism" ? I mean Islam is an inherently political religion. Muhammad wasn't just a religious preacher like Jesus. He was a politician in every sense of the word. I don't think its possible to even have a devout muslim community that doesn't hold theocracy as the ideal.

I get why the term "islamism" is more politically palatable however I think Maajid Nawaz and other muslim reformists are selling a pipe dream when they advocate an islam that respects separation of mosque and state. The Quran ITSELF is an "islamist" document with the hudud punishments it contains not to mention the hadiths with their advocacy of killing apostates.

In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
- yeezevee
- Pub Regular
- offline
Islam IS Islamism
Reply #1 - December 20, 2015, 09:50 PM

Quote from: TheDarkRebel on December 20, 2015, 09:17 PM
Does there even exist any meaningful distinction between "islam" and "islamism" ? I mean Islam is an inherently political religion. ~~Muhammad wasn't just a religious preacher like Jesus~~. ~~He was a politician in every sense of the word~~.

The Muhammad that is described in Quran and in Hadith doesn't Exist And The Jesus that is described New Testament doesn't exist., Hence there was No Jesus and There was No Muhammad.. These are created characters at a later times by rulers and preachers

Again There was NO Muhammad in Islam

Quote
I don't think its possible to even have a devout muslim community that doesn't hold theocracy as the ideal.

I get why the term "islamism" is more politically palatable however I think Maajid Nawaz and other muslim reformists are selling a pipe dream when they advocate an islam that respects separation of mosque and state. The Quran ITSELF is an "islamist" document with the hudud punishments it contains not to mention the hadiths with their advocacy of killing apostates.

True that is one of Muhammad Character from Hadith .. which is often used by Caliphs/Islamic kings and Dick Traitors along with Mullahs / Imams for the sake of loot booty and recent times for political power..

And True... Islam WAS Islamism ..

We can change that by simply hammering to all folks that Quran is NOT a word of allah/god whatever and that goes all religious books and religions that come out of such books .

Make the books irrelevant.. let them have freedom to explore their respective god/allah/gods/goddesses without books., without the support of taxpayers money, without public public funding in THEIR OWN ROOMS ... let them explore their after life.. their spirituality inside their brains..

And.. and let them have freedom to write and says.... Let also others have full freedom to write/say and change their religions as anyone changes underwears..

. Morning one and evening one.. morning one religions and evening other religion...

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- ExMuslimVlogGuy
- Ex-Muslim
- Ex-Super Salafi
- offline
Islam IS Islamism
Reply #2 - December 20, 2015, 11:24 PM

I think a good distinction is made when they say, "Islamists" and "Muslims."

But to say "Islamism" and "Islam" is a tad bit ridiculous. I think it's saying "we don't want to own up to the responsibility of what Islam truly teaches."

"If you don't like your religion's fundamentalists, then maybe there's something wrong with your religion's fundamentals."
"Demanding blind respect but not offering any respect in reciprocation is laughable."
"Let all the people in all the worlds be in peace."
- yeezevee
- Pub Regular
- offline
Islam IS Islamism
Reply #3 - December 20, 2015, 11:40 PM

Quote from: ExMuslimVlogGuy on December 20, 2015, 11:24 PM
I think a good distinction is made when they say, "Islamists" and "Muslims."

But to say "Islamism" and "Islam" is a tad bit ridiculous. I think it's saying "we don't want to own up to the responsibility of what Islam truly teaches."

"Islam teaches many things often confusing and contradicting.. "... If we take the root out and clean the canal and that is "The Book is word of Allah/god".. .. then the pain will disappear..

Afghanistan is a perfect example..

**************************************************************************************

That was Afghanistan in 1960s and 70s....

And with left wing..right wing....rascals.... beards and baboons .. we have this

BUT ISLAM WAS SAME.. And the book was there...............

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- ExMuslimVlogGuy
- Ex-Muslim
- Ex-Super Salafi
- offline
Islam IS Islamism
Reply #4 - December 20, 2015, 11:54 PM

Omg,

Afghanistan looked so nice in the 60s and 70s.. Now it's turned to shit.

Islam ruins everything it touches..

"If you don't like your religion's fundamentalists, then maybe there's something wrong with your religion's fundamentals."
"Demanding blind respect but not offering any respect in reciprocation is laughable."
"Let all the people in all the worlds be in peace."
- lua
- Ex-Muslim
- Grossly Incandescent
- offline
Islam IS Islamism
Reply #5 - December 21, 2015, 12:21 AM

^ I think you missed the point.
- yeezevee
- Pub Regular
- offline
Islam IS Islamism
Reply #6 - December 21, 2015, 12:39 AM

Quote from: lua on December 21, 2015, 12:21 AM
^ I think you missed the point.

Lol.....Well many people miss the point/s I try to highlight dear Lua..

So how are you doing .. Be busy...

With best wishes
Yeezevee..

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- ExMuslimVlogGuy
- Ex-Muslim
- Ex-Super Salafi
- offline
Islam IS Islamism
Reply #7 - December 21, 2015, 02:09 AM

Yeez said it best.

"If you don't like your religion's fundamentalists, then maybe there's something wrong with your religion's fundamentals."
"Demanding blind respect but not offering any respect in reciprocation is laughable."
"Let all the people in all the worlds be in peace."
- lua
- Ex-Muslim
- Grossly Incandescent
- offline
Islam IS Islamism
Reply #8 - December 21, 2015, 02:10 AM

I specifically meant that you missed Yeez's point. Unless you're also telling me to be busy.
- ExMuslimVlogGuy
- Ex-Muslim
- Ex-Super Salafi
- offline
Islam IS Islamism
Reply #9 - December 21, 2015, 02:18 AM

I know what you meant, and I responded that Yeez said it best when he thinks many miss his point. lol.

"If you don't like your religion's fundamentalists, then maybe there's something wrong with your religion's fundamentals."
"Demanding blind respect but not offering any respect in reciprocation is laughable."
"Let all the people in all the worlds be in peace."
- lua
- Ex-Muslim
- Grossly Incandescent
- offline
Islam IS Islamism
Reply #10 - December 21, 2015, 02:32 AM

Gotcha.

Anyway, Rebel, to address your point, yes. There's a functional difference between Islam and Islamism. I think if you look at a lot of my early posts here, you'd see more anger out of me, you'd see me mocking some liberal apologists' attempts to tell me how peaceful Islam is, how it's a beacon for feminism, and whatever else. You'd see me saying that no, this is how Islam is, and to try to deviate from it is intellectually dishonest. But that's a very flat way to look at the problem and to look at the relationship people have with religion in the real world.

The truth is that we shouldn't be sitting here demanding that the liberals adhere to Islam as we think it should've been adhered to. We shouldn't be telling them, "Hey, you can't do that," when they try to make Islam better than it is. It's great fun to imagine that everyone can just wake up one day and religion won't be an issue, but cold turkey isn't humanity's style.

It was tough for me to set aside my emotions on the matter and learn to stop asking how Islam can be reformed and to just learn to thank whatever is or isn't holy that more and more Muslims are trying. They don't need my opinions on whether or not it can be made peaceful. They're moving forward without me, and that's how I want it.

The functional difference is that saying I'm against Islam means I am against it being practiced period. And I shouldn't be if I believe in people's rights to believe whatever the fuck they want to believe. And I do. Saying I'm against Islamism means I'm against Islam working its way into politics. It's saying, "I don't care about the details, and I don't care if it was supposed to be a political system--it's not going to be. And you, the adherent, are going to have to figure it out. It's your problem and your responsibility to keep it from crossing this line and to find out how to practice it peacefully." And, alhamdulillah, so many of them are up for that. How can I complain.
- Absurdist
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Islam IS Islamism
Reply #11 - December 21, 2015, 04:01 AM

You might be convinced that Islam is Islamism because you're so immersed in the culture of Islamism that's widespread today that you can't possibly conceive of a way out. Islamism has had a modern revival since the 80s or so and it has taken over the narrative of Islam. But equating the two is historically revisionist; it makes us look at the history of Islam through the perspective of the modern day rather than look at its wide and diverse history. It's as if we have finally figured out what Islam really is and must look back and judge other periods that are actually not all that Islamic. And that's exactly the intention of Islamists, particularly the Salafi/purist types. They want to erase all of Islamic history and think that only Muhammad's time and the time of the "rightly guided caliphs" are the True Islam, but after that Islam somehow strayed away from the Truth and shouldn't count.

Islamic history is so diverse that it's debatable whether a lot of the so-called "Muslim philosophers" were even Muslim. It really depends on who you ask, even during their own lifetimes. Many were accused of heresy. The same can be said of Islamic societies at large. What is defined as Islam, and what Islamic states have practiced, has changed a lot through time. Ultimately, Islam is a practical religion that seeks the maintenance of the power and influence of Islamic society above all else. For instance, the Ottoman Empire was one of the first states in the world to formally decriminalize sex work and homosexuality, during what was called the Tanzimat period. This survivalist pragmatism is not foreign to Islam and in fact has its roots in Muhammad's practice, along with the practice of the so-called "rightly guided caliphs". Islam has always changed, so much so that the concept of bidaa seems quite absurd and nonsensical. For instance, it was Umar ibn Al-Khattab who banned mutaa marriage, not Muhammad, which is why Shias believe mutaa is allowed in Islam. Yet Sunnis are deeply convinced that mutaa is unIslamic, despite its ban being arguably a bidaa. And that's the irony of Salafist Islamism—it seeks to go back to the time of "pure Islam" of the "rightly guided" when in fact even those "rightly guided" were all too human and ruled by practicality and what they believed was best at the time.

I would go so far as to argue that because Islam requires survival above all else, and the argument can (and has, by many) be made that today in the age of globalization secularism will save all religions from themselves, it's very arguable that today secularism is actually the true Islam.
- nbhb
- Restricted
- offline
Islam IS Islamism
Reply #12 - December 21, 2015, 10:52 AM

Sure it's important what Islam was, but much more important what Islam is now and in what direction is moving.
In the end if you reduce it to its scripture, the Quran and the Hadiths, is there any difference between the two? Or we just came up with a term because of the sensitivity of the issue and also for the sake of political correctness?
- yeezevee
- Pub Regular
- offline
Islam IS Islamism
Reply #13 - December 21, 2015, 12:22 PM

this is a good one to watch... interesting to help both of them....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVl3BJoEoAU

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- ibn Bilal
- Global Moderator
- سلاسي هو المسيح
- offline
Islam IS Islamism
Reply #14 - December 21, 2015, 08:39 PM

Quote from: absurdist
It's as if we have finally figured out what Islam really is and must look back and judge other periods that are actually not all that Islamic. And that's exactly the intention of Islamists, particularly the Salafi/purist types. They want to erase all of Islamic history and think that only Muhammad's time and the time of the "rightly guided caliphs" are the True Islam, but after that Islam somehow strayed away from the Truth and shouldn't count.

Spot on, man.
- laico
- Member
- offline
Islam IS Islamism
Reply #15 - January 08, 2016, 12:58 PM

I've heard that Islamism is the attempt to enforce sharia on society in the same way a modern state does instead of the way sharia has traditionally been applied. Not sure how accurate this is however.
1« Previous thread | Next thread »