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 Poll

  • Question: Do you think Britain should leave the EU?  (Voting closed: March 18, 2016, 08:18 PM)
  • Yes - 9 (42.9%)
  • No - 12 (57.1%)
  • Undecided - 0 (0%)
  • Total Voters: 21

 Topic: Brexit - yes or no?

 (Read 44147 times)
  • Previous page 1 ... 8 9 1011 12 13 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #270 - June 29, 2016, 04:05 PM
    Quote from: suki on June 29, 2016, 11:53 AM
    Not sure what planet you and silentmancunian have been living on for the past week    - _ -    Racist attacks have increased since the referendum. My daughter was a victim of a racist attack at high school yesterday because of this also. the vids are definitely relevant. 

    SilentMancunian has explained his comments, not that it seemed necessary, as the post is clearly providing context from someone who obviously has experience of life in Manchester (his forum name, in case it wasn't obvious to everyone).

    As for my post that you quoted, suki, I don't think it warranted your aggressive reply. Of course, I am sorry your daughter was a victim of racism, so I'll take it on the chin. That probably sounds patronising, although it is totally sincere.

    In no way did I suggest racism hasn't increased since the referendum result. I was asking olweasel to clarify why these videos were posted, as he didn't provide any opinions in his post.

    I seem to be in a minority here, having dared to vote leave. I'm feeling like I have to justify my opinions. And I do not like the implication that I'm somehow to blame for any or all of these attacks, just because of how I voted.
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #271 - June 29, 2016, 04:08 PM
    There's no doubt that some of the incidents are related to euphoria from the ignorant racist section of society who hold racists views because they're racists and not because they voted leave in the EU referendum. Huh??
    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #272 - June 29, 2016, 04:12 PM
    It was my understanding that the racists were the ones that voted predominately to leave. Am I incorrect?
    "Work without hope draws nectar in a sieve, and hope without an object cannot live." -Coleridge

    http://sinofgreed.wordpress.com/
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #273 - June 29, 2016, 04:19 PM
    Quote from: toor on June 28, 2016, 11:29 PM
    Yeah, I started the fascination with your genitalia by saying that you sounded like a colossal dick. OK. Excellent reading comprehension there, Mr Teacher Man. Also:

    Yeah. Repudiation this ain't. No sirree. Racist attacks had been documented, and all you could say was 'they're stories, there's no way of knowing if they are true'. That's, like, a dictionary definition of repudiation, by the way.

    Anyway, this has gone on long enough. Apologies for the thread drift, everyone else.


    You are a comedian Toor - 'colossal dick' excellent humanitarian with such a witty retort.  I think only a 6 year old has called me a Mr Teacher Man or use 'dick' on the playground as an insult not least unprovoked. Hmmmm...we all have our own ways of communicating.  

    Yes 'repudiation'. If to question something is repudiation then yes I shall do that. I do that in all aspects of life. I challenge the validity and veracity of all claims including racism claims and Mr Toor if you use your reading comprehension skills I posted stories and links to news of documented incidents of racism following Brexit. I guess there are lesser things for which one could be mocked. Anyway, please continue to educateme on repudiation measures via PM.

    The Brexit has got a lot of people wound up, acting and speaking irrational, reading only what they want to read because of ideological angles they wish to perpetuate. Calm down - a bit at least. No need for getting hot under the collar. Just laugh and smile. It's ok. Life will go on. We will move on. Think of your family and children. They need you. The internet forums and tantrums can wait.
    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #274 - June 29, 2016, 04:23 PM
    I see none of the toor-Jedi  posts are on  "Brexit " ..so I see no reason to read them in this folder..   but I could gladly read this fascinating discussion in that Rant folder..
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #275 - June 29, 2016, 04:23 PM
    Quote from: movingfeet on June 29, 2016, 04:12 PM
    It was my understanding that the racists were the ones that voted predominately to leave. Am I incorrect?


    It is a common assumption that this is the case and I would not be surprised but how would one measure this? How to gather the evidence to verify such a claim. Of course, the news coming indicates that there are racist incidents following the EU referendum. BUT are they being reported now when they were not subject to newspaper headlines before as it makes for an interesting post-Brexit story? What are the statistics of racism post and pre-Brexit? Did the racists that are accused or shown even vote to Leave? Do they know how to vote?/ Lots of questions. Please link me to an article where there is a direct link - causation - I need to use it for a class. I'm looking too and will share these awful stories.

    But, facts - that's what we need rather than assumptions and guesses and stories that highlight issues now that existed even then.
    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #276 - June 29, 2016, 04:26 PM
    Quote from: movingfeet on June 29, 2016, 03:35 PM
    They are not cut from the same cloth and to generalize all SJW people under one brush is kind of ridiculous. If you want to go there, the ex-muslim community, particularly this council, could be considered SJW. So, no. There is a huge difference between an asshole that incites hate to a group of people that are generally fueled by empathy. I will digress and say that a faction of them are irrational hate mongering machines, but they should not be the ones given focus.


    I agree with what you are saying. I personally tend to use SJW identity to refer to only the extreme factions of social progressive movements, it is used as a pejorative term after all. Both sides do not have the same methods of reaching people but they do tend to dehumanize the other side which makes them similar in a way.

    Unfortunately, with any political movement, the people with the loudest and simplistic message will always get the most focus by media outlets and the more reasonable views tend to get dismissed.
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #277 - June 29, 2016, 04:27 PM
    Quote from: yeezevee on June 29, 2016, 04:23 PM
    I see none of the toor-Jedi  posts are on  "Brexit " ..so I see no reason to read them in this folder..   but I could gladly read this fascinating discussion in that Rant folder..


    No you are wrong Yeezeee - it is everything to do with Brexit.

    It is not just about voting IN or OUT. Not just about REMAIN or Leave.

    There is the human element to it as well - sociology 101 - how people ract and overreact. Yes it is RANTING but is human to rant about topics your passionate about and hate to see when the other side puts forward rational argument. Why hide this face of the human nature and byproduct of the referendum.

    Lots of people are ranting, high tempered and irrational because of the BREXIT - that is the real result.
    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #278 - June 29, 2016, 04:43 PM
    http://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2016/06/25/483362200/brexit-whats-race-got-to-do-with-it

    http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/27/europe/racist-attacks-post-brexit/

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/14/leave-eu-cartoon-racist-nazi-brexit-antisemitism-1945

    Justification for it from The Telegraph:
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2016/06/27/theres-a-lot-more-to-brexit-than-racism-and-students-have-failed/

    Two counter arguments regarding LGBTQ people:
    http://time.com/4364005/ian-mckellen-brexit-gay/
    http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/why-gay-people-like-me-shouldnt-listen-to-boris-johnson-and-his-calls-for-us-to-vote-to-leave-the-eu-a6951916.html
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-boris-johnson-urges-gay-people-to-vote-for-brexit-lgbt-rights-a6950941.html
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/7644851.stm
    "Work without hope draws nectar in a sieve, and hope without an object cannot live." -Coleridge

    http://sinofgreed.wordpress.com/
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #279 - June 29, 2016, 04:48 PM
    Some articles from news sites that I am unfamiliar with until research earlier:

    http://www.gaystarnews.com/article/first-poles-gays/?fb_ref=0hWqsKDiRS-Facebook#gs.G50bTVs
    http://www.vox.com/2016/6/29/12053488/uk-police-hate-crimes-57-percent-brexit-vote
    "Work without hope draws nectar in a sieve, and hope without an object cannot live." -Coleridge

    http://sinofgreed.wordpress.com/
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #280 - June 29, 2016, 04:51 PM
    Quote from: SilentMancunian on June 29, 2016, 04:26 PM
    I agree with what you are saying. I personally tend to use SJW identity to refer to only the extreme factions of social progressive movements, it is used as a pejorative term after all. Both sides do not have the same methods of reaching people but they do tend to dehumanize the other side which makes them similar in a way.

    Unfortunately, with any political movement, the people with the loudest and simplistic message will always get the most focus by media outlets and the more reasonable views tend to get dismissed.


    I concede and agree.
    "Work without hope draws nectar in a sieve, and hope without an object cannot live." -Coleridge

    http://sinofgreed.wordpress.com/
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #281 - June 29, 2016, 05:49 PM
    Quote from: movingfeet on June 29, 2016, 04:12 PM
    It was my understanding that the racists were the ones that voted predominately to leave. Am I incorrect?


    It is interesting how people tend to dismiss the idea that people who are pro-immigration can also be racist. If you go to a place like Saudi Arabia, you will find that immigrants (not including ex-pats) are the only ones who are allowed to do jobs that the Saudis believe to beneath them. The only difference in western societies and Saudi Arabia on this issue, is that Saudi Arabia prevents Arabs from doing these kind of job whereas Westerners deter their citizens from wanting to do them by making them seem less attractive and not suitable for a respectable person. It is essentially psychologically ingrained in our society that these kind of jobs are not suitable for them and it is better off letting immigrants do them instead. The drive towards getting more people into higher education has certainly made society more dismissive for jobs that are lower skilled, which is most suitable for the less academic. It is this dismissive and degrading attitudes towards people within these professions which has led to the current negative view towards immigrants and pro-immigrant policies.

    There is no doubt that many people who voted Brexit are racist, but just like how the more extreme SJWs get the most attention so does the most extreme Brexit views. If the rhetoric around Brexit was a lot more balanced, by including arguments from the Left for Brexit, there wouldn't be overtly racist people thinking that they are majority in the society because there side has won and therefore have a right to be racist assholes.
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #282 - June 29, 2016, 06:02 PM
    Quote from: jrg on June 29, 2016, 04:05 PM
    SilentMancunian has explained his comments, not that it seemed necessary, as the post is clearly providing context from someone who obviously has experience of life in Manchester (his forum name, in case it wasn't obvious to everyone).

    As for my post that you quoted, suki, I don't think it warranted your aggressive reply. Of course, I am sorry your daughter was a victim of racism, so I'll take it on the chin. That probably sounds patronising, although it is totally sincere.

    In no way did I suggest racism hasn't increased since the referendum result. I was asking olweasel to clarify why these videos were posted, as he didn't provide any opinions in his post.

    I seem to be in a minority here, having dared to vote leave. I'm feeling like I have to justify my opinions. And I do not like the implication that I'm somehow to blame for any or all of these attacks, just because of how I voted.

       

    I wasn't being aggressive lol   Cry      far away hug
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #283 - June 29, 2016, 06:03 PM
    I do believe that there are some articles that I posted for Jedi which do support Brexit on a liberal standpoint. Be that as it may, I do not give in to hysteria and I try to read every vantage point. Racism is not dead in any party in the Western world, the only real difference is that the right wing parties tend to be more open about it and we view them as "extreme" only because they are extremely vocal. Taking a step back, Saudi Arabia is disgusting and is ten times worse than the UK and the USA combined.
    "Work without hope draws nectar in a sieve, and hope without an object cannot live." -Coleridge

    http://sinofgreed.wordpress.com/
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #284 - June 29, 2016, 06:03 PM
    Quote from: suki on June 29, 2016, 06:02 PM
       

    I wasn't being aggressive lol   Cry      far away hug


    It's ok, suki. I understand your anger. It's not easy dealing with being a victim of racially motivated attacks.
    "Work without hope draws nectar in a sieve, and hope without an object cannot live." -Coleridge

    http://sinofgreed.wordpress.com/
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #285 - June 29, 2016, 06:05 PM
    Saudis and other Gulf Arabs are not pro-immigration, if you take immigration to mean "the action of coming to live permanently in a foreign country." Gulf Arabs are pro-temporary foreign workers, which is a huge difference. In fact it is quite the opposite of immigration. Temporary foreign workers are disenfranchised and powerless. They're effectively outsourced labour in our own backyard. They even tend to get paid less than permanent residents and citizens.

    I can't speak for the UK, but in Canada, the temporary foreign worker program was put in place by the Conservatives, the very same people who have tightened immigration policies.
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #286 - June 29, 2016, 06:12 PM
    Yeah, they are in no way comparable to the West. These are countries that do not even welcome in refugees following the same religion as them.
    "Work without hope draws nectar in a sieve, and hope without an object cannot live." -Coleridge

    http://sinofgreed.wordpress.com/
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #287 - June 29, 2016, 06:23 PM
    Quote from: SilentMancunian on June 29, 2016, 01:09 PM
    I'm sorry to hear that your daughter was on the receiving end of a racist attack recently, but I wasn't being dismissive of the rise of racial abuse since the referendum result. I was merely providing more context to what might have occurred in this particular situation. Considering I was born and raised in Manchester and I commute on the Tram, I aware of the way some young males act on the tram when they are told off by another member of public. It should also be noted that racist incidents do tend to rise when the England Football team loses in a major competition and this incident occurred the morning after England lost to Iceland. Not all racist incidents are linked to Brexit, racism has actually been on the rise for a while and incidents like these are becoming more and more frequently, especially in major cities like Manchester.

    http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/its-not-acceptable-any-terms-11539151



    Thanks SilentMancunian, oh my girls are used to it..  I do though think it is very likely those drunken thugs were reacting badly to both of the euro exits    : ) x
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #288 - June 29, 2016, 06:34 PM
    I might be wrong in calling Saudi Arabia pro-immigration, but certainly the societal attitudes towards the jobs that immigrants take are not that dissimilar. They have certainly been degraded and the people who work in these sectors would certainly not take as much pride in these jobs as people did in the past.

    Saudi Arabia is a racist society, there attitude towards temporary foreign workers is pretty similar to Britain's in the 1950's/60s, from what I've read. The foreign workers, who mainly came from the Indian subcontinent, was expected to leave as soon the work has ended which is why there was never any policies in place to accommodate them and integrate them into society. The essential difference between 50's/60's Britain and modern day Saudi Arabia is the lack of authoritarian regime and a lack of a proper immigration policy.
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #289 - June 29, 2016, 06:43 PM
    Same for the US in the 50's/60's, but we are not talking about the past for the West. We are discussing the here and now and nobody disagreed with you that the West is still very racist. It is just not comparable to Saudi Arabia in many ways.
    "Work without hope draws nectar in a sieve, and hope without an object cannot live." -Coleridge

    http://sinofgreed.wordpress.com/
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #290 - June 29, 2016, 07:02 PM
    Quote from: movingfeet on June 29, 2016, 06:03 PM
    I do believe that there are some articles that I posted for Jedi which do support Brexit on a liberal standpoint. Be that as it may, I do not give in to hysteria and I try to read every vantage point. Racism is not dead in any party in the Western world, the only real difference is that the right wing parties tend to be more open about it and we view them as "extreme" only because they are extremely vocal. Taking a step back, Saudi Arabia is disgusting and is ten times worse than the UK and the USA combined.


    I would say the right wing are just more honest about being racist than the left. The Tories and Labour are both establishment parties who just use political spin to justify policies, which are politically central, to their voter base. A prime example would be David Cameron linking Extremism to Muslim woman not speaking English so that his voter base won't be to bothered about Government providing more resources to immigrants who haven't learnt English yet. Which you usually would expect Right wing Conservatives to be against, as they would expect immigrants to pay for the English lesson out of their own pocket.

    Quote from: movingfeet on June 29, 2016, 06:43 PM
    Same for the US in the 50's/60's, but we are not talking about the past for the West. We are discussing the here and now and nobody disagreed with you that the West is still very racist. It is just not comparable to Saudi Arabia in many ways.


    I'm not trying to compare British and Saudi society as a whole, my point in my previous post is specifically about the social attitude towards low skilled jobs in Britain that would traditional be for the working class that has now been degraded and no longer seem appealing for British citizens. When I brought up Saudi, I mentioned that these jobs are not taking by the poor Saudis and are given to foreigners who are treated like shit while they are in the country.
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #291 - June 29, 2016, 07:04 PM
    The encouragement of foreign people to do these jobs over it citizens is the only comparison that I am making.
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #292 - June 29, 2016, 07:14 PM
    Quote from: suki on June 29, 2016, 06:23 PM

    Thanks SilentMancunian, oh my girls are used to it..  I do though think it is very likely those drunken thugs were reacting badly to both of the euro exits    : ) x


    It is highly possible they were reacting to neither, and, are just a bunch of insecure young males who don't know how to react in a sensible manner when someone criticises their behaviour.
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #293 - June 29, 2016, 07:17 PM
    A point which we understood, but do not feel is on the same scale of Saudi Arabia's grotesque laws and blatant human rights abuses. Same attitude in influential circles, but two different animals completely. And on your other portion regarding politics. Yes, that is what the left does. Hide their own views and caters to the voter base. While most politicians do that anyway, left or right, the right has a tendency to not care about certain topics in regards to how they feel. That is how I see it though.
    "Work without hope draws nectar in a sieve, and hope without an object cannot live." -Coleridge

    http://sinofgreed.wordpress.com/
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #294 - June 29, 2016, 07:19 PM
    Quote from: Jedi on June 27, 2016, 05:56 PM
    What's my background?


    A black one which makes the image hard to see since the cloak is black too  finmad
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #295 - June 29, 2016, 07:30 PM
    Quote from: movingfeet on June 29, 2016, 06:03 PM
    I do believe that there are some articles that I posted for Jedi which do support Brexit on a liberal standpoint. Be that as it may, I do not give in to hysteria and I try to read every vantage point. Racism is not dead in any party in the Western world, the only real difference is that the right wing parties tend to be more open about it and we view them as "extreme" only because they are extremely vocal. Taking a step back, Saudi Arabia is disgusting and is ten times worse than the UK and the USA combined.


    Thanks for the link movingfeet...this is interesting.

    I will read it with pleasure.

    Interestingly, many leftist-socialist teachers and some NHS workers that I kno (about 7  dance) justify making immigration a key issue by stating that membership of the EU has made conditions for the proletariat even worse with lo wages; worse conditions and worse hours with workers being exploited and means for social mobility denied. Let's hear ALL vies. They're interesting.
    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #296 - June 29, 2016, 07:31 PM
    Quote from: bogart on June 29, 2016, 07:19 PM
    A black one which makes the image hard to see since the cloak is black too  finmad


    And it's night time and you're blind. Hard to see so see with your heart.  Huh? Ne Age mumbo jumbo.
    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #297 - June 29, 2016, 07:35 PM
    I think everyone would agree with how vile a place Saudi is.

    It seems like the more openly Conservative you are the more you can get away with. There seems to be a lot of subtle racism coming from Conservatives without any backlash, but a pinch of anti Semitism from a Liberal and chaos occurs.

    It seems like image and perception of what it means to have a Conservative or Liberal identity are the point of reference of whether a person's action should be vilified or not. Saudi has gone and taken things several steps further and allow themselves to be seen as outdated which allows others to tolerate their actions. Basically cultural relatvisim is the norm, as long as we see them as being backwards the longer we tolerate their actions.
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #298 - June 29, 2016, 08:06 PM
    Quote from: SilentMancunian on June 29, 2016, 07:14 PM
    It is highly possible they were reacting to neither, and, are just a bunch of insecure young males who don't know how to react in a sensible manner when someone criticises their behaviour.


    Ok, if ya say so..    Smiley  x
  • Brexit - yes or no?
     Reply #299 - June 29, 2016, 08:36 PM
    Quote from: Jedi on June 29, 2016, 07:30 PM
    Thanks for the link movingfeet...this is interesting.

    I will read it with pleasure.

    Interestingly, many leftist-socialist teachers and some NHS workers that I kno (about 7  dance) justify making immigration a key issue by stating that membership of the EU has made conditions for the proletariat even worse with lo wages; worse conditions and worse hours with workers being exploited and means for social mobility denied. Let's hear ALL vies. They're interesting.


    Yeah, that is basically what I gathered from almost all liberal and left publications in favor of  Brexit. Glad I could provide some good reading material.

    Quote from: SilentMancunian on June 29, 2016, 07:35 PM
    I think everyone would agree with how vile a place Saudi is.

    It seems like the more openly Conservative you are the more you can get away with. There seems to be a lot of subtle racism coming from Conservatives without any backlash, but a pinch of anti Semitism from a Liberal and chaos occurs.

    It seems like image and perception of what it means to have a Conservative or Liberal identity are the point of reference of whether a person's action should be vilified or not. Saudi has gone and taken things several steps further and allow themselves to be seen as outdated which allows others to tolerate their actions. Basically cultural relatvisim is the norm, as long as we see them as being backwards the longer we tolerate their actions.


    Good point and I like it.
    "Work without hope draws nectar in a sieve, and hope without an object cannot live." -Coleridge

    http://sinofgreed.wordpress.com/
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