what are the seven heavens?

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what are the seven heavens?
OP - March 15, 2016, 04:50 PM

When I was muslim, I thought that the seven heavens referred to the sky above us, that is, whatever that's visible when we look up, ie the observable universe in outer space, as the first heaven, and the six other layers of heavens were ghayb, that they are mystical levels of heavens that man would never physically see. But now i stumble upon this verse: "See ye not how Allah has created the seven heavens one above another" (71:15) which suggest that the author(s) of the Quran could actually see seven layers of "heavens" stacked one on top of the other!

So what layers were they seeing? Because as far as i know outer space is not made up of layers, either actual layers or even merely visible layers?

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Reply #1 - March 15, 2016, 05:07 PM

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Heavens

This refers to 2 Enoch and I wonder if this is where the Qur'an gets the idea from.

Patricia Crone and Annette Yoshiko Reed have written about the influence of Enoch literature on the Qur'an but I don't think they mention this.

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Reply #2 - March 15, 2016, 06:03 PM

Just to add: HM gave us chapter and verse on how the seven heavens were classically understood here and in his next post on that thread.

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Reply #3 - March 16, 2016, 12:11 AM

Quote from: zeca on March 15, 2016, 05:07 PM
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Heavens

This refers to 2 Enoch and I wonder if this is where the Qur'an gets the idea from.

Patricia Crone and Annette Yoshiko Reed have written about the influence of Enoch literature on the Qur'an but I don't think they mention this.

hmm... but these seven heavens are "mystical" seven heavens, stuff that are unseen by normal men. the part of the verse 71:15 that makes me wonder is where "Allah" says to the audience "see ye not", as if the audience of the Quran can see them for themselves that there are actually seven heavens above them. So I was wondering whether there's actually some visible phenomena in the skies that the 7th century audience of the Quran interprets as being seven layers of heavens?

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Reply #4 - March 16, 2016, 12:17 AM

I read somewhere that this can be found in Hindi scriptures, that the concept is perhaps older than Abrahamic faiths.

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Reply #5 - March 16, 2016, 04:53 AM

I understand that the seven heavens were commonly thought to refer to the orbits of the planets in ancient thought. I think Ptolemy and Aristotle referred to levels of heavens (somewhere around 7) in their works. It definitely is a theme in Christian literature if you read works like the apocolypse of Peter and Jewish literature (Enoch as previously mentioned).

The Quran says the nearest (or nether) heaven is where the stars are located. Is this necessarily the lowest heaven? Or could it mean nearest to Allah's throne? (Highest heaven)

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Reply #6 - March 16, 2016, 10:10 AM

Quote from: kephas on March 15, 2016, 04:50 PM
When I was muslim, I thought that the seven heavens referred to the sky above us,....

..., and the six other layers of heavens were ghayb, that they are mystical levels of heavens that man would never physically see.

.......But now i stumble upon this verse: "See ye not how Allah has created the seven heavens one above another" (71:15) which suggest that the author(s) of the Quran could actually see seven layers of "heavens" stacked one on top of the other!

So what layers were they seeing? Because as far as i know outer space is not made up of layers, either actual layers or even merely visible layers?

kephas opens a Can of worms from Quran on on Number 7.. the seven heavens.,

Dear kephas when I say Quran has many "Cans of worms" and this "seven heavens" is one of many Cans, this doesn't mean Quran literally really has many Cans of worms. I am sure you understand what I am saying. I read Quran "UP & DOWN and IN & OUT" innumerable times. What Quran means to me is this and more ..

1). Quran is NOT the word of allah/god/voodoo doll/spaghetti monster. And... and that goes to Quran and that goes to all so-called religious books. No book and no sound is from allah/god/voodoo doll....whatever ......described in so called religious scriptures

2). Quran is a book of its time., It has many authors and surprising it appears that authors of Quran never edited it but added on top of what was there.

3). Much of Quran is copy/pasted from many other religious books/sources/sayings of that time that were there in and around Arabian peninsula and these statements on “seven heavens “ is one of many copy/pasted verses.

With that let me add those Quran verses that talks about this “Seven Heavens”

Quote
(1) He it is Who created for you all that is in the earth, and He directed Himself to the heaven, so He made them complete seven heavens, and He knows all things. …….Al-Baqara, Verse #29

(2) The seven heavens declare His glory and the earth (too), and those who are in them; and there is not a single thing but glorifies Him with His praise, but you do not understand their glorification; surely He is Forbearing, Forgiving. ………Al-Israa, Verse #44

(3) And certainly We made above you seven heavens; and never are We heedless of creation. …………. Al-Muminoon, Verse #17

(4) Say: Who is the Lord of the seven heavens and the Lord of the mighty dominion? ...................…..Al-Muminoon,.. Verse #86.

(5) So He ordained them seven heavens in two periods, and revealed in every heaven its affair; and We adorned the lower heaven with brilliant stars and (made it) to guard; that is the decree of the Mighty, the Knowing. …................ Fussilat, . Verse #12

(6) Allah is He Who created seven heavens, and of the earth the like of them; the decree continues to descend among them, that you may know that Allah has power over all things and that Allah indeed encompasses all things in (His) knowledge. ...........At-Talaaq , Verse #12

(7) Who created the seven heavens one above another; you see no incongruity in the creation of the Beneficent Allah; then look again, can you see any disorder? … ...........Al-Mulk, Verse #3

(8 ) Do you not see how Allah has created the seven heavens, one above another, ................Nooh, Verse #15

Also please read posts at this link http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=4537.0 that talks about many such miraculous statements in Quran ., I will write more on this where Quran preaching fools consider it as one of the miraculous verses of Quran. Fools in 21st century pick up some words that were used to sing a song in Arabic poetic works of 7th century and they make it as miraculous scientific revelation of Quran and talk nonsense on web.

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Reply #7 - March 18, 2016, 05:32 AM

Quote from: three on March 16, 2016, 12:17 AM
I read somewhere that this can be found in Hindi scriptures, that the concept is perhaps older than Abrahamic faiths.

yeah i saw that in the wikipedia link zeca posted, but they included stuff like "heavenly realm" and "realm of brahma" so i don't think that they could be referring to visible phenomena

Quote from: justperusing on March 16, 2016, 04:53 AM
I understand that the seven heavens were commonly thought to refer to the orbits of the planets in ancient thought. I think Ptolemy and Aristotle referred to levels of heavens (somewhere around 7) in their works. It definitely is a theme in Christian literature if you read works like the apocolypse of Peter and Jewish literature (Enoch as previously mentioned).

The Quran says the nearest (or nether) heaven is where the stars are located. Is this necessarily the lowest heaven? Or could it mean nearest to Allah's throne? (Highest heaven)

one the first sites i stumbled upon when googling "seven heavens quran" was ali sina's explanation of the orbits of the seven planets to be the seven heavens http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina40712.htm. but were the planets, and their orbits, visible by the 7th century audience of the quran?

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Reply #8 - March 18, 2016, 09:40 AM

Quote
but were the planets, and their orbits, visible by the 7th century audience of the quran?

Five of them are visible with the naked eye. Plus the sun and moon, which obviously also "swim along, each in their rounded course" around earth. This is how the number 7 is reached.

We have one day of the week per 'planet' (even though two are not planets).

Sol= Sun = Sun's day = Sunday
Luna = Moon = Moon's day = Monday
Mars = Tiu's day ( English war god equivalent to Roman god of war Mars ) = Tuesday
Mercury =Woden's day= Wednesday
Jupiter = Thor's day =Thursday
Venus = Freya's day (Goddess of love equivalent to aphrodite) = Friday
Saturn = Saturn's day = Saturday

If you didn't know any better, each of these 'planets' looks quite like it orbits the (probably flat) earth, occupying its own celestial sphere - AKA heaven.
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Reply #9 - March 18, 2016, 04:18 PM

So the stars were at the same level as the sun?

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Reply #10 - March 18, 2016, 05:05 PM

Seems more like the sun was on the same level as planets and the moon.
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Reply #11 - March 18, 2016, 05:16 PM

The stars were generally considered just some kind of sparkly background on the dome of the firmament. The dome of the firmament that was raised up and separated from the earth. The separation of heavens and earth in the quran, far from being an amazing description of the big bang, is describing what many myths before it described.

The sun occupies one of the 7 heavens/celestial spheres. As if it were a planet. Or, to be more precise, as if the sun, and the planets, were moons of earth. This is why Muhammed is impressed that one of these 'moons' (the sun), never overtakes another of these moons (the actual moon), and takes it as an ayah.
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Reply #12 - March 18, 2016, 06:17 PM

So the firmament was where the sky ended and the seven heavens began? Did each heaven have a firmament in between them?

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Reply #13 - March 18, 2016, 07:06 PM

I picture the firmament above the 7 heavens. Like a ceiling. And if we are going by a hadith, on top of this is more water (which I think is why the sky is blue, and it rains), and on top of that are 8 massive mountain goats. On top of the goats is Allah's throne. NASA still have not discovered the mountain goats, which just goes to show how far ahead of science it is.

Starting with 7 'things' in the sky that look like they orbit the earth, i guess a number of related beliefs probably evolved.
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Reply #14 - March 18, 2016, 07:06 PM

It is easy to look down on people of that time, but the fact that the stars appeared fixed, was the reason why geocentricism was held as true by almost everyone.

from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geocentric_model

Quote
Adherence to the geocentric model stemmed largely from several important observations. First of all, if the Earth did move, then one ought to be able to observe the shifting of the fixed stars due to stellar parallax. In short, if the earth was moving, the shapes of the constellations should change considerably over the course of a year. If they did not appear to move, the stars are either much farther away than the Sun and the planets than previously conceived, making their motion undetectable, or in reality they are not moving at all. Because the stars were actually much further away than Greek astronomers postulated (making movement extremely subtle), stellar parallax was not detected until the 19th century. Therefore, the Greeks chose the simpler of the two explanations. The lack of any observable parallax was considered a fatal flaw in any non-geocentric theory.

Even after Gallileo invented the telescope, it wasn't only the Church, but most astronomers of that time, felt that Heliocentricism could not be proven.
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Reply #15 - March 18, 2016, 07:21 PM

Quote from: puzzlelover on March 18, 2016, 07:06 PM
...............that the stars appeared fixed,...........

well any one who reads Quran verses where "Stars " are mentioned could easily figure out why the Quran writers wrote those verses., Quran writers wrote those verses to praise that allah god in a poetic way and to reinforce faith in newly joined folks.....

Quote
(1) And He it is Who has made the stars for you that you might follow the right way thereby in the darkness of the land and the sea; truly We have made plain the communications for a people who know. …………… Al-An'aam, ……… Verse #97

(2) Surely your Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six periods of time, and He is firm in power; He throws the veil of night over the day, which it pursues incessantly; and (He created) the sun and the moon and the stars, made subservient by His command; surely His is the creation and the command; blessed is Allah, the Lord of the worlds. ………..Al-A'raaf, ……… Verse #54

(3) When Yusuf said to his father: O my father! surely I saw eleven stars and the sun and the moon-- I saw them making obeisance to me. ………Yusuf……… Verse #4

(4) And He has made subservient for you the night and the day and the sun and the moon, and the stars are made subservient by His commandment; most surely there are signs in this for a people who ponder; …….. An-Nahl………… Verse #12.

(5) And landmarks; and by the stars they find the right way. ………An-Nahl…. Verse #16

(6) Do you not see that Allah is He, Whom obeys whoever is in the heavens and whoever is in the earth, and the sun and the moon and the stars, and the mountains and the trees, and the animals and many of the people; and many there are against whom chastisement has become necessary; and whomsoever Allah abases, there is none who can make him honorable; surely Allah does what He pleases. ……….Al-Hajj, …….. Verse #18

(7) Surely We have adorned the nearest heaven with an adornment, the stars, … ………..As-Saaffaat, ….. Verse #6

(8 ) Then he looked at the stars, looking up once, .... As-Saaffaat, ………, Verse #88..

(9) So He ordained them seven heavens in two periods, and revealed in every heaven its affair; and We adorned the lower heaven with brilliant stars and (made it) to guard; that is the decree of the Mighty, the Knowing. ……… Fussilat……… Verse #12

(10) And in the night, give Him glory too, and at the setting of the stars. …….. At-Tur, ……….. Verse #49

(11) But nay! I swear by the falling of stars; ............ Al-Waaqia, Verse #75

(12) And that we sought to reach heaven, but we found it filled with strong guards and flaming stars. Al-Jinn ……, Verse #8 [/b]

(13) So when the stars are made to lose their light, ……… Al-Mursalaat………. Verse #8 [/b]

(14) And when the stars darken, ….At-Takwir, ….. Verse #2

(15) But nay! I swear by the stars, ……….At-Takwir, …………. Verse #15

(16) And when the stars become dispersed, … …Al-Infitaar, ……. Verse #2

(17) I swear by the mansions of the stars, …………Al-Burooj, ………… Verse #1

All that is nothing to do with modern astronomy and astrophysics ., Only brain dead religious preaching fools claim such nonsense "that these so-called scriptures have those modern scientific discoveries .."

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Reply #16 - March 19, 2016, 01:25 AM

Quote from: dr_sloth on March 18, 2016, 05:16 PM
The stars were generally considered just some kind of sparkly background on the dome of the firmament. The dome of the firmament that was raised up and separated from the earth. The separation of heavens and earth in the quran, far from being an amazing description of the big bang, is describing what many myths before it described.

(Clicky for piccy!)

but doesn't the quran say that stars are in the lowest heaven (67:5)?

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Reply #17 - March 19, 2016, 07:19 AM

yeah. i think that is because shooting stars (that are missiles for jinns) look like they are close.
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Reply #18 - March 19, 2016, 07:00 PM

Also, The quran or hadith says: Shooting stars and I believe comets too are missiles used to drive away the devil when he approaches the throne of God. Now if it is shooting stars, most shooting stars or meteor showers are actually dust in the upper atmosphere burning up, so if these are missiles then the devil is the size of a needle pin.

If they believe comets are missiles: Comets are giant ice blocks, this is better, but every comet has a path that orbits the sun but many take atleast 100 years to return on an orbit that we know: in this case, the devil returns to god on a perfectly cyclic pattern. The comets we see are from giant ice blocks that form a massive ice cloud that I believe is beyond the milkyway or beyond our solar system, I do not remember, regardless of which one, it is saying the ice cloud is the outter boundaries of our universe, after which is Heaven: THIS IS INSANE, because the reality is there are billions of ice clouds all over the universe which is so wrong because there is more space time beyond each one.

BEST FOR LAST: When judgement day arrives, the stars will come CRASHING DOWN, this assumes the sun is not a star, and on top of that, the word choice is very specific proving they believe in the geocentric view Earth is center and everything else is above us. There, I just beat the challenge of the Quran that says If you find a single error in this book then it is not from God. There I proved the quran is false, but ofcourse some Muslim will say I need to read it in FUCKING Arabic.
- That is also messed up because we need to read arabic to understand the super minute details of what the book says but you can read in English to understand the main ideas, and the main idea is that it was written by Camel herding Fucking Raping Men!

As a scientist I can see farther than any human before me by standing on the shoulders of giants (previous scientists); As a religious follower I can not see what is right in-front of me, even when others INDEPENDENTLY see the same thing!
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Reply #19 - March 19, 2016, 07:35 PM

Quote
Camel herding Fucking Raping Men

Ricky Gervais voice 'bit racist'

No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
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Reply #20 - March 20, 2016, 05:02 AM

Quote from: dr_sloth on March 19, 2016, 07:19 AM
yeah. i think that is because shooting stars (that are missiles for jinns) look like they are close.

So you agree the stars are in the lowest heaven? Because you said earlier:

Quote from: dr_sloth on March 18, 2016, 05:16 PM
The stars were generally considered just some kind of sparkly background on the dome of the firmament. The dome of the firmament that was raised up and separated from the earth.

Quote from: dr_sloth on March 18, 2016, 07:06 PM
I picture the firmament above the 7 heavens. Like a ceiling.

I'm confused

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Reply #21 - March 20, 2016, 06:42 AM

Quote from: yeezevee on March 18, 2016, 07:21 PM
He throws the veil of night over the day, which it pursues incessantly;... Al-A'raaf, ……… Verse #54

yeez i'm glad that you brought that up, since that's another verse i've been wondering about. Since we're in the topic of astronomical observations in the Quran, i'd think that it'll be okay for me to ask the question is this thread.

Verse 7:54 says that night pursues the day "incessantly" or "rapidly" or "urgently" in different translations. And then there's verse 36:40, which states "nor can the night outstrip the day" or overtake/outrun/outpace according to different translations.

So by reading these verses, the author's saying that the night rapidly pursues or alternates daytime, but the night can never overtake it.

but we know that during winters nighttime is greater than daytime, and during summers daytime is greater than nightime. And during solstices the poles either experience 24 hour daytime or 24 hour nightime. Doesn't this mean that instead of nighttime pursuing daytime "incessantly", the "pursuit" slows down during summer? And that nighttime manages to "overtake" daytime in winter, to the extent that there's a 24 hour nighttime during the solstices at one of the 2 poles?

Were the authors of the quran not aware of this? If so, how? It would make sense if the quran was written somewhere near the the equator, where there's a year round equal daytime and nighttime daily. But since the quran is written in the northern hemisphere, then wouldn't the authors notice that daytime and nightime length alternates between seasons?

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Reply #22 - March 20, 2016, 07:34 AM

Quote from: justperusing on March 20, 2016, 05:02 AM
I'm confused

There are 7 classical planets that everybody across times and cultures noticed were special when compared with the other shiny things, and a story had to be made to explain it. I believe that usually the story was that there are 7 orbs or spheres, or heavens, and the outermost had the shiny things embedded in it. The Islamic story might be different, but because everything can be interpreted a million different ways, and because we can allow the possibility of inconsistencies in the quran, I wouldn't rule anything too solid about the specific order in or out

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_planet
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Reply #23 - March 20, 2016, 12:30 PM

Quote from: kephas on March 20, 2016, 06:42 AM
yeez i'm glad that you brought that up, since that's another verse i've been wondering about. Since we're in the topic of astronomical observations in the Quran, i'd think that it'll be okay for me to ask the question is this thread.................

Friends we all who writes and reads CEMB forum know well that Quran is NOT book of science or book of scientific facts. So our goal should be NOT criticizing Quran w.r.t so-called scientific statements in it. Alsothere is no good reason to criticize those cave dwellers who put that book together. It is simply a book of its time that too it is NOT written by one guy but different people. They added statements in to it without reading what was there in it hence you have plenty of repetitive statements in it And we must realize here that it is NOTHING to do with so-called Muhammad...

Frankly speaking same thing goes to other religious books..

Christ has not written New Testament and he is nothing to do with what is in those books of NT ., Moses has not written Old Testament and he is nothing to do with what is in those books of OT ... It is only fools and high school drop outs of 20th and 21st century that extract modern science out of these so-called religious scriptures.

So our aim and goal should be criticizing these fools of 20 and 21st century and educating high school kids +1st and 2nd year college students about the pit falls of reading science out of the articles/web tubes written by these religion preaching fools. Unfortunately in recent times every one is hitting Islam because of these preachers in Islam who are more active in extracting Science out nonsense statement of Quran .

So I argue with friends Let us not look for science related statements in Quran and then heckle it. Instead what we should do is INSULT IDIOTS who extract Science out of Quran.

Quote from: afghan hassan on March 19, 2016, 07:00 PM
Also, The quran or hadith says: Shooting stars and I believe comets too are missiles used to drive away the devil when he approaches the throne of God. Now if it is shooting stars, .......

Hello afghan hassan.,Let us put that verses here

Surah Al-Mulk verse 5
Quote
   وَلَقَدْ زَيَّنَّا السَّمَاءَ الدُّنْيَا بِمَصَابِيحَ وَجَعَلْنَاهَا رُجُومًا لِّلشَّيَاطِينِ ۖ وَأَعْتَدْنَا لَهُمْ عَذَابَ السَّعِيرِ

Yusuf Ali :    And we have, (from of old), adorned the lowest heaven with Lamps, and We have made such (Lamps) (as) missiles to drive away the Evil Ones, and have prepared for them the Penalty of the Blazing Fire.

Shakir :    And certainly We have adorned this lower heaven with lamps and We have made these missiles for the Shaitans, and We have prepared for them the chastisement of burning.

Mohsin Khan: :    And indeed We have adorned the nearest heaven with lamps , and We have made such lamps (as) missiles to drive away the Shayatin (devils), and have prepared for them the torment of the blazing Fire.

Some of these fools who get science out of that nonsense goes like this.. if some one says this

Quote
"there is a light at the end of the tunnel"

these brainless internet savoy Islamic fools who preach science out of Quran will come up with 10 pages modern science

"Light" in that statement means .. gamma rays, x-rays all the way to microwaves and radio waves and everything in the middle .. and
tunnel in that statement means .. Quantum tunneling......nuclear tunneling ...tunnels in space and what not...

what I mean to say is you can not help these idiots and the only thing we can do is educate the readers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HONF5YsqdUs

stupid fools .. After their M. S. Programs, they can not survive in competitive science so they go in to extracting science from books that were written by some cave dwellers some 1000s of years ago..

with best wishes
yeezevee

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I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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